Author Topic: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn  (Read 7470 times)

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Offline DM B

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2013, 09:54:39 pm »
That's a mistake.

Another RP special. Short, antagonistic and not really worth anyone's time.

What is the purpose of such posts? Are they supposed to make a point? To annoy people? I don't get it.
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Offline DM B

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2013, 09:59:19 pm »
And furthermore, the issues that are being addressed all stem from the insistence that it is the domain and not the regent that is being played - that is the source of the pressure to not role play well, because with the focus on the domain rather than on the regent, there is no impetus to role play well, as there is no actual role to play - I mean think about it - how does one play the role of a faceless bureaucracy running a kingdom?

Is already addressed by the RoE ruleset. It's a strategic role-playing game. It's about domains and dynasties, BUT ROL-EPLAYED THROUGH CHARACTERS, IN PARTICULAR YOUR REGENT.

By returning the emphasis of the game back to it's proper place - the regents themselves and the interplay of their personalities, then the pressure to not role play is not only removed, but it is reversed - the pressure is now to role play well. The question is no longer "What, based on a study of the rules and my calculation of the odds is the best course of action?" to "What would a powerful wizard who hates being distracted from his arcane research do to handle this situation?", or What would Lord Rashnbold do when confronted with the opposition of the peasants?".

I can only point to my above comment. After who know how many hours of playing RoE I can say we've had a fair bit of interaction and personality.

By making this one simple change in emphasis, every domain now becomes very different in the way it approaches every single problem, no two domains will approach the same situation the same way.

Again this assumption that role-playing isn't important.
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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2013, 12:53:14 am »
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Btw: None of the situations you describe are common in my games. This is simply not the place where you find that sort of players.

Well that's good to know, however I find that a little hard to reconcile with your previous post...
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That the majority of players seem to have great issues with having vassals - let alone being vassals themselves - is something that can't be remedied by any amount of rules. It's just bad role-playing on the part of those players.
So which is it, do none of the players avoid having vassals or do the majority of them? It can't be both.

And if the vassal problem doesn't exist, then why is there a need to institute rules to prevent that sort of thing? Why make the rule tying domain size compared to BS with stability? If there is no problem with people not making vassals, then why is there a need to make a rule to penalize them for not making vassals?

All the proposed rule will achieve, other than further penalizing those with low BS, is to encourage players to put off making any vassals until they reach that magic threshold where the penalties outweigh the perceived disadvantages of making a vassal.

The excuse that the rule is needed to "explain" the existence of small dynamic domains is a total fabrication, as the rule in no way explains them.

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Another RP special. Short, antagonistic and not really worth anyone's time.
What is the purpose of such posts? Are they supposed to make a point? To annoy people? I don't get it.
That actually sounds more like your remarks in this post, after all, if saying something is a mistake is considered antagonistic then saying somebody's remarks are pointless and not  worth anybody's time most certainly must be. Exactly what is the value to anybody in this post of yours? What possible purpose could your really have other than to let me know you don't really like the way I post. Well guess what? I really don't care. I learned many years ago that there were only three people whose opinion of me is of any importance - and sorry you aren't my daughter, nor are you one of my sons.

And yes there was a purpose to my post, the purpose is to make a point - which clearly you didn't get. Oh well, not really my problem. The fact that you don't get the point does not mean that there wasn't one.

And if anybody is antagonized by my innocuous remarks on here, then I suggest they turn off the computer and do some serious looking inward to see why they are so quick to seek out excuses to take offense where none exists.

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Is already addressed by the RoE ruleset. It's a strategic role-playing game. It's about domains and dynasties, BUT ROL-EPLAYED THROUGH CHARACTERS, IN PARTICULAR YOUR REGENT.
Yes I know, and that is exactly why you have the problems that you need these rules to fix. Oh wait, that's right, you don't have the problems after all, but you still need the rules to address the problems you don't have, just in case.

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After who know how many hours of playing RoE I can say we've had a fair bit of interaction and personality.
Playing when the various proposed new rules were not in effect, therefore this fact is of no relevance whatsoever. My point is that the proposed rules will discourage that sort of thing.

The present rule set is good, no not good, excellent, it is the best Birthright variant I have come across, that's why I use it in my campaigns. It needs a few tweaks here and there, and there is the odd bug in it, but it most certainly doesn't need clumsy rules like those being proposed, nor does it need rules that take it further and further away from its roleplaying roots.

As your rules now stand, a player can play his domain (though why anybody would want to is beyond me) or a player can play his regent, and players in the same game can play either way, both methods can coexist in the same game. that is one of the great strengths of what you created, and I see no reason to take that away fro the game in the name of "simplicity"

Look, there is no need to ruin your wonderful ruleset in an attempt to recreate a PBEM version of the Gorgon's Crown game, but what the Hell, it's your baby, you do what you want with it - you won't be the first person to come out with something awesome and then turn into a piece of junk in an effort to improve it when it needed no improving. So go ahead, geld your prize stud if you want, luckily I have a copy of the rules as they stand now, before the current effort to ruin... sorry, to "improve" them started, so nobody can ruin them for me. :)

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Again this assumption that role-playing isn't important.
Well that assumption is based on the repeated statements by yourself and pretty much everybody else on here that it isn't. I am glad to know that that isn't the case, though if it really isn't, then perhaps you could explain the current drive to remove as much of the role playing aspect from the game as possible, I'd really appreciate it if you could, because it makes no sense to me to remove as many opportunities to actually role play if role playing is important to the game.
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Offline Ohlaak (Alan)

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2013, 05:09:15 am »
It's like Kasper all over.

RP, the rules Brandon is proposing as proposals, they havent been been adopted.  You are coming across as a complete ass, and someone that doesn't really plans to be a true part of our community. 

Go out and read the adventures and quests, take a look at some of the works done by players in this game - those who followed the Iron King to the Gorgon's doorstep, those who fought the insidious Eyeless One, the three brothers who fought the Chimera, the temples and magi that stood against the High Mage, the Holy order that tried, almost in vain, to prevent the destruction of Mhoried, the temple who made a champion of belinik give enough pause to know that he was almost lost and the woman who married him though loving another...

The examples of RPing are massive in this game and all occurred with a set of rules that we the players understood was a framework, the beginning, not the end.

Why not embrace this fact and move on?

Offline Ruideside/OM (RP)

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2013, 06:34:02 am »
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RP, the rules Brandon is proposing as proposals, they havent been been adopted.
No shit? That's why I am arguing against their adoption, if they had been adopted then I wouldn't be arguing against them now would I?

As for coming across as an ass, oh well, no big deal, you see, to my eye it is you who is actually being an ass as your entire post is a ranty diatribe that is not actually related to any of the posts or points I have made, and in fact rather than disputing what I have said regarding RoE it confirms it. Honestly, if you aren't going to even bother to understand what you are responding to, then why bother responding?

Nobody has said that there WAS no role playing, what I said is that the proposed rules will remove all but the most peripheral and inconsequential opportunities for it - it will reduce it to mere "fluff", to use the term you are all so fond of here.

And as far as being a part of your community here, well if the price of that is to bite my tongue and not speak up when I think something is a mistake, then no, I am not all that interested, and if you think I am being rude, well I am not, I have curbed my language and made every effort to express myself without giving any offense or to insult anybody - something you may note none of you have done, you are now the fourth person to openly insult me in the last week or so simply because I do not agree with you on this topic.

It would be nice if we could discuss this like adults rather than having you all fly off the handle at imagined slights and taking every non-lauditory comment as some sort of personal affront and ranting on to counter points that have not been argued.

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Why not embrace this fact and move on?

Because the proposed new rules are almost to a T poorly written, poorly thought out, ill-conceived, badly designed, and for the most part just plain stupid. Clear enough for you now?
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Offline Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2013, 08:59:23 am »


OoC:

A related static option:  tiny with 0-10 relevant levels; small with 11-30 relevant levels; medium with 31-60 relevant levels; large with 61-100 relevant levels; and huge with 101+ relevant levels.



I think that update to domain size is okay. Perhaps the same algorithm is also the best one for the ranges of weak, minor, major, great and true bloodlines.

I am still firmly against linking BS to domain size!
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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2013, 12:56:22 pm »
I think I agree, it's better with static sizes.

It also relates fairly intuitively to the fiction/fluff/in-character perspective. Smaller realms have to deal with less bureaucracy, there are less separate agendas at work, less feathers to smooth and so on. At an intuitive level, of course a small domain should be more effective and more stable (excepting other significant factors). Just think of the Roman Empire compared to other contemporary realms. It would fit with the idea that leading a medieval domain is in some ways more complicated than a modern country - there are far more individual power figures and divided loyalties to work with. People are far more loyal to their personal liege than their liege's liege, in general.

Also, keep in mind that this is just the minimum stability increase that is affected. There are numerous other ways to increase stability. I got Tornilen up to stability 2, even though it was a Chaotic Neutral realm. Constantly using decrees, diplomacy with my own nameless nobles, working at agendas, steady magical brainwashing of the populace and so on all helped. Maybe mostly the brainwashing.

An alternative way to make smaller domains more effective could be to make the maintenance costs climb more steeply. If the costs of maintaining a large increased faster, that would naturally encourage a consolidation of holdings/provinces.

Currently maintenance cost increase at roughly 1 GB/10 Holdings. If it went 10 holdings = 1 GB, 19 Holdings = 2 GB, 27 H = 3 GB, 34 H = 5GB, 40 H = 6 GB, 45 H = 7 GB, 50 H = 8 GB, 55 H = 9 GB, or something similar, then you can achieve something like the same effect.
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Offline DM B

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2013, 01:16:20 pm »
I think I agree, it's better with static sizes.

It also relates fairly intuitively to the fiction/fluff/in-character perspective. Smaller realms have to deal with less bureaucracy, there are less separate agendas at work, less feathers to smooth and so on. At an intuitive level, of course a small domain should be more effective and more stable (excepting other significant factors). Just think of the Roman Empire compared to other contemporary realms. It would fit with the idea that leading a medieval domain is in some ways more complicated than a modern country - there are far more individual power figures and divided loyalties to work with. People are far more loyal to their personal liege than their liege's liege, in general.

Also, keep in mind that this is just the minimum stability increase that is affected. There are numerous other ways to increase stability. I got Tornilen up to stability 2, even though it was a Chaotic Neutral realm. Constantly using decrees, diplomacy with my own nameless nobles, working at agendas, steady magical brainwashing of the populace and so on all helped. Maybe mostly the brainwashing.

An alternative way to make smaller domains more effective could be to make the maintenance costs climb more steeply. If the costs of maintaining a large increased faster, that would naturally encourage a consolidation of holdings/provinces.

Currently maintenance cost increase at roughly 1 GB/10 Holdings. If it went 10 holdings = 1 GB, 19 Holdings = 2 GB, 27 H = 3 GB, 34 H = 5GB, 40 H = 6 GB, 45 H = 7 GB, 50 H = 8 GB, 55 H = 9 GB, or something similar, then you can achieve something like the same effect.

Yes. Static size seems the better option. I think that it should be the default option.
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Offline Ohlaak (Alan)

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2013, 02:38:48 am »
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Why not embrace this fact and move on?

Because the proposed new rules are almost to a T poorly written, poorly thought out, ill-conceived, badly designed, and for the most part just plain stupid. Clear enough for you now?

I dub thee Kasper. Thanks, RP.

Offline Stjordvik/Varri (Greg)

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2013, 07:03:20 am »
RP, the volume and tone of your recent posts come across as extremely argumentative, negative, and disrespectful of others.  I have avoided chats and commenting on these and other posts because I do not want to be the target of your attacks, but enough is enough. Please tone it down and try to be more respectful of others (even if you don't care what they think).  Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 06:39:15 am by Stjordvik/Varri (Greg) »
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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2013, 04:02:34 pm »
I'm sorry I come across that way, it is unintentional, but unfortunately unavoidable, but thanks for the input. I'll try to avoid doing so in the future.
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