Domain caster level

[X-OIT (Garth)]

I thought DCL should take into consideration highest holding level, because as the rules stand currently, a wizard or priest with a high level holding and a network of leylines or low level temples is probably better off than a domain with tons and tons of 2 or 3 level holdings.

If the incentive structure for domain expansion changes, certain domains would be slighted.  Taking into account highest holding level, this is less severely the case.

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

Because mages & priests are very dependent on character level compared to guild & landed regents. In fact to the point of making the regent the most important part of those domains.
And according to the regent guide p.9 under "Play Style" the focus of the game is domains not characters. And as such it is a conflict that a domains power level effectively is defined by its regent alone.

The regent is certainly the most important part of my domain.

One thing we might run in to, is some wizards are loners and operate largely alone.  This is certainly the case with my domain, at least at present.  My entire domain consists of the Sea Witch, a bodyguard, one LT, a cook, and two maids.  And my staff/domain seems to be larger than that of Hermedhie before me.

I've done a short write up on the Sea Witch domain for Bjorn, including tracing it back to Deismaar.  It's a domain with no fixed abode, and which doesn't assemble a court of skilled retainers - it operates very much as an individual.  That might change a little over time, now that Aneira is also the court mage of Diemed, but probably not given she is hardly ever in Diemed.

Bjorn is blowing this entire concept up. 

While the regent is important, he doesn't alone cast realm spells - conducting realm spells requires attendents, apprentices, a cabal, access to goods, or summed up...a court.  A wizardly court may be very different and perhaps doesn't require a permenant location, amongst other non-magical courts.  Court styles may (and probably should) vary based on magic type and formula (learned vs. spontaneous).

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

RE:  Regents and LTs

To keep it simply, DCL could probably work on a series of modifiers like you see for prosperity modifiers.

No Regent -5
Regent/Non-Spell Caster -5
Regent (Level:Low) +0
Regent (Level:Medium) +1
Regent (Level:High) +2
Regent (Level:Very High) +3
Regent (Level:Legendary) +4
Regent (Level:Epic) +5
Leiutenant +2
Special (Artifact - Great) +3
Special (Artifact - Major) +2
Special (Artifact - Lesser) +1
Special (Advisor/Hireling) +1 (this is an able assistance character(s) whose sole purpose is granting a bonus to the DCL)

I can think of like a ton of possible modifiers and associated domain ability/powers.

I would be inclined to personally create a system that gave domains a base DCL:

Domain	Power Range	Base CL
Slight	0 - 15	3
Minor	16-30	5
Lesser	31-45	7
Major	46-60	9
Great	61+	11

The idea here is that you cannot move beyond what is considered 'very high' for a character without special circumstances (i.e. modifiers) being attached to the domain.

[X-OIT (Garth)]

Or we could all just take a few seasons to grind levels.

Actually, I like what Alan wrote, and I think a slightly different system from arcane (spontaneous or otherwise) to divine is probably best.

[DM B]

The concept is as follows:

Sourcerous domains are just another type of domain.

That's not how it works right now. Right now a sorcerous domain is incredibly dependent upon a single spellcaster.

This setup is not desirable. In RoE that is. Maybe in BR, but not in RoE. RoE is a game where the domain is the focus, not individual characters. It is also a game that aims for interaction between domains. And sorcerous domains have always been problematic in that they interact too little. They are too independent, too removed from the rest.

A new type of holding is not desirable. Tweaking the existing source holding is. It will still be primarily about magical energy, but is also covers that energy's manifestation and everything that's required to tap it an maintain it.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

While a wizardly domain doesn't conceptually have a large number of human (or sidhe, etc) staff, I don't see a problem with it having a large number of spirits, etc that together form the domain - I'm thinking of Katherine Kerr's Deverry concepts somewhat, but you could have a L4 source holding as representing the support of the local mountain spirit, a tribe of nixies that live along the river system, a number of forest spirits, etc - all of whom keep the mebhaighl flowing, bring information, carry out duties, etc in effectively a parallel 'world' of which the average Anuirean is oblivious.  The wizard then has a court, retainers, etc, etc just like any other regent, but simply made up of beings which don't/won't generally interact with other domain types.

I've played wizards in other games and the key problems were income (they had none) and the fact that I was playing a character not a domain, if the wizard died then so did the entire domain, even if there was an apprentice to carry on their level made them impotent and the PBeM set-up wasn't geared towards the apprentice gaining levels quickly enough to compensate.

[X-MOC/Leman States (Even)]

While a wizardly domain doesn't conceptually have a large number of human (or sidhe, etc) staff, I don't see a problem with it having a large number of spirits, etc that together form the domain - I'm thinking of Katherine Kerr's Deverry concepts somewhat, but you could have a L4 source holding as representing the support of the local mountain spirit, a tribe of nixies that live along the river system, a number of forest spirits, etc - all of whom keep the mebhaighl flowing, bring information, carry out duties, etc in effectively a parallel 'world' of which the average Anuirean is oblivious.  The wizard then has a court, retainers, etc, etc just like any other regent, but simply made up of beings which don't/won't generally interact with other domain types.

While this is an interesting version of the wizards domain, and one that explains how they get anything done, it's moving the wizard in the wrong direction, clarifying their exclusion with other domains rather than forcing them to integrate with the other domains and players. Perosnally I would much rather see the arcane domains as part of the overall dynamics between all the different domains, rather than playing in their own little world.

I've played wizards in other games and the key problems were income (they had none) and the fact that I was playing a character not a domain, if the wizard died then so did the entire domain, even if there was an apprentice to carry on their level made them impotent and the PBeM set-up wasn't geared towards the apprentice gaining levels quickly enough to compensate.

I think that sums up some of the key challenges of the wizard domains pretty well. As a result my preference would be for the domains to represent a group of wizards, say the whole college of sorcery, where there would be relatively modest disruption from the regent dying. Like you say, once a wizard dies the domain is at the moment pretty much doomed.

[X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)]

One other note to consider:

If we change the concept of the Arcane Domain to include staffs, assistants, followers, and apprentices, we're giving that domain a lot of expenses - both in-game in the form of his Court costs, and conceptually in the need to support all these people.  This means that they'll have even more need to either support themselves with other, GB-generating holdings, or to integrate themselves further with other domains who'll fund them.  Changing the domain's concept means changing the world it exists in.  I don't see that as a fundamental problem, but it's another concept/description that needs to be laid out clearly.  Who/what are the Arcane Domain's sources of funds, how is it tied to other domains, what are the non-Source resources it controls?

I think Manors might be a partial answer here, either representing land that the caster has been granted in return for past favors, a title of nobility granted by a kingdom in exchange for continuing services, or simply the way the caster uses the resources of his domain and the lands around him to produce money.  Even a low-level Arcane Domain might have Manors that represent his continued casting on the villages, farms, and cities around him, and the tithe they send him as a consequence.

[X-OIT (Garth)]

I just thought this would be good to put here.

From the chat:

"(14:00:25) Points_East/EL: Suggestion: maybe change "domain power" to "domain generation" in the Regent Guide.
(14:01:00) Points_East/EL: (removing the word, "power", from it)
(14:04:38) Points_East/EL: But, as currently defined, Domain Power is not a very accurate representat​ion of relative power: is it?
(14:05:23) Points_East/EL: So, why use it, when determining Domain Caster Level?
(14:07:26) Points_East/EL: Edit: But, as currently defined, Domain Power is not necessarily a very accurate representat​ion of relative power: is it?
(14:16:55) OIT/Narvelon_Diem_(Garth): It seems to me that highest level holding combined with the number of holdings is probably a better representat​ion of power. That's what I was getting at. Using domain power as it is currently defined shifts the actual power to domains with midrange holdings that were heretofore only providing some additional income generation (for temples) and reserve power (if their holdings were somehow interrupted​) for magic."

[X-Tuornen/LF (Geir)]

But do we want wizards, magic, to be just another factor for power? Where is the mystic?
What is the point in calling it magic if it isn’t extraordinary?

[X-Brosengae [Cloene] (Linde)]

I thought DCL should take into consideration highest holding level, because as the rules stand currently, a wizard or priest with a high level holding and a network of leylines or low level temples is probably better off than a domain with tons and tons of 2 or 3 level holdings.

If the incentive structure for domain expansion changes, certain domains would be slighted.  Taking into account highest holding level, this is less severely the case.

The reason a priest domain is better if it has a high lvl holding is that temple holdings generate income and a high level holding in a high level province generates more income than tons of low level holdings in low level provinces. 5 lvl 1 holdings cost the same to maintain as 1 lvl 5, so money generating holdings are always better if they are higher.
That will still be true in either case.

The only limiting factor for a wizard domain is the level of the regent. If a lvl 9 wizard has a lot of lvl 1 sources I doubt it will take many domain turns for him to contest and rule sources until he have a lvl 5 holding.
But a lvl 2 wizard with a lvl 5 source will have to gain 7 levels putting his regent in mortal danger at least 7 times and spend years of game time to gain the same power that the lvl 9 wizard potentially can achieve in a single domain turn.

I just thought this would be good to put here.

From the chat:

"(14:00:25) Points_East/EL: Suggestion: maybe change "domain power" to "domain generation" in the Regent Guide.
(14:01:00) Points_East/EL: (removing the word, "power", from it)
(14:04:38) Points_East/EL: But, as currently defined, Domain Power is not a very accurate representat​ion of relative power: is it?
(14:05:23) Points_East/EL: So, why use it, when determining Domain Caster Level?
(14:07:26) Points_East/EL: Edit: But, as currently defined, Domain Power is not necessarily a very accurate representat​ion of relative power: is it?
(14:16:55) OIT/Narvelon_Diem_(Garth): It seems to me that highest level holding combined with the number of holdings is probably a better representat​ion of power. That's what I was getting at. Using domain power as it is currently defined shifts the actual power to domains with midrange holdings that were heretofore only providing some additional income generation (for temples) and reserve power (if their holdings were somehow interrupted​) for magic."

I disagree. The high level tempel holdings still enjoy the benefit of larger income compared to upkeep.
Cake is cake! A high level holding is cake. There is no need to give it the frosting of increased DCL.

In my opinion giving bonus DCL for a high holding is the same as giving all the units in an army bonus to their attack, defense & morale because they have a single unit that is more experienced than any unit in the enemy army. That just seems wrong to me, and so does your proposal.

You almost sound like low and mid level holdings have little effect on a domain. But to try and put it in perspective:
OIT generate 50 RP and 67,6GB.
Of those 18RP and 28,3GB come from lvl 5+ holdings, the rest come from mid to low range holdings.
That is 58% of the GB and 64% of the regency from those low to mid level holdings.... They seem to be almost worth more than the few high level holdings when looking at OIT at a whole. - And I would certainly call it an understatement that all they provide for OIT is "some additional income generation"

Furthermore, remember that OIT only generate that amount of cash because temples don't pay tax in diemed and most of OIT's holdings and all of their high level holdings are in Diemed. So for any other generic domain with the same holding levels, the mid and low level holdings would hold a higher percentage of the GB income.

The mid & low level holdings also give you the ability to cast more spells, as you can only use the same holding once each turn, and they provide a spell casting network too.

I will give you that a domain with a single lvl 10 holding is way more powerful than a domain with 10 level 1 holdings. And that domain power in no way reflects that difference.
But the power lies in having more money and a more easily protected domain and as such also more resources to fuel their spells. Why should they on top of that also have access to higher Domain caster level?
What will it bring to the game?
How will the domain with 10 x 1 level holdings ever be able to hurt the domain with 1 lvl 10 holding in any case?

[X-Brosengae [Cloene] (Linde)]

Scrap that long rant.

It will be an equal playing field for all no mater if the DCL gets a bonus from a high holding or not. As no matter what the rules become we players will do our best to rule the holding to

The real and only problem that I see is that Mage domains are in conflict with other domains in three ways:
1. They are insubstantial and hard to force interaction with.
2. They loose power when landed rules gain power (the magic disappears as the province grow in population)
3. They are a single person operation, and as such they are fragile and hard to work with.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

Generally the tie between source domains and other domains, is that the source domain supplies realm spells to affect landed domains and armies and the landed domains in turn supply GB.

It is a little unsatisfactory, but I'm not sure that making the wizard domain into a domain of magicians and wizards - who can be readily attacked by a landed regent - is the way to go.  It lacks mystery - we have multiple landed domain types and I'd almost prefer to create another 'magical' type than change the source holdings over.

I'd wonder about either increasing the cross-over in terms of spells which affect landed domains, or the types of mystical issue which can beset a landed domain and the type of side-effects that can impact a source domain from landed holdings.

The latter is however particularly difficult unless it is reduced to ad hoc DM fiat along the lines of 'to build a ley-line you need the bridge built in a slightly different place and with some charms mixed in with the mortar - it will add x GB to the cost, but will give +4 to the chance of forming the ley-line and halve the cost for a year until the mebhaighl flow changes'.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

The real and only problem that I see is that Mage domains are in conflict with other domains in three ways:
1. They are insubstantial and hard to force interaction with.

Agree, but by the same token they are handy for less involved players in a PBeM while retaining social status, etc that avoids them being ignored as a 'petty little domain'.

2. They loose power when landed rules gain power (the magic disappears as the province grow in population)

I think that this was deliberate to oppose the formation of masses of high level provinces - under vanila 2e raising the province level is fairly easy.

3. They are a single person operation, and as such they are fragile and hard to work with.

That's the key problem, Even's idea of a collection of mages is one fix, my hope would be that the fairy court approach would be another - either way you have mystical support for the regent justifying a reasonable skill level at domain magic after the regent dies even if the specific character is merely an 'the apprentice'.  I'm not sure though that you need to go the whole hog of them having a big staff to need GB's to support a court though.

[X-Sea Witch/Aneira (John)]

Before making further comment, I would observe I am certainly not opposed to the ideas under discussion and can only speak from my own perspective/experience.  I can't speak for other wizard players obviously, and I've been thinking about building a small cabal of characters to support the Sea Witch - maybe a priestess of Ruornil, a couple minor mages of some description, maybe even a water faerie or spirit of some type.  Finding all those people takes a bit of time and DO 71 is only the 4th I've submitted - and the earlier 3 mostly concentrated on the affair in Ilien, finding out more about the Red Wind, and tidying up my ley lines.  I've also made an effort to interact with other regents - I'm sure I don't do it anywhere near as much as most other regents, but I'm usually involved in 3 or 4 separate IC interactions per turn.

At the end of the day, I'm hoping changes don't fundamentally alter the demands on my time.  The primary reason I opted for a small wizard domain in the first place is I really wanted to play in this game, but didn't really have the time to take on a major domain.

One issue Andy has touched on is, I think, very pertinent. Wizard realm spells tend to be largely military in focus (e.g. helping attack stuff) or focused on the wizard's domain (e.g. spells affecting ley lines, sources, etc).  Our spell selection doesn't involve interacting with other domains very much.  But also, our interests don't have a lot of alignment - landed regents, temples and guilds have very little need of us unless they get attacked by something, or they attack something.  The rest of the time other regents tend to leave wizards alone because they genuinely don't need us, and wizards are quite happy focusing on those things that matter to them and which don't involve other domains (unless you have purely social, RPing interactions - dropping in for a glass of wine or a social chat).

If one of the goals of the changes is to encourage or incentivise domain interaction, then perhaps we need to think about this dynamic a little more.  Either looking at wizardly spells or mystical issues which require some input from the local mage as Andy suggests might be the way to go.  Personally, I think there is scope for Birthright mages, with their intimate connection to the land, to have access to some druidic-type spells.  Also, from my perspective, my major agenda is something I smply can't achieve by myself and so I need to interact with others.  So there's certainly a range of ways available out there to encourage greater interaction between wizard regents and other regents.