Demagogue Spell

[X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)]

I have a few comments on the Demagogue spell and I would like to discuss them, so here goes.

The spell in question:

Demagogue
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Caster level: Arcane 3
Regency: 3 RP/province
Casting Time: One free action (1 day)
Range: Long
Area: 1 province +1 province/2 caster levels after 5th
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Description: The wizard can change the loyalty of the people inhabiting a province drastically. He can either make the province ruled loved or hated, changing the prosperity of the area equivalently.
Spell Effect: All provinces affected have a +2 bonus or –2 penalty that turn. The caster may choose to have different effects in different provinces.

The duration needs to be changed to 1 Turn instead of Instant - Bjørn, Jon, and I agreed on this. It's a little misleading to call it instant - as that implies that the magic is only active for a very short time, then things run their natural course. THat led me to believe that Prosperity increase was as permanent as damage or healing - until the new damage is dealt or you are healed, the effect remains. Essentially, the equivalent of Agitating succesfully twice in each affected province... somewhat overpower on second thought, but hey, I was feeling optimistic.

Anyway, the spell now only last for the turn in which it is cast and I think this makes it a little too weak compared to other spells with the same effect and/or level. I'm comparing it to Bless the Holy Land:

Bless the Holy Land
Transmutation
Level: Divine 1
Components: 1 GB/target province
Regency: 1 RP/target province + special
Casting Time: One free action (1 day)
Area: 1 province + 1 province/2 caster levels beyond minimum requirement
Range: Long
Duration: 1 domain turn
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Description: The spell is usually cast by the principal temple in each province, and most relatively civilized provinces tend to benefit from it on a regular basis. It represents the clergy performing a wide variety of ceremonies and blessings throughout the province. The populace feels invigorated and happy, making the province more productive.
Spell Effect: Target province gets a +1 morale bonus to province level (except for the purpose of collecting regency) and a +1 prosperity modifier. Bless the Holy Land counters Blight the Accursed Land.
The caster must pay an additional number of RPs per province equal to the difference in target province level and his holding level. Example: Casting Bless the Holy Land in a province (6), where the caster has a temple (4), costs an additional 6-4 = 2 RPs

Effect-wise these spells are pretty much equal. Getting +2 Prosperity is pretty much the same as getting +1 prosperity and +1 province level. No biggie. The reason the Arcane spell must be higher level to give the equavalent benifit is that Blessing/Boosting provinces is a Cleric specialty - of course it should be easier for them.

However, given that the Demagogue spell is 2 levels higher, I think it ends up being a little weak... especially compared to other 3rd level arcane spells like: SUmmon Army III, Winter's Long Fingers, Mass Destruction, and Hidden Army. It's easiest to compare it to Winter's Long Fingers - the spells are similar in effect.

Winter's Long Fingers give the -2 Prosperity of Demagogue as well as some other effects (-25% income, penalty for army movement and foraging). It also has a massive duration of 1 year. Comparing Demagogue with that one and Bless the Holy Land, it seems a little on the weak side.

I suggest adding a duration slightly longer to Demagogue, perhaps 1 Domain Turn / 3 caster levels. That would make it last 2 Turns for a 6th level Wizard or Sorcerer, 3 Turns for for a level 9 and so on. Probably a maximum duration of 1 year. Does this sound reasonable?

I should also note that there is a bit of self interest in this. My character has learnt this spell - I mistook the duration, but do not feel especially nerfed... it's a useful spell. I still think it's a little lacking compared to other spells of the same level and effect.

[DM B]

Its underpowered with 1 turn duration compared to similar spells; and quite overpowered with the Instant duration.

I'll try to find something in between.

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

Then again, spells which give domain level bonuses are often a bit less powerful than more focused spells. 

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

I think for Demagogue it might want to reduce its bonus +1/-1 and have it be a duration spell.

Alternatively, increase its material costs (3 GB) and a RP cost scheme similar to bless the holy land, leave its bonuses to +2/-2 and have it be a duration spell (1 Turn +1 turn per three levels after 5th level)

[X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)]

Completely agree Bjørn - instant too powerful, current somewhat weak and expensive.

Alan - I actually tend to think of domain level spells as the most powerful... which is why I tried to compare it to Winter's Long Fingers - the only equivalent spell of the same level.

Keep in mind that the casting cost is already 3 GB. Amping it up to 3 addiotional GB will make it too expensive IMO. As Mages tend to have more exclusive control of sources than most (in our P&H), it is currently more expensive in RP than Bless the Holy Land.

I think a duration like the once you suggest could be added to the current version without making it too powerful. I think the duration should be a minimum of 2 Domain Turns and a maximum of 4 - a whole year is a lot. That way a very high level cast can gain a very big benifit, while a lower level still has some use for it... and it doesn't make Bless the Holy Land obsolete in any way. Perhaps a duration of 2 Turns + 1/4 levels above minimum, to a maximum of 4 Turns, would work?

[DM B]

The original intent of the spell was to make it similar to a Successful Agitate action; so that is probably why it is listed still with the Instant duration. It was later tweaked, but not properly edited...

[X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)]

How about this then: Make it instant and and reduce the effect to +/- 1 Prosperity. The spell costs 3 GB to prepare and 3 RP pr province to cast, not necessarily cheaper than the equivalent Agitate actions. The main advantage of the spell will then be that it's success is relatively secure and at the higher levels becomes cheaper than the actual agitate actions. Making the RP cost higher or making it scale could serve to moderate the spell a bit...

This is a suggestion for a revised version:

Demagogue
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Caster level: Arcane 3
Components: 1 GB of magical materials.
Regency: 1 RP pr. Level of each affected province
Casting Time: One free action (1 day)
Range: Long
Area: 2 provinces +1 province/5 caster levels after 5th
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Description: The wizard can change the loyalty of the people inhabiting a province drastically. He can either make the province ruled loved or hated, changing the prosperity of the area equivalently.
Spell Effect: All provinces affected have a +1 bonus or –1 penalty as if the caster had succesfully agitated in the provinces. The caster may choose to have different effects in different provinces.

Analysis:
The spell cost 3 GB to prepare and a variable number of regency points to cast. Given the relatively high province levels of RoE, this can get very expensive. The major advantage of the spell is that success is almost guaranteed (at low caster levels) and that it saves actions (higher caster levels).

At 5th level: Affects two provinces. Agitating in two level 5 provinces for 4 GB and 10 RP is not extremely cheap, but it is effective. Additionally, it cost me 1 action to prepare and a free action cast this spell - in contrast to two agitate actions at the cost of 2 GB.

At 10th level: Affects three provinces. Now the spell is more cost effective with regard to gold - it costs 4 GB and 15 RP to cast on 3 level 5 provinces, compated to 3 GB for 3 agitate actions. Very effective.

At 15th level and up: Becomes increasingly cost effective, but we are in epic levels now, so it makes sense. At this level you have access to the Chains of Loyalty spell, so prosperity is not an issue.

In practice, it is slightly cheaper than the actual agitate action, since you will often be spending influence until you have at least a 10+ DDC. Costing you a lot of influence (likely RP). The spell forces you to use a little extra gold though.

This changes the spell purpose from what it is now. Right now it's sort of a temporary fix or boost. This makes it a viable alternative to agitate actions... which moves it closer to it's original intent I think.

Views?

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

For something which is automatically successful, it should IMO, have a higher GB cost.  1 GB per province for instance.

[X-DM Jon]

You're basically suggesting that the wizard gain a priestly power. The power to affect people permanently.

 The ability to affect the world on a deeper spiritual level isn't exactly the standard manner in which magic effects work.

 Magic is rather a superficial, immediate force, creating something instantaneously, dragging something to you with great force, changing people's minds instantly, altering size in a blink of an eye, conjuring forth just about anything in the blink of an eye.

 That's why the current demagogue spell is the perfect example of wizardly magic. It garners more impressive effects, but for a limited time, since it doesn't change people, it boosts them artificially. Making them think things are well and good. It's basically a charm person spell on a global level.

 Take away the magic and people loose that spark.

 Maybe change the cost and level of the spell, but do not make it into a bless spell for wizards.

[X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)]

Uh... Priests can't increase prosperity instantly either the only spell that truly does is permanently is Chains of Loyalty - 8th level spell for clerics and wizards, that one is +4 though.
Also, increasing prosperity is not necessarily affecting them on a deeper spiritual level... it's just about making them content, imo. Both clerics and sorcerers have agitate as a bonus action - they do it in different ways, but achieve the same effect.
It's not bless for wizards - keep in mind that bless also increases province level. If demagogue was a cleric spell, it should be 1st or 2nd level - giving +2 prosperity is roughly the equivalent of giving +1 prosperity and +1 province level... slight weaker, but close.

Alan keep in mind that it's a 3rd level spell, it's supposed to have a fairly powerful effect. It's already more expensive than the equivalent agitate actions.

Anyway, the version I posted above was a suggestion. It needs something to make it on par with the other spells. A duration of about... 3 turns would make sense imo, perhaps a cost to maintain it - similar to the way Protection from Realm Magic is handled.

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

Alan keep in mind that it's a 3rd level spell, it's supposed to have a fairly powerful effect. It's already more expensive than the equivalent agitate actions.

I am looking at the spells around it, and noting that there is a thematic element to RoE to remember:

"It is easier to destroy than build."

Notice that all the spells which help a realm are relatively more expensive then the spells which casue harm.

Additionally, when I look at a spell like Celestial Boon, whose costs is very high, and when I look at Bless the Sacred Lands whose cost is high for what it does.  Demagogue simply doesn't fit in terms of its scale or its costs.

Additionally, a realm spell shouldn't allow you to do a realm action for cheaper than if you had to do it normally, particularly if it has no chance to fail (compared to normal agitate).

[DM B]

Bear in mind that Demagogue only affects prosperity NOT province level; so there is a HUGE difference between it and Bless Land/Celestial Boon. The extra cost per province there is based more or less on the fact that it increases province level.

[X-DM Jon]

It's a moot point, everything that is done this turn, goes into effect in the next P&H.

 You can't make the clear-cut divide between spell power and level, or compare one spell of one level with another. Bless land is without a doubt the primary spell of any priesthood and is as such the real reason why the people keep coming to the temples. If wizards had something that could compete equally with that, they would easily end up as something like mortal sorcerer-gods. With temples devoted to them, instead of the divine powers.
 That is an important reason why wizardly magic don't compete on equal footing with divine magic - just as divine magic can't do much of anything on the "destroy several units in one massive flash" front. It's not about levelling them out. It's about the differences.


 Now demagogue works to raise prosperity higher than bless and is also able to lower prosperity interchangably, but it has no staying power since it disappears once the magic stops working. This is much more of an advantage than you'd think, because it means that once you stop re-casting the spell - the effect disappears. You can threaten rulers that you'll throw provinces into sudden chaos unless they pay you - and you can bargain with rulers in dire need of prosperity assistance, because your demagogue will tip the scales of any other action performed in that province.
 Well-placed it can buy time, it can tear a realm apart and all for a rather low price alltogether. And since it is the only spell in the entire game that can do this - I think it's easily on par with other spells of it's level.


 Bless influences people permanently. That's what I'm talking about with the "deeper spiritual level", making people content is on the spiritual, emotional or whatever level you prefer to call it. It comes as a direct consequence of the boon the gods have granted the land - like the rise of energy in spring.

 Demagogue is not about making people content, it is about making them think they're content. But once the magic stops working, there is no discernible effect left. The crops haven't grown tenfold, the animals haven't given birth to several offspring, the rain hasn't fallen lightly and the sun hasn't shone any differently - like it does when a divine power interferes. Magic works like a drug, once it's gone you find that you've forgotten to do the laundry.


 As for comparing it to the agitate action; Check the modifiers for agitating a rotten prosperity province and consider that the average realm wizard will be able to affect two provinces at once.
The agitator will have to spend considerable amount of resources to get an effect - and may even fail, the wizard just has to keep an eye out for protective magic.

 I say the spell is fine as it is.

[DM B]

Jon: Bless Land don't give a permanent bonus anymore; its temporary. The reason was that it broke the prosperity system; everything that was blessed eventually wound up with his prosperity, completely negating the need for agitate.

[X-DM Jon]

Odd, I remember spending an incessant amount of time and resources getting Dieman prosperity up to manageable levels in RoE I.
 Bless land helped plug the hole, but I still had to do agitate, adventure and grant money to keep the nation from descending into troubled times - because bless could only affect a limited number of provinces. And Diemed wasn't even under attack.

 I question the logic that it broke the prosperity system back then. For a number of reasons; one being random events causing prosperity to plummet, another being war and the fact that high prosperity was always next to impossible to reach and never for more than a turn because it dropped back down quickly. Rather it would seem that you believe prosperity should be harder to come by, agitate become much more used and make wizards as useful for controlling a realm's prosperity, as priests.

 If that is the case then I agree with Alexander, demagogue is underpowered compared to bless land. But then I don't believe that arcane magic is supposed to do the same things as divine - and vice versa.