Transfer of holdings

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

And please include an entry for how to do it for investing a new court mage :-)

[X-Points East]

OoC:

Edit:  See Reply #58 (Re: Transfer of holdings), below.

[X-Points East]

I'm changing the way several investiture ceremonies work; that will take care of this:

The DDC for the recognition ceremony, for example, will be set to 5 + province level + recipient's new holding level (for holdings). +5 DDC if you have no holding of the same type in the province.

That brings it in line with the DDC calculation used for Rule actions (quire neat). It will make the trading of multiple holding levels in high-level provinces much more costly, without inventing a completely new balancing mechanism.

Hmm, can't decide if I want to increase the DDC by another +5 for the rare occurrence of uncontrolled provinces/holdings.

Btw: The investiture spell will no longer be required for investiture. Rather, it will make investitures more likely to succeed. But I expect that priests would usually be present anyway (as a Free or Court action?) for cultural reasons...Haelynic priests for lands and such, Sarimite priests for guilds or trade, perhaps even one of Ruornil if godly sorcerers are involved.

Edit.

Spell no longer NEEDED, but gives a bonus.

So what are you investing?

OoC:

Might a DAC bonus of +2 from an Investiture spell seem preferable to an higher DAC bonus, such as +5?  (Presumably, the DAC bonus from an Investiture spell would apply to every check in all of the ceremonies covered by the spell, no?)

Hypothetical Situation:

*  Province (7).
*  Guild Levels:  Regent A controls guild (5); Regent B controls guild (1); one guild level is vacant.
*  Were Regent A to attempt to Rule Holding, from guild (5) to guild (6), the DDC would be 23 (assuming DDC formula of 10 + province level + new holding level).
*  Were Regent A to attempt to increase his guild (5) to guild (6) via Recognition, receiving the guild (1) of Regent B, the DDC would be 18 (assuming DDC formula of 5 + province level + recipient's new holding level).

Might a DAC bonus of +5 (for example) from an Investiture spell seem too high, in the light of that hypothetical situation?

Here is an additional issue:

Province 7; regent A has a holding 5, regent B has a holding 1. Regent B transfers his holding to regent A. Regent A now has a holding 6.

As you can see, 5+1 is 6 in this case, even though it certainly involves a LOT less effort than for A to rule from 5 to 6...

[X-Tuornen/LF (Geir)]

I would expect we want to keep it so that the norm is to have both prior holdings, influence and a ceremony (spell) ?

It should be possible to manage without one of these factors, which makes for fun and opens up for creativity. But to do that should be costly. Say, if you have all the holdings, and you spend a good amount of influence, you may get ok odds even without a ceremony (spell).

to be short, divine and clergy approval should be very important. I say at least +5, maybe +10 even.

But, the formula should be adjusted so that one must go to great lengths to manage without all three factors. Divine(spell), influence and presence(prior holdings). Game balance plainly put.

[DM B]

The bonus from the investiture spell must be significant enough that it is attractive to have it cast; not for small transfers, but for all larger transfers + transfers of provinces.

DDCs must be adjusted to accommodate that, but NOT so much as to make every transfer either very expensive or near impossible without the spell.

Anyone?

[X-Points East]

The bonus from the investiture spell must be significant enough that it is attractive to have it cast; not for small transfers, but for all larger transfers + transfers of provinces.

DDCs must be adjusted to accommodate that, but NOT so much as to make every transfer either very expensive or near impossible without the spell.

Anyone?

OoC:

Assuming no location, prosperity, or stability modifiers . . . and assuming no action description or adventure modifiers . . .

I.

. . . what is the maximum province transfer that you think ought to be possible via Taking 10, with and without an Investiture spell?

For example, taking "5 + (Province Level x 2)" as an hypothetical DDC for province transfers, one could Take 10 on Recognition ceremonies involving provinces (2) without a spell bonus; provinces (3) with a +2 DAC spell bonus; provinces (5) with a +5 DAC spell bonus; and provinces (7) with a +10 DAC spell bonus.

For an other example, taking "10 + Province Level" as an hypothetical DDC for province transfers, one could Take 10 on Recognition ceremonies involving provinces (0) without a spell bonus; provinces (2) with a +2 DAC spell bonus; provinces (5) with a +5 DAC spell bonus; and provinces (10) with a +10 DAC spell bonus.

II.

. . . what is the maximum holding upgrade transfer that you think ought to be possible via Taking 10, with and without an Investiture spell?

For example, taking "5 + Province Level + New Holding Level" as an hypothetical DDC for holding upgrade transfers, one could Take 10 on Recognition ceremonies involving 5 combined province/holding levels without a spell bonus; 7 such levels with a +2 DAC spell bonus; 10 such levels with a +5 DAC spell bonus; and 15 such levels with a +10 DAC spell bonus.

III.

. . . what is the maximum new holding transfer that you think ought to be possible via Taking 10, with and without an Investiture spell?

For example, taking "10 + Province Level + New Holding Level" as an hypothetical DDC for new holding transfers, one could Take 10 on Recognition ceremonies involving 0 combined province/holding levels without a spell bonus; 2 such levels with a +2 DAC spell bonus; 5 such levels with a +5 DAC spell bonus; and 10 such levels with a +10 DAC spell bonus.

[X-EOM/SS (Tristan)]

I'm gonna throw out an idea for the Investiture spell.

I haven't really thought it through yet as I am work and not in a position to run the potential numbers down, but...

Have it cap the DDC of transferring holdings.

[X-MOC/Leman States (Even)]

I.

. . . what is the maximum province transfer that you think ought to be possible via Taking 10, with and without an Investiture spell?

For example, taking "5 + (Province Level x 2)" as an hypothetical DDC for province transfers, one could Take 10 on Recognition ceremonies involving provinces (2) without a spell bonus; provinces (3) with a +2 DAC spell bonus; provinces (5) with a +5 DAC spell bonus; and provinces (7) with a +10 DAC spell bonus.

For an other example, taking "10 + Province Level" as an hypothetical DDC for province transfers, one could Take 10 on Recognition ceremonies involving provinces (0) without a spell bonus; provinces (2) with a +2 DAC spell bonus; provinces (5) with a +5 DAC spell bonus; and provinces (10) with a +10 DAC spell bonus.

II.

. . . what is the maximum holding upgrade transfer that you think ought to be possible via Taking 10, with and without an Investiture spell?

For example, taking "5 + Province Level + New Holding Level" as an hypothetical DDC for holding upgrade transfers, one could Take 10 on Recognition ceremonies involving 5 combined province/holding levels without a spell bonus; 7 such levels with a +2 DAC spell bonus; 10 such levels with a +5 DAC spell bonus; and 15 such levels with a +10 DAC spell bonus.

Some samples difficulty ratings:

Transfer Minor Province - Lvl 2 = DDC 9
Transfer Moderate Province - Lvl 4 = DDC 13
Transfer Great Province - Lvl 6 = DDC 17

Transfer Minor Holding - Lvl 1 in Lvl 3 Province OR Lvl 2 in Lvl 2 Province = DDC 9
Transfer Moderate Holding - Lvl 3 in Lvl 5 Province OR Lvl 4 in Lvl 4 Province = DDC 13
Transfer Great Holding - Lvl 5 in Lvl 7 Prov OR Lvl 6 in Lvl 6 Province = DDC 17

Transfer 4 No Minor Holdings = DDC 13 (4 No separate checks)
Transfer 4 No Moderate Holdings = DDC 17  (4 No separate checks)

Some sample DACs based on 'take 10':

No modifier = 10
Stable, prosperous realm = 14 (Assumes total applicable Prosp, Stab & Court modifier of +4)
Investiture spell only = 15 (Assumes spell bonus of +5)
Stable realm AND investiture spell = 19 (Both of the above)

I guess it depends a bit on the flavour and difficulty one wants, but I don't it is unreasonable to be able to undertake the DDC 17 actions by 'take 10' of one has a happy realm and the support of an investiture spell.

One factor I'm not convinced about is the proposed +5 for uncontrolled provinces and holdings. What is the rationale for these being more likely to require the presence of a cleric?

[X-MOC/Leman States (Even)]

The bonus from the investiture spell must be significant enough that it is attractive to have it cast; not for small transfers, but for all larger transfers + transfers of provinces.

DDCs must be adjusted to accommodate that, but NOT so much as to make every transfer either very expensive or near impossible without the spell.

Anyone?

I think another factor is to what extent one want to decouple the temples from the politics of the landed regents. If temples are no longer required, they could be in danger of becoming similar to guilds except one pays for blessings rather than information.

Based only on the effort involved in the preparing spell (one regent action, 1 GB and 1 RP), the bonus should at least be +4, otherwise one can get just as big a bonus without it. With that as a baseline one can increase it as much as one think the landed regents should be 'dependent' on the temples to easily undertake investiture ceremonies.

[X-Points East]

Transfer 4 No Minor Holdings = DDC 13 (4 No separate checks)
Transfer 4 No Moderate Holdings = DDC 17  (4 No separate checks)

OoC:

According to the Regent Guide version of Recognition, multiple checks do not seem to raise the DDC in realm action fashion . . . although there is a location modifier.

[X-Points East]

I think another factor is to what extent one want to decouple the temples from the politics of the landed regents. If temples are no longer required, they could be in danger of becoming similar to guilds except one pays for blessings rather than information.

Based only on the effort involved in the preparing spell (one regent action, 1 GB and 1 RP), the bonus should at least be +4, otherwise one can get just as big a bonus without it. With that as a baseline one can increase it as much as one think the landed regents should be 'dependent' on the temples to easily undertake investiture ceremonies.

OoC:

Somewhat relatedly:

In practice, are temple domains going to be concerned (or as concerned) with ceremonies involving only guild, trade, and/or source holdings?  Hypothetically, should they be?

Perhaps granting a DAC bonus to ceremonies involving only guild, trade, and/or source holdings (not to stack with the DAC bonus from the Investiture spell) would address this?

[X-MOC/Leman States (Even)]

According to the Regent Guide version of Recognition, multiple checks do not seem to raise the DDC in realm action fashion . . . although there is a location modifier.

If we're trying to align the difficulty with the Rule Holding action, increasing DDC akin to realm actions would make sense.

[X-Points East]

The bonus from the investiture spell must be significant enough that it is attractive to have it cast; not for small transfers, but for all larger transfers + transfers of provinces.

OoC:

If you want to make the Investiture spell relatively common for Recognition of low level provinces, then 10 + Province Level (from one of Even's posts in this topic) might be preferable to 5 + (Province Level x 2), no?  Recognition of provinces (6+) would be easier with the former formula; but perhaps that would be acceptable, as the DDCs would be over 15?

The DDC for the recognition ceremony, for example, will be set to 5 + province level + recipient's new holding level (for holdings). +5 DDC if you have no holding of the same type in the province.

OoC:

The above (quoted) rules would make the DDC of upgrading to an holding (6) in a province (6), via Recognition, equal to the DDC of acquiring a new holding (1) in a province (6), via Recognition.

Suggestion:  +2 DDC, when the holding recipient has no same holding presence in the province.  This would make the DDC of upgrading to an holding (3) in a province (6), via Recognition, equal to the DDC of acquiring a new holding (1) in a province (6), via Recognition.

[X-Points East]

OoC:

DDC Suggestions for Various Ceremonies:

* * * * *	* * * * *
Ceremony	DDC
* * * * *	* * * * *
Coronation (Province)	7 + Province Level
Coronation (Holding)	2 + Province Level + Holding Level
* * * * *	* * * * *
Designation (Province)	10 + Province Level
Designation (Holding)	5 + Province Level + Holding Level
* * * * *	* * * * *
Recognition (Province/Transfer)	10 + Province Level
Recognition (Holding Upgrade/Transfer)	5 + Province Level + New Holding Level
Recognition (New Holding/Transfer)	7 + Province Level + New Holding Level
* * * * *	* * * * *
Divestiture (Province/Target Regent Present)	10 + Province Level
Divestiture (Holding/Target Regent Present)	5 + Province Level + Holding Level
* * * * *	* * * * *
Divestiture (Province/Target Regent Absent)	15 + Province Level
Divestiture (Holding/Target Regent Absent)	10 + Province Level + Holding Level
* * * * *	* * * * *

Suggested DAC Bonus from Investiture Spell:  +5.

Suggested DAC Bonus for Ceremonies Involving Only Guild, Trade, and/or Source Holdings (Not to Stack with DAC Bonus from Investiture Spell):  +5.

[DM B]

I've finalized Chapter 3 with the updated ceremony rules (including a rather hand table which summarizes everything). I just need to mull a bit over how difficult I want to make things. Can't make it too easy or it would be impossible to use Take 10 (and investiture already cost a bunch of RP). But I don't want it to be so easy as to be pointless - there has to be SOME chance of failure when transferring major province and holdings...