Author Topic: Domain caster level  (Read 19597 times)

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Offline X-MOC/Leman States (Even)

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Domain caster level
« on: April 09, 2012, 06:04:27 PM »
Random musings from me on a system using the domain power to determine realm magic caster level rather than the character levels of the regent.

Domain caster level :
 
Base: Domain Power/7
 
Regent:
Bloodline strength:         Caster level:
Minor                                    +1
Major                                    +2
Great                                    +3
True                                       +4
Vorynn bloodline             +1 (Arcane only)
Reynir bloodline                               +1 (Primordial only)
 
Examples:
For the premier temples of Anuire with a domain power in the region of 60, plus a regent with a major bloodline, total domain caster level would be 60/7 + 2 = 12. This allows realms spells of up to level 5, but will be limited in effect based on regency generation.
 
For more regional temples, with domain power of at least 35, plus a regent with a minor bloodline, total domain caster level would be 35/7 + 1 = 6. This allows realm spells of up to level 3, allowing the majority of the utility spells, but limiting any high magic effects.
 
Other factors:
 
Court: Court size does not provide any impact on domain caster level. Large courts do however provide additional court actions, usable for preparing realm spells as a realm action.
 
Bloodline score: Additional bloodline strength allows for increased RP gain each turn, allowing a greater number or more powerful spells to be cast.
 
Blood abilities: Certain blood abilities can
 
Vassals: Domains having vassals do not gain any advantage on caster level, but loss of domain power and associated spells
 
Lieutenants: Lieutenants do not affect caster level, but provides actions that can be used for preparing spells, research etc.
 
Missing regents: If the regent is missing or incapacitated, the remainder of the domain can use the court to cast spells at half the domain power.
 
Structures: Normal structures have no effect on domain caster level. Structures enabling a larger court will indirectly benefit domain. Some unique structures and domain special rules can affect domain caster level, or effective domain caster level for certain spells.
 
Character levels/feats/abilities: The statistics of individual characters making up a domain (other than those listed above) does not affect the domain caster level or casting of realm magic.
 
Magic type:
 
Each domain can only cast realm magic spells of one type; determined by their court type. For domains with Court[Covenant], Court[Temple] or Court[Grove] use arcane, divine and primordial magic respectively, while domains with Court[Noble] or Court[Guild] are unable to cast realm magic.
 
Spells known:
 
Spells known are based on the entire domain, and not limited to the regent. Even if the regent dies, the known spells are retained.
 
Additional spells can be acquired by a domain through research actions.
 
If the domain caster level drops below that required to cast a spell, the spell remains known, but not possible to prepare until the temple regains its former glory. Any spells three levels higher than that permitted by current domain caster level will be lost. Regaining lost spells can possibly be easier at DM’s discretion.
 
 
Spell slots:
 
One spell can be prepared per allowed spell level. Each spell slot can only be used once per turn.
 
One additional spell per level can be prepared, but domain must pay a number of RP when preparing spell equal to twice spell level.
 
A third spell per level can be prepared, but RP cost is four time spell level.
 
Variants:
 
Domain power divisor can easily be changed depending on level of magic desired in campaign. A lower value, such as 5, provides for a much larger number of high levels spells that can be expected to be available. A divisor of 10 will provide with a much more low-magic campaign, making even 5th level spells a rarity at best.
[Example: For a very large temple in a high magic campaign, a domain power of 100 would give the maximum domain caster level of 20 (100/5 = 20).]
 
Cooperative casting: Several domains can all concentrate their efforts to call on great powers that the individual temples. Total caster level based on adding parts of domain power of the additional temples to that of the primary caster. Only bloodline strength of primary caster affects final domain caster level. (Primary caster does not have to be domain with highest power, and will likely be a political decision.)
Second temple:                +50%
Third temple:                     +35%
Fourth temple:                 +20%
Fifth or more:                    +10%
[Example: Four temples have joined forces to strike back at the forces of the shadow that have crossed through the veil. Four temples of domain power 60, 50, 40 and 30 combine their efforts. They are being led by the regent of the temple with domain power 50, who has a major bloodline. Total domain caster score is {50 + 60x0.5 + 40x0.35 + 30x0.20}/7 + 2 = 16. This allows the combined temples to cast Banish Army (which is known by the domain of the primary caster).]
 
Court limitation: Maximum realm spell level possible to cast is limited to effective court level of domain.
 
Multiclass domains: Certain domain are allowed a secondary magic type, with separate rules for calculating the domain caster level of each type of magic.
 
 
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Offline X-Coeranys/WD (Greg)

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 06:17:46 PM »
Conceptually I like it Even, well done.  :)
Random thoughts on Even's musings...
I like the option of changing the divisor for a low magic setting.
I also would suggest some method to include the character's spellcasting levels (of appropriate type).  It just seems to me that if all other things are equal, character level should count for something.  It could be either as a limiting factor - or an additive to the formula (which might necessitate the changing of the divisor).
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Offline X-MOC/Leman States (Even)

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 06:22:51 PM »
Greg, one very simple option would be to add the regent caster level to the domain power before applying divisor. Doesn't get much easier than that.

This would help out start up domains get over any initial hurdle. Although they would still be horribly limited by regency generation.

Addendum: Personally I'd prefer to separate the two as much as possible, so as not to have character levels included at all. As a token gesture to make the regent have some additional impact, I added the bloodline strength modifier. And yes, that makes the bloodline count twice, both for RP generations and caster level.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 07:44:08 PM by MOC/Leman States (Even) »
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Offline X-OIT (Garth)

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 07:19:08 PM »
Domain power doesn't take into consideration high level holdings. A spellcaster with a good network that ties into one major holding for spellcasting potential would be powerless with this method.  Perhaps give a bonus after the division.
Highest Holding    Bonus
1-3                         +0
4-6                         +1
7-8                         +2
9+                          +3
Or maybe you could give a minimum CL based on highest holding level.
Highest Holding     MinCL
0-2                          1
3-4                          2
5-6                          4
7-8                          6
9+                           8
Missing Regents:  There could be granted positions similar to general and commander.  General level position might cast at CL-1 and commander level position might cast at 1/2 CL.  Without those positions, and a missing regent,  no casting for the domain would be possible.

Offline X-MOC/Leman States (Even)

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 07:31:48 PM »
Domain power doesn't take into consideration high level holdings. A spellcaster with a good network that ties into one major holding for spellcasting potential would be powerless with this method.  Perhaps give a bonus after the division.
Highest Holding    Bonus
1-3                         +0
4-6                         +1
7-8                         +2
9+                          +3
Or maybe you could give a minimum CL based on highest holding level.
Highest Holding     MinCL
0-2                          1
3-4                          2
5-6                          4
7-8                          6
9+                           8
Missing Regents:  There could be granted positions similar to general and commander.  General level position might cast at CL-1 and commander level position might cast at 1/2 CL.  Without those positions, and a missing regent,  no casting for the domain would be possible.

Garth, I don't think the spellcaster would necessarily be much worse off with this system. High level holdings still provide regency, which is likely to still be the limiting factor. He is still limited on the level of spell he can cast by the maxmimum holding he holds, just as the current rules do. I'm not sure I'd want to give high source provinces much more of a boost than they already have compared with spread out holdings.
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Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 10:50:13 PM »
You might allow a minor modifier - +/- 1 for a domain with a very good / very poor holdings - so if all you have is level 0-2 holdings you get a penalty of 1, whereas if you have a very high holding (7+) you get a bonus of 1.  So it is worth getting a really good holding but not overwhelmingly so and the book-keeping is kept relatively simple - it does leave the question of what happens if the special holding is contested though.

In practice the low level holding rule is probably irrelevant as the domain wouldn't have enough regency to cast the high level spells, but it might impact the Emerald Spiral or some Vos temples.

In practice the caster level is only likely to shift significantly for wizard domains where an apprentice inherits (a mid level priest shouldn't be too hard to justify) so I don't see a problem in removing caster level from the equation.

One impact of the approach is to increase the potential number of spells available to each realm.  At present getting a lieutenant who can cast realmspells is very tough, under this system it appears effectively automatic.  The real limits on spell-casting would remain RP, actions, and GB, but the action cost would be reduced in practice for temple regents at least - the 'court' can memorise 2-3 BTHL's for the larger churches allowing the church to keep 'special occasion' spells memorised, while still allowing the temple to memorise a number of bthl's for a single regent action (plus court) effectively reducing the regent action cost of BTHL's.
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Offline X-Avanil/Aubrae Avan (Thorsten)

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2012, 12:42:15 AM »

...Multiclass domains: Certain domain are allowed a secondary magic type, with separate rules for calculating the domain caster level of each type of magic.
 

Damn straight! If not, you'd hear the Princess of Avanil cackling madly from the top of her wizardess-tower while manipulating with the very fabric of reality every other hour... only outdone by the Gorgon, who'd flick his fingers and make dinosaur-exterminating meteors rain down from the sky.
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Offline X-Sea Witch/Aneira (John)

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2012, 07:08:04 AM »
Interesting work. :)

I suspect the impact of this would be to boost divine magical power in the setting, given temple domains tend to have higher levels of domain power than realms wizards, and also generally more powerful bloodlines.

Wizards on the other hand tend to have weaker levels of domain power and fewer of them have significant bloodlines.  Because so much of playing a realm wizard revolves around the wizard herself, they tend to be personally rather active rather than having a 'domain' behind them, supporting their actions. And, arguably, become more personally powerful as a result.

Looking at the original Anuirean setting (as opposed to RoE), it looks like many of the more powerful realm wizards would be reduced in power - the High Mage certainly and by a lot, but also the Sword Mage, Caine and Torele Anviras.  Most would end up around caster level 6 or 7.  And Harald Khorien might well receive a fairly significant boost in power.  In essence, this rule would level the wizardly playing field quite a lot.

You would see a degree of levelling in temples as well, though perhaps not to the same extent as wizards.

Ruins is a bit different, given the different holding data.  Here I think you'll find temples have larger domains than wizards, and so will become more powerful relative to wizards.  This might very well not be a problem (even though I'm playing a wizard, I'm not a huge fan of realm wizards being able to dramatically influence a campaign).

One question: how would you capture the fact that many realm wizards seem to live for longer-than-natural lifespans, building up (in some cases) centuries of experience, which is easy to reflect in character level, e.g. the High Mage Aelies and Caine; much harder to reflect using domain power?
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Offline DM B

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2012, 11:22:26 AM »
Non-magical holdings should not directly influence DCL. They can help contribute RP and thus indirectly add to spellcasting, but I do not think they should in any way directly add to DCL.

Also, like we discussed on Talk I think that regent and/or lieutenant caster level should have some slight effect on DCL. Not a very big one, but one comparable to a kingdom being led by a warrior-king vs. an underage girl with no military experience.
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Offline X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2012, 01:50:41 PM »
Also, like we discussed on Talk I think that regent and/or lieutenant caster level should have some slight effect on DCL. Not a very big one, but one comparable to a kingdom being led by a warrior-king vs. an underage girl with no military experience.

It could be as simple as giving a +1 or -1 to DCL if the Regent  or Lieutenant has a higher or lower personal caster level than the Domain does.  A +2 or -2 could be handed down by the DM in very specific circumstances if he feels it's warranted - Regien, for example.  A rough rule of thumb might be that 8-10 levels of difference warranted a +/- 2 modifier.

I'm not really a fan of having the Lineage of your bloodline impact DCL - if we're not going to have bloodline powers impact things on the domain level, having the Lineage do so instead seems counterproductive (and annoying to those without the 'appropriate' Lineage). 

It'd be important to make the changes in Wizard domains, especially, really clear.  This is a major conceptual shift for them, so everyone would need to understand what those domains are now composed of and roughly how they're organized.  I like the idea - if nothing else, it makes it much harder to justify training apprentices and spinning them off into secondary domains solely to provide extra Realm Spell actions, which is something we've had to deal with in our tabletop game.  It'll just need a fair amount of 'flavor' writeup so everyone's on the same page.

Offline X-Points East

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 06:44:15 PM »

Random musings from me on a system using the domain power to determine realm magic caster level rather than the character levels of the regent.

OoC:

Why Domain Power (as currently defined in the Regent Guide), even if limited to the Domain Power of magic-relevant holdings?

« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 06:55:20 PM by Points East/EL »

Offline X-Brosengae [Cloene] (Linde)

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 08:53:15 PM »

Random musings from me on a system using the domain power to determine realm magic caster level rather than the character levels of the regent.


OoC:

Why Domain Power (as currently defined in the Regent Guide), even if limited to the Domain Power of magic-relevant holdings?


Because mages & priests are very dependent on character level compared to guild & landed regents. In fact to the point of making the regent the most important part of those domains.
And according to the regent guide p.9 under "Play Style" the focus of the game is domains not characters. And as such it is a conflict that a domains power level effectively is defined by its regent alone.

Do you have an alternative method - other than domain power - that make the mage/temple domain (its source/temple holdings) more important than the regents character/class levels?

Offline X-Brosengae [Cloene] (Linde)

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 09:42:52 PM »
Proposal for Regent, Lieutenant CL impact on DCL:

Highest bonus takes effect:
Regent CL ;  Lieutenant CL ;  DCL
 ---- ; Low ; -2
 Low ; Medium ; -1
Medium ; High ; 0
High ; V. High ; +1
V. High ; Legendary; +1
Legendary ; Epic ; +2
Epic ; Epic ; +2

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Proposal for Domain Power (Spelcasting holdings only) effect on DCL

DP/5 = Base DCL

The reason for that is that almost no wizard domain has more than 40 source holdings.

----------------------------------------------------

I don't think that the highest lvl holding should affect DCL, it affects the highest lvl spell you can cast under the limit of the DCL. If it also affected DCL directly it would be double cake.

-----------------------------------------------------

Regarding BS and DCL:

I don't think that BS should directly affect DCL, but it would be cool if blood abilities that could were added, and at such a time when blood abilities are used at domain level of the game they could be available for everyone, not just spellcasters.

Offline X-Sea Witch/Aneira (John)

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 10:52:26 PM »
Because mages & priests are very dependent on character level compared to guild & landed regents. In fact to the point of making the regent the most important part of those domains.
And according to the regent guide p.9 under "Play Style" the focus of the game is domains not characters. And as such it is a conflict that a domains power level effectively is defined by its regent alone.

The regent is certainly the most important part of my domain.

One thing we might run in to, is some wizards are loners and operate largely alone.  This is certainly the case with my domain, at least at present.  My entire domain consists of the Sea Witch, a bodyguard, one LT, a cook, and two maids.  And my staff/domain seems to be larger than that of Hermedhie before me.

I've done a short write up on the Sea Witch domain for Bjorn, including tracing it back to Deismaar.  It's a domain with no fixed abode, and which doesn't assemble a court of skilled retainers - it operates very much as an individual.  That might change a little over time, now that Aneira is also the court mage of Diemed, but probably not given she is hardly ever in Diemed.
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Offline X-OIT (Garth)

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Re: Domain caster level
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2012, 11:43:56 PM »
The temple holdings represent a religious organization in a province, clerics to prepare ceremonies, libraries, collection plates and such.  These are resources that could, hypothetically, be directed at preparing and executing ceremonies to bring about divine realm magic.
Determining CL in a manner above for a temple domain would probably work well.
A source holding is the amount of raw energy tapped into by a regent in a particular province.  The comparison between magic domain types drops off after the numerical value of a holding level.  We could assume an administration and staff, but it would have to change the nature of the wizardly domain.
Another possibility is to add another arcane holding type such as guild, college, etc.  That could be used as the administration and diplomatic aspect of an arcane domain.  It could be used, along with source holdings, to determine a domain CL.  It wouldn't be the same as that for the temple holdings, but it wouldn't need to be.  Additionally, the existing source holdings could be used to determine the current wizard guild holdings for each domain.  And, the maximum level of a wizard guild in a province could have a different way in which it is determined than other physical holdings.  Minor income could be plausible from tuition when nobles send gifted children for training, or possibly as services are hired out. Etc., etc.