Author Topic: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms  (Read 40079 times)

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Offline X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)

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MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« on: January 23, 2009, 12:28:25 PM »
When and where is this?

If I might suggest, this could make for one heck of a debate during the Sword and Crown in turn #62. If you could wait untill then, Kaven will gladly join the debate (northern Medoere has goblins living alongside humans too).

Offline X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2009, 02:18:24 PM »
*Bump*

Where, how and when is this done? Dispatches? Meeting, if so which court? Shouting from mountaintop to mountaintop  ::)? Might be good to make that clear in topic. Actually, that might be a good thing to do in all topics to avoid timeline confusions?
(Something in the lines of what we are required to write in a mails subject: [#61][Dispatch]"Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms " - would that be an idea, to help avoid confusion?)

Just an FYI (if I remember correctly) that when turn #61 ends (Bjørn threatened with doing this soon (tm) I believe), no more communication until #62 starts (at which time there might be other stuff to concern us).

Offline X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2009, 02:22:52 PM »
....Kaspar, did you just directly compare the Patriarch of Elinie to an Awnshegh?

Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2009, 04:22:48 PM »
Oh!

I completely missed this thread. How unfortunate.

Well, I was going to wait until the S&C, and then run it like a seminar, where all the lords would be there if they wanted to participate, and could request the floor to make their piece.

But I'm already discussing rather avidly with Andy and, now, probably, Kasper HA and IHH respectively) how Elinie is supposed to handle their goblins.

So I'd like to take the discussion now.

I am not exactly certain what the "Courts of Anuire" forum represents, other than a written media where the dispatches are open. Kind of like an open letter, distributed to figures of import to make certain its diseeminated across the empire.

Sort of what you'd do to posture your own opinions and maybe ridicule another regent in public.

Besides that, I hope to discuss this somewhat soberly.  :)

Surely, there must be at least one temple of Haelyn that does not condemn goblins out of hand. I mean, the "good" part of his domains alone should make certain some sect is kind to all.
Formerly: His Grace, Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta, Last Imperial Duke of the Eastern Marches, Duke of Elinie, Master of Sutren Hills, Holy Paladin of Avanalae, Light of Reason.

Offline X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2009, 04:31:00 PM »
The Courts of Anuire:
Quote
Here you can post any IC chatter you'd like to share with the community. Feel free to have your envoy to another court engage in conversation with some other dignitaries for example.

As I see it, it represents talk between several regents (or a regent and his Lieutenant, etc.) that you don't mind comes out in public. I know many games run by the practice that if it is public, chances are people have heard something about it. (I'm not sure that how RoE does it too, but that would seem a decent way of avoiding people having to forget stuff suddenly.)
You could most certainly do stuff as dispatches, the conclave of temples does it that way. It's just nice to know when we are, timeline wise, and where this takes effect, to avoid confusion later.  If you actually do it in person, that would assume that you and whomsoever you talk to, are present somewhere at sometime to discuss matters face to face. I just wanted to be clear about that, before jumping in. Wouldn't want to end up in Elenie, all of a sudden, if I only thought I answered a dispatch. ;D


Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2009, 06:10:25 PM »
Yea, Elinie can be such a bummer to end up in.  ::)

Seriously though, thats exactly the same thing I was wondering, so for the discussion in questions, I'll be assuming its either messages being passed between officials, or so-called open letters.

Its public.
Formerly: His Grace, Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta, Last Imperial Duke of the Eastern Marches, Duke of Elinie, Master of Sutren Hills, Holy Paladin of Avanalae, Light of Reason.

Offline X-MOC/Leman States (Even)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2009, 06:39:41 PM »
I'd recommend that everybody who initiates one of those threads on the forum includes a descriptive blurb at the start setting out the scene. This should then be a suitably public event to warrant any subsequent discussion being public knowledge. Other characters can then join the discussion by describing who's there (regent or some henchman), knowing what the setup is.
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Offline X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2009, 07:20:38 PM »
One of the great things about ROE is that there is no telecom provider as is often the case in other PBEMs, so any kind of interaction should be limited to physical contact of some sort and explained in that way, be that a letter or a meeting. Global UN security council type debates and meetings should be limited to the S&C.
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Offline X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2009, 10:07:43 PM »
....Kaspar, did you just directly compare the Patriarch of Elinie to an Awnshegh?

Eh no - though I hinted being Lord of goblins may result in such a comparison - I think of how ill received the Duke of Elinies words will be many places
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 10:49:28 PM by IHH/Pontiff Wallac Isilviere (Kasper) »
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Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2009, 11:13:50 PM »
....Kaspar, did you just directly compare the Patriarch of Elinie to an Awnshegh?

Eh no - though I hinted being Lord of goblins may result in such a comparison - I think of how ill received the Duke of Elinies words will be many places

Oh, but you did. And you also, quite blantantly, calls the rightful Duke of Elinie a liar. - Based on a text, that is open to public scrutiny and in which there is no lie present.

I am a little vexed, as there is only strongly negative ways to interpret such a thing.
Formerly: His Grace, Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta, Last Imperial Duke of the Eastern Marches, Duke of Elinie, Master of Sutren Hills, Holy Paladin of Avanalae, Light of Reason.

Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2009, 11:27:49 PM »
Replying to Andy's post in the Wraith thread:

Hehe, I see this post after I sent you Rashid's reply Andy.

And you confirm exactly the subtext that Rashid felt he was picking up... That if some deluded goblin shaman clings up a human or even another goblin, just for old times sake, the HA will be sweeping in with torches and burning the village to the ground.

Where did I say this?  If the typical goblin goes raiding he will get stomped - that's all.  Try to recall that the goblins were conquered only a few months ago - they still have millennia of seeing humans as prey to get over - and vice versa.  So yes the traditional goblin method of the clan hungers, the clan raids is going to get a likely belligerent response, and it may as you say lead to excessive response from the less disciplined types - which most certainly does not include the Aegis.  If the entire clan is following traditional goblins ways of raid, fight, recover, fight again they will see their warriors smashed by the Aegis, and be driven out - just as the Patriarch took the Sutren Hills by likely slaughtering its defenders and driving out those who refused to bow down, but the Aegis isn't going to just randomly start a slaughter for fun.

Please remember that goblins are not just humans with green skin - the link to Bjorn's description you provided should have made that clear. They are inherently evil - mercy is seen as weakness, laws as tools to protect the weak, neighbours as potential prey or rivals, etc, etc.  Let us not mention the demon worship and so on which turns disdain and distrust into hatred and intolerance.

Reposting also the description Bjørn has made, emphasis mine:

Goblin-kind includes goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears. In fact, in Cerilia the term “goblin” can refer to all of these species, since all are part of goblin society. The only real differences between the three are in size and strength.

Personality
Goblins as not as simple as humans would have them. While often lacking in both education and social skills, they are not far behind humanity in other areas. Tradition and family honor are very important to goblins, and goblins that do not obey their families or engage in unseemly conduct, are dealt with in a swift and harsh manner.

Most goblins are motivated by self-interest. Humans find them to be greedy, untrustworthy and quick to resort to violence (often in an underhanded manner). Goblins who spend time away from goblin society, however, seem to grasp that other races and cultures have far different values and morality systems. Goblins generally have little difficulty adapting to changes.

Relations
Goblin realms engage in trade with nearby lands, hire out as mercenaries, and occasionally strike deals with bordering lands. However, goblins are short-tempered, avaricious, and violent; only a fool would trust a goblin realm very far.

Their societies are relatively stable through, and despite the sometimes-vicious infighting between various factions, full-scale civil war remains a rare occurrence. Indeed, the great goblin kingdom of Kal-Kalathor is one of the oldest realms in existence – only the elven courts and perhaps some of the dwarven kingdoms are older.

Alignment
Goblins can be of any alignment, but many are evil and lawful. Goblins respect ties of blood, and generally honor their superiors (be they village elders, priests or representatives of the local goblin king). However, goblins are also quick to take advantage of weakness (real of perceived), and concepts such as mercy and forgiveness are not accorded much worth in goblin society(see above on changes.). Goblins also honor their codes of law, but only in so far as they have to.

Classes
Goblins can be of any class, but certain classes are more prevalent then others. Fighters and warriors make up the bulk of the goblins encountered by other races. Goblins also frequently become rogues and scouts, or more rarely rangers. The huge or bugbear portion of the goblins races are less sophisticated than their smaller kin, and often become barbarians.

Spellcasting goblins are not common, but they are not unheard of either. Goblin adepts can be found in most goblin villages, where they perform duties as healers or diviners. True priests are relatively rare, and their power in goblin society is limited. Goblin scions sometimes become sorcerers.

Realms
Goblins hold extensive realms including Thurazor and Markazor, and the great khanate of Kal Kalathor. Their kingdoms are strong and stable enough to stand as nations with laws, borders, and courts.

Goblin society is loosely organized in tribes and clans, sometimes unified under a common overlord. Goblins kings tend to be weak figures, unable to control their contentious supporters; however, for time to time a particularly powerful, intelligent, and dangerous goblin may forge an army of conquest from his squabbling subjects.

Goblins live by herding livestock, mining, selling their services as mercenaries, and raiding. They are slaveholders, and the weak among them perform most had labor.

Religion
Kartathok is the lord and patron of goblin-kind in Cerilia, and he is the head of an entire pantheon of goblin gods. The goblins aren’t exactly cautious about concealing the secrets of their religion, but few outside observers have the patience or stomach to learn more than the surface details of goblin beliefs.

Goblins are not terribly devout, but they do make a great show of honoring their gods by word and action. Accordingly, goblin temples usually have a prominent position in local communities, but have little real power.

Goblins were quick to side with Azrai during the War against Shadow, but were equally quick in abandoning him after Deismaar. Some human scholars claim that the goblin gods existed before Deismaar, but were supplanted for a period by the worship of Azrai. Others claim that at least some of the goblin gods actually ascended as a result of Deismaar, much like the gods of the current Cerilian pantheon.

Names
All goblins have a given name and a family name, much like humans do. Family names are often derived from honored ancestors, places of living and such, but over time the names have become detached from their origins. Goblins also identify themselves with their village or tribe, and many have various nicknames.

Adventurers

Of all the non-human races in Cerilia (except dwarves and halflings), goblins are the most commonly encountered race in human lands. That is not to say that they are common, far from it, but any human realm bordering goblins lads is likely to have both a number of permanent goblin residents and larger transient goblin population. Goblins in human lands are almost universally distrusted and poorly treated.
Formerly: His Grace, Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta, Last Imperial Duke of the Eastern Marches, Duke of Elinie, Master of Sutren Hills, Holy Paladin of Avanalae, Light of Reason.

Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2009, 11:40:28 PM »
They are a cruel bunch, but not evil as a race.

They do not worship demons, unless you count their pantheon as demons, but then we are not OOC but IC.

They have laws, and follow them. They do not see laws as tools to protect the weak, the powerful uses them to get what they want and keep it.

Humans see neighbours as rivals too.

Almost the entire last segment of your text is not supported by Bjørns post.

Hunger only occurs if someone is not doing their job properly. If you have fully developed manors, only an event can/should provoke a famine. - If humans hunger, they go out to raid too you know.

Markazor was hostile towards Elinie, there were lawful reasons to invade. Sutren Hills is the only province in Markazor that was not completely decimated. I do not know the whole story, but its fairly clear that much of the infrastructure was left intact.

Haelyn's Aegis do not have mandate to enforce Haelyn's will in any way they see fit. Sure, they often get away with it and I think most will agree that they are definately a force for good... But as soon as their chief says "inherently evil", then you have to expect the Patriarch to keep armed paladins well out of harms way, and that goes both ways. If the paladins do not get into SH, they won't get themselves killed, and likewise, won't kill goblins.
Formerly: His Grace, Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta, Last Imperial Duke of the Eastern Marches, Duke of Elinie, Master of Sutren Hills, Holy Paladin of Avanalae, Light of Reason.

Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2009, 12:31:16 AM »
Indeed read his post - inherently evil: treacherous, greedy, untrustworthy, quick to violence..in an underhand manner, motivated by self interest, avaricious, violent, quick to take advantage of weakness,

Mercy and forgiveness are not accorded much worth, laws adhered to only when the goblins are forced to obey.

Very definite tendency to evil, and fair emphasis also on the chaos axis.  Those features in turn lead to a poorly functioning economy and thus food supply (think Zimbabwe) - it is far easy to steal someone else's harvest than grow your own!  Doing a governance job 'properly' means doing it selflessly - the center can always do better by simply draining the wealth from those about it rather than trying to painstakingly better everyone and share in the increased wealth.

So yes goblins are inherently evil - a many may be bullied into neutrality as long as the stick is clearly visible, a few may even embrace good, but by nature goblins are prone to evil.

Note the fact that those who adapt do so away from their own society - much of the evil thus being cultural in nature rather than genetic, when dealing with entire populations conversion will be far harder - it only takes a few rotten apples to infect the whole barrel and in a larger population some will inevitably cheat the rest resulting in a race to the bottom morality wise.

As for Haelyn's Aegis do not have mandate to enforce Haelyn's will in any way they see fit.

Well actually they do, that is precisely the point - each temple enforces their gods will as they see fit - and has the right to do so.  Most churches will have many laws written specifically for them, probably have immunity from civil courts - the king may discipline them maybe but no lesser nobles, etc.  Remember that the king is crowned by the temples - the precise balance of power will vary from realm to realm but there is always going to be some degree of sharing - both between church and state and between king and nobility.  No one has absolute power in RoE (well, except Bjorn/Jon of course) and so has to tend to their followers and allies.

Sure, they often get away with it and I think most will agree that they are definately a force for good... But as soon as their chief says "inherently evil", then you have to expect the Patriarch to keep armed paladins well out of harms way, and that goes both ways. If the paladins do not get into SH, they won't get themselves killed, and likewise, won't kill goblins.

And by what right does the patriarch think do this?  He holds his position based on tradition and law - if he denies others traditional and legal rights he undermines his own.  All sorts of people have rights of justice (high, middle or low) and simply denying all of them the right to carry out those rights wipes out much of the mid-management of the Patriarch's own realm.  Similarly if the Patriarch wants to keep everyone who dislikes goblins away from them he'll have to ban just about everyone who has lived near a goblin realm all their life - like all his sheriffs, who until the hills were conquered probably had defending the people against goblins high on their to do list.
Robhan Khaiarén
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Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2009, 01:15:43 AM »
Obviously we agree, that the goblins tendency to evil is determined mostly by social factors.

We disagree when you say they lean more towards chaos than law. They have clearly defined hieracy inside their family units and hold their family high, to a degree that transcends the individual.

I wanted a discussion on what to do with the goblins, once they are accepted as part of a realm. I have heard what HA and IHH thinks about it, and that was overall negative. True?  :)

You still make some claims as to conditions that you assume to be in effect, that I simply do not agree with. Apart from a situation where it actually becomes ingame relevant, I don't think I wish to push the point any further.  ;)
Formerly: His Grace, Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta, Last Imperial Duke of the Eastern Marches, Duke of Elinie, Master of Sutren Hills, Holy Paladin of Avanalae, Light of Reason.

Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2009, 12:56:55 PM »
Partly culture, partly just innate. As to chaos it depends a lot on how you define it - if you see it as individual vs community then they lean towards choas due to their self-serving nature indicating chaos .  If you go on strong laws vs weak then I'd say they probably go the other way - brutally enforced laws being used to contain their tendency towards being self serving and keep the society cohesive.

The issue is whether they will be accepted as part of the realm, or what that acceptance means - after they are it is fairly irrelevant.

If acceptance means they get various rights and duties, but are second class citizens mostly then that is one thing, if they get absolute equality to the human population then that is another.

Try to remember that many people are still fighting goblins on the border, as a result the religions will be pushing the 'stand strong, fight on' ethos to ensure that the goblins of the Spiderfell, etc don't 'infect' the human community with goblin ideals and that the border defences stay strong.  A softer message about, or simply recognition of, the more civilised goblins within human realms undermines the former message - so is seen as an attack on anuirean culture rather than defense of the goblin culture.
Robhan Khaiarén
High Marshal of Haelyn's Aegis
Work hard, walk with honour, be justly rewarded