Transfer of holdings

[DM B]

Situation:

Regent A has a holding (2) in province X.

- he transfers 1 lvl to regent B --> he now has a holding (1) in province X.

or

- he transfers 2 lvls to regent B --> he now has a holding (0) or no holding at all in province X.

Which is better? Should regent A retain some level of influence in a province even if he transfers his entire holding (i.e. he's left with a lvl 0 holding). We did that in RoE I, but not in RoE II. What do you think is more appropriate?

If you transfer a lvl 0 holding, you will NOT get to keep a lvl 0 holding; we're talking lvl 1+ holdings here...

[X-DM Jon]

I think that a level 0 holding is an existing stage of any holding. It's the foundation so to speak.
 It doesn't just disappear.

 I.e. a level 2 holding contains: One level 2 holding, one level 1 holding and one level 0 holding.

 And I think it should be necessary that another realm already have established a presence (lvl 0 holding) in order to be on the receiving end of a holding transfer. Otherwise you're essentially skipping past the create holding rule.
 The only exception is the transfer of all holdings, which includes the foundation lvl 0 holding.

[X-Tuornen/LF (Geir)]

Good Point!

So,
if A has 2. holdings and B has no holdings.
They can agree that A should transfer 2.holdings, leaving A with no holdings.

Or,
if A has 2.holdings and B has 0.holdings.
They can agree transfer of 1.holding, they would then have 1 each, or 2.holdings, leaving A with a 0.holding.

[X-SASI/Orthien Tane (Rune)]

I think that a level 0 holding is an existing stage of any holding. It's the foundation so to speak.
 It doesn't just disappear.

 I.e. a level 2 holding contains: One level 2 holding, one level 1 holding and one level 0 holding.

 And I think it should be necessary that another realm already have established a presence (lvl 0 holding) in order to be on the receiving end of a holding transfer. Otherwise you're essentially skipping past the create holding rule.
 The only exception is the transfer of all holdings, which includes the foundation lvl 0 holding.

Jon was faster than me, but he essentially wrote what I was going to say, so I'll just add my support to him.

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

My take on it, is that there indeed are three levels there:

Level 2

Level 1

 and Level 0

But unlike Jon, I dont think its a problem that the recipient can "skip" the create holding rule. Think on how impossible it will become to transfer a holding, if the recipient has to create a lvl 0 himself, first.

If someone takes over a whole chain of guilds, fx through inheritance, or even have to try and create a lvl 0 holding i Ariya, where it is notoriously difficult to establish a presence.

So, I think the best solution could be that the Level 0 holding can be left to the giving party OR given up as part of the deal, AS AGREED BY THE PARTIES IN QUESTION.

For sure, in some cases the receiver is NOT going to accept that the giver remains as a lvl 0 holding, while in others, it will mean you can still trace fx a ley line through or grant influence support on certain common goals.

[X-DM Jon]

My take on it, is that there indeed are three levels there:

Level 2

Level 1

 and Level 0

But unlike Jon, I dont think its a problem that the recipient can "skip" the create holding rule. Think on how impossible it will become to transfer a holding, if the recipient has to create a lvl 0 himself, first.

If someone takes over a whole chain of guilds, fx through inheritance, or even have to try and create a lvl 0 holding i Ariya, where it is notoriously difficult to establish a presence.

So, I think the best solution could be that the Level 0 holding can be left to the giving party OR given up as part of the deal, AS AGREED BY THE PARTIES IN QUESTION.

For sure, in some cases the receiver is NOT going to accept that the giver remains as a lvl 0 holding, while in others, it will mean you can still trace fx a ley line through or grant influence support on certain common goals.

 It's not supposed to be easy or common to transfer holdings. And if you were to receive a holding as your inheritance, you would usually receive the entire holding.

 And besides, IF you allow transfer of holdings without the receiving party having a lvl 0 holding present, ruleswise you're stating that there is an inherent lvl 0 holding in any transfer - so why can't a regent transfer an endless amount of lvl 0 holdings to whoever he chooses? Bjørn has ruled against this for good reason.

 No, ruleswise it must be necessary to either receive the entire holding or create a level 0 holding of your own and receive only some of the holding.

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

I do not consider a level 0 holding to be particularly important.  The Regent Guide, basically calls them "a minor investment and little real control".  Ultimately, I think it should be a matter of diplomacy, and in some cases, RPing as well.

Take the TrB --> WO law transfer in Caercas.

While the Law holding is transferring, is it reasonable to assume that Tristan has lost ALL influence within province?  Probably not.   It is more plausible, that he could probably still exercise his influence within the province, perhaps not as directly as before, but essentially, he can be assumed to have contacts within the province which provide him some benefit.  This essentially IS a level 0 holding.

[X-ETN/Maire Cwyllmie (Libor)]

No, ruleswise it must be necessary to either receive the entire holding or create a level 0 holding of your own and receive only some of the holding.

Yes. I agree with this. Lets call it "Law of conservation of holdings"

[DM B]

But unlike Jon, I dont think its a problem that the recipient can "skip" the create holding rule. Think on how impossible it will become to transfer a holding, if the recipient has to create a lvl 0 himself, first.

Not part of the original question. Not an issue here.

[DM B]

Situation:

Regent A has a holding (2) in province X.

- he transfers 1 lvl to regent B --> he now has a holding (1) in province X.

or

- he transfers 2 lvls to regent B --> he now has a holding (0) or no holding at all in province X.

Which is better? Should regent A retain some level of influence in a province even if he transfers his entire holding (i.e. he's left with a lvl 0 holding). We did that in RoE I, but not in RoE II. What do you think is more appropriate?

If you transfer a lvl 0 holding, you will NOT get to keep a lvl 0 holding; we're talking lvl 1+ holdings here...

[X-DM Jon]

A level 0 holding is the lowest level of holding. You choose whether you transfer it or not.

 And I don't think it should be possible to skip the creation of the level 0 holding. Not by transfer, not by anything.
 You could possibly state that any level of holding contains a "free" L 0 holding, that would allow transfer to another party without a holding presence.

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

Situation:

Regent A has a holding (2) in province X.

- he transfers 1 lvl to regent B --> he now has a holding (1) in province X.

or

- he transfers 2 lvls to regent B --> he now has a holding (0) or no holding at all in province X.

Which is better? Should regent A retain some level of influence in a province even if he transfers his entire holding (i.e. he's left with a lvl 0 holding). We did that in RoE I, but not in RoE II. What do you think is more appropriate?

If you transfer a lvl 0 holding, you will NOT get to keep a lvl 0 holding; we're talking lvl 1+ holdings here...

B.

In my opinion, it isn't possible to transfer an 'entire' holding away -- some residual influence remains for a time, and this is simulated by a Holding (0).

If someone want to get rid of it, force them to Contest the holding, or use some other domain action to be rid of it.

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

Situation:

Regent A has a holding (2) in province X.

- he transfers 1 lvl to regent B --> he now has a holding (1) in province X.

or

- he transfers 2 lvls to regent B --> he now has a holding (0) or no holding at all in province X.

Which is better? Should regent A retain some level of influence in a province even if he transfers his entire holding (i.e. he's left with a lvl 0 holding). We did that in RoE I, but not in RoE II. What do you think is more appropriate?

If you transfer a lvl 0 holding, you will NOT get to keep a lvl 0 holding; we're talking lvl 1+ holdings here...

B.

In my opinion, it isn't possible to transfer an 'entire' holding away -- some residual influence remains for a time, and this is simulated by a Holding (0).

If someone want to get rid of it, force them to Contest the holding, or use some other domain action to be rid of it.

That doesn't make sense though. If your last vestige of control can be eliminated with Contest, then surely the lvl 0 owner can relinquish any leftover control voluntarily, if that is the desired result by both parties in the negotiation.

SO, I'm on A, but also B with free choice of keeping lvl 0 or relinquishing it, all depending on the deal.

[X-Points East]

OoC:

Two Suggestions:

(1)

Transferring a full holding (1+) to an other regent leaves the transferring regent with an holding (0).  However, the transferring regent may employ Disband Holding (as a free action), with respect to such an holding (0), as a part of the investiture ceremony.

(2)

Transferring a full holding (1+) to an other regent leaves the transferring regent with an holding (0); but the ceremony of recognition implies a Disband Holding action (as a free action), with respect to such an holding (0).  However, the transferring regent may retain this holding (0), by employing a court action toward that end.  The said court action, which applies to a single holding (0), has no cost and is automatically successful.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

I'd prefer:

If regent A is transferring a holding to regent B

1.  If regent B has no holding at all, then the transfer costs 1 GB more to reflect additional preliminaries (basically the cost to create a L0 province, but automatically successful)

2. If regent A retains the L0 holding unless they spend an extra GB to lose it - basically some people just don't let go old loyalties.  Obviously regent A would charge regent B to "take those eternally loyal with him" if so regent B wanted them to go.

So you can transfer a level or so without any issues, but to start from scratch / totally dispose of your holdings costs more.  An alternative is that just 'dumping' the L0 'rump' holding risks reduces your domains morale if nothing is paid - such faithful old retainers left penniless/at the mercy of the new lords. 

I'd also suggest that transfers are probably fairly likely to create a great captain event if not handled well...  the seller had better make sure that the diplomacy is successful!