Realm spell update

[DM B]

A slightly related question, will Battle Magic make a return as the long lost 0-level spells? There has been much talk (ok, some at least) of that over the last... 9 years? I never liked the original system in BR, but the vague bonus granted by spellcasters now is not ideal either.

Time permitting it will; battle spells are short-duration, limited target (read a few rounds and one unit) versions of other realm magic. Their big advantage is a casting time of 1 battle round.

[X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)]

Could you look over the Gold Rush spell (Arcane 5th)? Just to confirm if it works like written or if it's different.

[DM B]

Revision of spells starts Mondag 16th March - when I'm back from boozing.

[X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)]

The Gold Rush spell. I think it needs some kind of nerf, though I'm not sure what. The effect of it, if cast on a large province, is insane. It is expensive though (5 GB to prepare, 4 GB to cast, 8 RP/province).

Suggestions:
Make the casting cost scale with the size of the affected provinces.
Reduce duration and area affected.
Put a ceiling on the gold gain - ie. you can only generate level/2 gold in each province each turn.
Remove or drastically reduce the province growth modifier.


Gold Rush
Conjuration (Creation)
Caster level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: 4 GB
Regency: 8 RP/province
Casting Time: One free action (1 day)
Range: Long
Targets: 1 province + 1 province/3 caster levels after 5th
Duration: 1 turn/3 caster levels (1 month/caster level)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Description: There are sudden finds of precious metals and other valuables in the province. Fortunes are made quickly and people flock to the site to take part in the dream of untold riches.
Spell Effect: The affected provinces receive a +50% income bonus and a +5 province growth bonus.

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

I would add the accompanying danger of adversely affecting the economy in general. When Cortez and Co struck gold in the Americas, european economy received an initial boost, only to be accompanied by massive price increases as the market adapted to an increased supply of gold.

Not sure how this could be done in the game without a lot of bookkeeping, but a solution could be for repeated casting to have this undesired effect. Maybe a small note in the P&H, keeping count of the number of gold rushes cast.. Not that the game should keep careful track of inflation, but, consider the possibility that EVERYONE's gold reserves suddenly become slightly less worth..

In fact, this might be an effective way to keep the spell in line... You hear that a gold rush happened in this or that province and as a result of market adapting your own treasury is suddenly 2-3% smaller as losses are spread out throughout Anuire...

Thus the spell retains its potency and brings instant wealth but political repercussions could be severe since you can't hide a gold rush 

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

Or... as it has been pointed out to me that this might be difficult to implement mechanics wise... it could simply deduce 1 (or more) from the variable income of several or all realms.

That way the caster gets to piss everyone off

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

Ok, so the "broken" scenario is if this is cast on something like Ilien, yes?

Cost 9 GB and 8 regency (or 4,5 GB if 2 provinces or 3 GB if 3 provinces)

1. Does it boosts province income by 50%?

OR

2. Does it boost the income of all holdings in that province by 50%?

[DM B]

Ok, so the "broken" scenario is if this is cast on something like Ilien, yes?

Cost 9 GB and 8 regency (or 4,5 GB if 2 provinces or 3 GB if 3 provinces)

1. Does it boosts province income by 50%?

OR

2. Does it boost the income of all holdings in that province by 50%?

Province income.

[X-LPA/Gaerred Khaiarén (Gray)]

Which I think means that only law holders benefit from that spells?

[X-MOC/Leman States (Even)]

Which I think means that only law holders benefit from that spells?

No, it means that nobody benefits. Law does not claim from province income any more, and the province ruler does not get it either. Which is why I think Bjørn might be wrong on this one. Alternatively it is meant as a spell to benefit the populace in general. 
Ignore the careless man's comment.

[X-LPA/Gaerred Khaiarén (Gray)]

Take a look at the P&H formulas, I think you still get income from province, Even. If you are not suppose to, then a lot of law holders are going to be very unhappy.

[X-LPA/Gaerred Khaiarén (Gray)]

Actually, after doing a little testing, I think it may be better if Gold Rush simply do one of the following:

1. Double Province Level (as a temporary modifier)
Most powerful, easy to account for.  I would not allow it to stack with anything though.

2. Add a +5 circumstance bonus to Province level (temporarily)
Still powerful, but not uber powerful.  Doesn't require a ton of work for the DMs to accomplish.  I think allowing this to stack wouldn't be a big deal.

3.  The spell is simulated by setting province prosperity to Triving - Utopian (make it random) for a set period of time.

[X-MOC/Leman States (Even)]

Take a look at the P&H formulas, I think you still get income from province, Even. If you are not suppose to, then a lot of law holders are going to be very unhappy.

You're quite right. In my mind I had it that Law holders claimed from the province, but when I increased the province income in the excel cell, there was no increase in Law income. Silly me, as the Law income is not tied to the income on the province cell, but rather makes to separate, if compatible, calculations.

[X-MOC/Leman States (Even)]

Actually, after doing a little testing, I think it may be better if Gold Rush simply do one of the following:

1. Double Province Level (as a temporary modifier)
Most powerful, easy to account for.  I would not allow it to stack with anything though.

2. Add a +5 circumstance bonus to Province level (temporarily)
Still powerful, but not uber powerful.  Doesn't require a ton of work for the DMs to accomplish.  I think allowing this to stack wouldn't be a big deal.

Option 1 is quite a lot less useful in low-level provinces, but that might be a good or bad thing. I think option 2 is less unbalancing, as it does not go overboard in high-level provinces, but is still useful in remote regions as well. The main problem as it is would be that the effect would benefit all holding owners, not just Law holdings claiming from province income, which is counter to Bjørn's statement above. Personally I don't think it is reasonable to think that the merchants, priests and everybody else in the province would benefit from a goldrush. More tithes to the church coffers, great influx of people for the guilder to charge extortionate rents from.

As you say, the easiest to implement in the P&H as well, and makes it easy to compare against other boosting spells, is to use the current implementation of increasing the province level.

3.  The spell is simulated by setting province prosperity to Triving - Utopian (make it random) for a set period of time.

This has the problem of giving a massive bonus on actions as well, which might no really be the intended result.

For province growth I think it could be interesting to change this to equal the province income, rather than some set number. This would enable high prosperity, low tax provinces to grow quicker. And it gives a neat way of incorporating the benefit from bless, goldrush etc as a bonus in province level increases the province income significantly.

[X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)]

Oh boy, I misread this spell completely. Given that it only affect province income, it's actually not overpowered IMO. Still useful though.

Some calculations:
Cast at the minmum level (9th) it affects two provinces for 3 turns. Casting it on a level 6 and 5 province, with Heavy taxation and full Law collection, will have the following effect:
Income (level 5): 5*5/5(base income) *0.5(multiplier) *0.4(law collection) = 1.0 GB
Income (level 6): 5*5/5(base income) *0.5(multiplier) *0.4(law collection) = 1.4 GB
Over three turns, that adds up to 7.2 GB (some rounding error here)

The spell costs 5 GB to prepare and 4 GB to cast, meaning it looses 1.8 GB, but it also costs 16 RP to cast, which is not covered.

However, it also adds 5*2*3 = 30 GB in province growth, which is a hefty bonus.

If we boost the casting level to 11, affecting 3 provinces (adding in a level 4 province) for 3 turns, the following happens:
Income (level 4): 4*4/5(base income) *0.5(multiplier) *0.4(law collection) = 0.6 GB
Income (level 5): 5*5/5(base income) *0.5(multiplier) *0.4(law collection) = 1.0 GB
Income (level 6): 6*6/5(base income) *0.5(multiplier) *0.4(law collection) = 1.4 GB
Over three turns, that adds up to 9 GB (some rounding error here)

So now the GB cost breaks even, but there's still the 24 RP. However, now the growth bonus becomes 5*3*3 = 45 GB.

So the spell's purpose, as it is now, becomes clear. It is NOT for gaining an income, it is for boosting province growth. Unless we're either talking very high caster level (12+) or very high level provinces. That leaves a few possible issues:

Is this the intention of the spell? If not, something needs to be done.
The calculations are kinda difficult to implement in the P&H, though some small changes can be made to the P&H to make it easier.

For the suggestions:
It is kinda weird that is has no effect on Trade Holdings. Since trade explicitly represents income from export/import, that might be preferably.
Giving a constant bonus would make the spell easier to predict and make it less powerful for high level provinces. An option could be to add +5 to the province level for the purpose of Province collection only... this would open some funky questions - mainly if this stacks with Bless or not and how on earth to calculate it. Adding directly to the province level, like a bless spell, would be very powerful. I think this should remain the domain of the bless spell.
Calculations:
+5 to province level for the purpose of province collection only, heavy taxes, level 4, 5 and 6 province:
Level 4: Income: (9*9)/5*0.4-(4*4)/5*0.4 = 5.2 GB
Level 5: Income: (10*10)/5*0.4-(5*5)/5*0.4 = 6.0 GB
Level 6: Income: (11*11)/5*0.4-(6*6)/5*0.4 = 6.8 GB
Err... Broken. Minimum level (on 4 and 5 province): +33.6 GB from one casting. Inflation! Bonus need to be smaller. +2 bonus is the absolute maximum for this bonus, anything above gets crazy.

So, the questions remain:
Is the purpose of this spell to boost income or to boost growth? If the first, it needs to change, if the latter, it's fine.
Should it affect Trade Holding levels as well?
Should the effect be changed to make it easier to implement in the P&H or should the P&H be changed slightly (as we go, starting with the provinces affected) to make it easier to calculate?
Why is the pie always a lie?