Question for the natives of English

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

Why "Ruins of empire" and not "Ruins of the empire"?

Would you say "Ruins of kingdom"?

I'm having trouble grasping the logic behind the absence of the article in that example.

[DM B]

Because the Anuire booklet in the original BR game was named Ruins of Empire...

[DM B]

Oh silly me, didn't grasp the question before replying 

[X-Hermedhie (Andy)]

If you wanted to address the Anurean Empire specifically the most grammatically correct way would be to say "Ruins of the Empire".

But, the phase "Ruins of Empire" has been used poetically before in many fashions, most commonly to mean any Empire or all Empires, but often for specific ones too.  Frequently for things like titles of literature, etc.  (And yes, the BR book title too.) 

So: poetic license mostly.  It sounds very natural to a native speaker's ear, and less clumsy than it does with the article attached.

If we were literally standing in the shattered ruins talking amongst ourselves, we'd include the article. 

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

If you wanted to address the Anurean Empire specifically the most grammatically correct way would be to say "Ruins of the Empire".

But, the phase "Ruins of Empire" has been used poetically before in many fashions, most commonly to mean any Empire or all Empires, but often for specific ones too.  Frequently for things like titles of literature, etc.  (And yes, the BR book title too.) 

So: poetic license mostly.  It sounds very natural to a native speaker's ear, and less clumsy than it does with the article attached.

If we were literally standing in the shattered ruins talking amongst ourselves, we'd include the article.

I agree -- it is mostly poetic license.  The reference seems to play on the idea of literal empires (Anuirean Empire, Roman Empire, etc) while also alluding/hearkening to the idea that all domains act like empires (or view themselves as well).

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

Thanks. English is such a wonderfully complicated language that, no matter how much time one spends studying and practicing it, one can never claim to have mastered it completely, for there is always an exception of some sort that pops up and tosses the "rulebook" out the window

[X-Endier & KoH/GdN (Joe)]

"The Empire" would refer to a specific political empire

"empire" could refer to that same entity, or could also refer to a not-real thing, but an idea.

For instance "That baron has dreams of empire motivating his territorial acquisitions"

So Ruins of Empire could refer to A. The ruins of The Anuirean Empire or B. the ruins of empires in general, or C. The ruins of the idea of "empire" (i.e. more de-centralization, worse roads, less trade, tougher to communicate, people are no longer Anuireans, but now Ghiestians or Rosoeneans or Avanese)

[X-Hermedhie (Andy)]

Thanks. English is such a wonderfully complicated language that, no matter how much time one spends studying and practicing it, one can never claim to have mastered it completely, for there is always an exception of some sort that pops up and tosses the "rulebook" out the window

Heh, I wouldn't treat this as a real exception.  Your question about the article and the answer you brought to the table is 100% correct.

This is much more about about being lyrical.  (Typed "waxing lyrical", but that might not be helpful!  )

And there's really no rules for that beyond what sounds pretty.  "Ruins of Empire" sounds much more pretty!

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

Andy is totally right.

English is prone to using pharses which sound right (read - not awkward), particularly in literature or the 'artistic' form of language and/or rhetoric.

[X-Ghieste & HOT/GH (Matt)]

Actually I would argue that english is very very particular about the presence or lack of. In this case it provides a very different emphasis from that which otherwise would have been delivered, implying a generality rather than a specificity of empire.

[X-SRT (Tallak)]

The above answers are much better than mine would be. I'd just say "because it sounds right - I don't know why". That's my approach to language in general. Now I do know why, though. You learn something every day.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

Hmm, here was me thinking that if referring to the actual ruins one would say 'the ruins of the empire' requiring two articles. 

Losing the articles however allows an interesting amibiguity and thus permits the interpreter to go either way depending on their inclination.

I would note however, that the book was written by an American, and thus not a native speaker of English 

[X-Ghieste & HOT/GH (Matt)]

I would note however, that the book was written by an American, and thus not a native speaker of English 

That is very true and similar to a point i decided not to make

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

And there I hoped these last two posts would start a Cross-Atlantic flame war :p

[X-Ghieste & HOT/GH (Matt)]

There is still a possibility of that I have no doubt, but it is worth remembering that those on the western side of that ocean have a tendancy to turn up to wars anything up to three years late...