MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

The next step, would be if the fanatics put out a decree that everyone had to make their official opinion known or suffer some consequence. (Hell, Kasper threatens war based on a few letters, not to mention he has gone out of his way to ingame insult Rashid.)

Its a very loose foundation for a war to be waged on.

OOC: Niels I have not threaten to wage war - I have said your attitude I translate into a wish of having cheap goblins in your army which may mean war and mind you not particularly waged by IHH.

Please read again:

Niels if you read this realize that you having goblins in your army can get real ugly PR wise and result in a couple of wars against you

[X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)]

That is your ooc comments Kasper, I believe Niels is refering to your IC letters.

As far as IHH are concerned goblin raiders will regardless of whatever arguments the good Baron kaven or the leader of Elinie come up with be killed on sight, relentlessly pursued and their lair burned out.

If the leader of Elinie tries to convince us otherwise he either has lost all sense or is in league with evil. Pretending his agenda is only good he fail to listen to any arguments, quote false and lapse to sarcasm. If he wishes to be known as the Goblin Lord it’s his choice but I ask him not to poison the mind of others.

....

Needless to say the leader of Elinie, also known as the Goblin Lord, will be held responsible for atrocities committed by goblins under his protection.

Wallac Isilviere
Pontiff Conclave of Temples
High Prefect IHH

One could read a threat or two between the lines of the IC communication. As much is unsaid, as is said, and if you first state that Goblins will be hunted down and their lair burned and in the same letter go on to call the Rashid for "Goblin Lord" and in league with evil, malicious minds could easily percieve that as a threat that even if Rashid swore the goblins under his protection, IHH will kill them... that would be an act of war. Though Kaven is somewhat familiar with Wallac and the way he reacts, by now, Thorsten firstly read this as a slap with a proverbial gauntlet. The next best thing to stating "Oh yeah? You and me, outside, right now!"   
 

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

I actually do not know the circumstances behind Elinie's invasion of Sutren Hills. - But since the province is level 3, I have to assume some degree of acceptace of the goblins as citizens is what both Elinie, LPA and PETG was thinking.

Thats what I'm going with anyway.

Also, its the al-Rasshad family that is pure strain Khinasi. The Daouta's does not have a code enforcing purity, but they are probably close to pure anyway.

[DM B]

I actually do not know the circumstances behind Elinie's invasion of Sutren Hills. - But since the province is level 3, I have to assume some degree of acceptace of the goblins as citizens is what both Elinie, LPA and PETG was thinking.

Goblins like raiding into Elinie. Assan raided back. Actually he did a little more than that, and nearly got Gerad and his army wiped out as a result (not to mention that the Mhor was killed while returning from helping Elinie vs. the goblins). In the end, however, Assan managed to gain control over Sutren Hills - but made no attempt to wipe out the goblins.

Note: There ARE humans living in the province, but the greater majority of the population is made up of goblins.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

OOC:

Wait, what? - Rashid has not spoken pro-bloodtheft at any point.

He wanted to start a debate on the issue, but the only ones answering were the fanatic religious wings...

I figured he was trying to provoke a debate which is why I strived to keep it friendly and had Loeren be tutorial rather than adversarial - however the un-named sage wound up sounding very pro-bloodtheft - one does not start a debate on murder from a 'lets take a neutral view on whether it is morally right or wrong perspective' and avoid being treated as pro-murder - the 'norm' is just so far to one side that the 'neutral' view is actually very biased.  As for fanatic side - bloodtheft directly attacks the nobility and the worship of gods as greater beings, and encapsulates the corruption of the awnsheghlien (everyone's favourite nightmare) - expect even the moderates to be very opposed to it.

[DM B]

Odd it is then, that when bloodtheft is so wicked, that it takes place at all...perhaps the lure of divine power is stronger than the morality of even Anuirean nobility? 

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

I figured he was trying to provoke a debate which is why I strived to keep it friendly and had Loeren be tutorial rather than adversarial - however the un-named sage wound up sounding very pro-bloodtheft - one does not start a debate on murder from a 'lets take a neutral view on whether it is morally right or wrong perspective' and avoid being treated as pro-murder - the 'norm' is just so far to one side that the 'neutral' view is actually very biased.  As for fanatic side - bloodtheft directly attacks the nobility and the worship of gods as greater beings, and encapsulates the corruption of the awnsheghlien (everyone's favourite nightmare) - expect even the moderates to be very opposed to it.

Same goes for the Goblin equal rights movement also started by Elinie - the norm is so far to one side that the pro-goblin view is very biased. It should come as no surprise one cannot start a "neutral" debate on an issue like this

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

Odd it is then, that when bloodtheft is so wicked, that it takes place at all...perhaps the lure of divine power is stronger than the morality of even Anuirean nobility? 

The lure of the dark side is strong....

But seriously, considering what goes on in our "real" world over money and power (oil, drugs, coups...) I'd wager that more than half our Earth population would engage in bloodtheft, provided they could get away with it. And who will stop a nobleman from getting what he wants anyway, especially if he can call the guy he took the blood from a "bad guy" or "villain"

[X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)]

Odd it is then, that when bloodtheft is so wicked, that it takes place at all...perhaps the lure of divine power is stronger than the morality of even Anuirean nobility? 

The average 13-year-old girl is stronger than the morality of most Anuirean nobility.  "Them as takes, gets", after all.  Even our pious templar Baron Roesone is simply the descendant of the region's most successful brigand.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

there's 'get away with' and 'advocate in public' - for example a lot of the nobility will be involved in trade up to their eyeballs with hundreds of money making schemes - but how many will admit to it?

Bloodtheft is about as extreme an example as you can get of embedded hypocrisy.  There aren't that many scions in Anuire, and almost all of them will be influential people of one sort or another, the person who openly admits that they see each scions as prey is immediately the enemy of all of them - even if the target might personally be quite happy to 'accidentally' usurp the attackers bloodline 'in self defence'. One should always remember the core of the noble understanding of justice 'if no one saw, or no one cares who it happened too, it didn't happen...'

You also get the god angle, which I had Loeren allude to - bloodlines are likely to have some religious import given their origin, are quite possibly the underlying basis for recognition of true nobility, etc, etc - if bloodline is a tradeable commodity then its deific value is undermined.

With goblins a lot comes down to whether goblins are just ugly people with green skin, elves are just skinny people with pointy ears and dwarves are short guys with excessive facial hair - or whether they are distinct species with different biochemistry, physiology, etc.  I obviously lean strongly towards the latter and presume neurochemical differences underlying the observed social differences in line with, for example, different dog subspecies where different breeds have strong tendencies to different psychologies.

The bigotry side then gets involved - bigotry requires 1) appreciable difference between social groups b) interaction and c) competition to really take off.  Here goblins lose out by being very distinct physically (and in my view socially), having a history of constant negative interaction, and competing for just about every resource.  While there is plenty of reason for issues as a result, they is also scope for differentiation between the goblin types - the goblins of Medoere may for example be seen very different to their forest brethren and seen as a distinct species 'our valley greyuns ain't goblins you fool!  You see paint on their face or an axe in their hand?  Peaceful lot they are, lived in the valley for generations and never bothered a soul!' - bigotry can work many ways.

[X-Alamie (Alex)]

Seems to me that ICly Elinie might be in for riding down a bumpy road 

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

The average 13-year-old girl is stronger than the morality of most Anuirean nobility.  "Them as takes, gets", after all.  Even our pious templar Baron Roesone is simply the descendant of the region's most successful brigand.

ehm.... so is his not-so-pious former vassal whose grandmother is Roesone hehe

But to get back to the topic at hand, as much as it might seem that IHH overreacted, that is alas what fanatics are supposed to do. Quite frankly, when I read about some stuff that the Pope did recently (rehabilitation of the lefebvre bishops for example) and knowing what they used to do in the middle ages (just read some crusader propaganda) the anti-goblin views of the IHH aren't even that strong.

Calling for outright war against any goblin sympathizers would be the expected reaction of even a moderate clerical leader, let alone a fanatic. However, there is always a question of pragmatism. Calling for the execution of a peasant harboring goblins is one thing, insulting a major noble house (royalty in Anuirean terms) might have repercussions that no one wants. Wars were, after all, fought over "trivial" matters of honor.

And the whole "goblin problem" in Elinie can be just a convenient casus belli for whatever neighbor would like to interfere in the internal affairs of the duchy. I doubt that anyone more than 50 miles away from Elinie would even care about their goblins but Osoerde or Mhoried might consider it a good excuse to annex a few provinces in the name of "justice and goodness"

A historical illustration. The ottoman Turks were the "goblins" of early modern Europe and yet, France, a catholic country, allied with the "infidels and devilspawn" against Austria that was considered by both to be the greater threat than a pure religious difference separating Paris and Istanbul. No French king was excommunicated because of this

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Actually from OOC perspective I do not think IHH started insulting. But when pointing out our esteemed leader, Wallac Isilviere, got quoted wrongly, the reply used quite a lot of sarcasm.
So I tried to think out how would a relatively moderate cleric (to RoE world perspective that is) react to having pre-judies questioned (goblin potential good), quoted wrong and then met with sarcasm. I think a little more fire and brim had been in place for my role but being new to game I decided to hold back a little.

It came as quite a surprise to me so few reacted against goblin perceived as potential good citizens. Where is the good old OIT

[X-OIT/Narvelon Diem-Avan]

The OIT did take one opportunity to put their point of view across actually, along the lines of the colour of goblin skin being an outward sign of the evil within and those that thought otherwise being ready to send the good folk of Anuire to be slaughtered by those cruel creatures.  Who could think otherwise??

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

It came as quite a surprise to me so few reacted against goblin perceived as potential good citizens. Where is the good old OIT

Personally, I refrain from "galaxy wide" debates that I got sort of fed up with in other PBEMs so I choose not to participate in such things unless my regent is physically present. It sort of messes up my suspension of disbelief when our regents are engaging in a dispute with people across the continent. In other PBEMs the only result were enmities that had little to no actual rationale, like Medoere meddling in a Dhoesone/Stjordvik issue or Taeghas telling Coeranys how to handle this or that which isn't all that realistic and tends to send armies on ludicrous wars a gazillion miles away

It also makes the S&C and other similar gatherings that much more special.

Now, if somone asks Arvour personally what he thinks on the goblin issue he might be inclined to share his thoughts, but not via a letter sent out to "everyone in Anuire"