KoH Access Treaty

[X-Ilien & PCE/GeM (Linde)]

Geraldine turns her attention to Baron Deaulen and Archduke Alam.
Her shift of attention gives Count Nichalier a moment to compose himself without being scrutinized by the Countess.

She doesn't move away from Count Nichalier, she only turns ever so slightly around to better view the spectacle.

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Having been briefed by my aides of the negotiations taking place between KoH and the honored lords and ladies gathered here I feel a need to address the status of KoH.

Grand-Maester of the Knights of Haelyn Guy de Nichaleir, Count of Endier also know as the Red Knight enjoy the utmost trust of me. The Conclave of Temples place the greatest trust in the Grand-Maester and his knights and hope of the safety of Anuire can be ensured by their selfless bravery and stout defence.

Show them all kind of trust including free right of passage through your lands.

The Shadow is stirring but the knights ever vigiliant. Hinder them not but trust them instead.

Wallac Isilviere
Pontiff Conclave of Temples
High Prefect IHH

[X-Coeranys/WD (Greg)]

The Archduke looks at the Baron and both the archducal couple bow slightly at him. Lord Alam takes the floor with a smile:

"Your Lordship, the Knights of Haelyn are actually not a concern, and Alamie shall not forget the swords they rose in times of need. Indeed, my own Lady is the former Grand Master of the Order. No, the concern is how political rows might be used by petty rulers in a vain attempt to bend the well-being of the Empire to their whims."

The Archduke looks sternly across the floor at the delegation of Tuornen, before adding darkly:

"As to the rest, Lord William, my House will work to root out evil and blood-tainted rulers."

Lady Alam, touches slightly the arm of her husband and liege, and addresses in a soft voice to Lord William:

"Why, Lord William, your presence here is a pleasure. May we have the pleasure to have your visit at our City's estates before this Sword and Crown is ended, and each of us rides back to his lands?"

She quietly motions for her lady in waiting to offer refresh the wine goblets and offer a new one to Lord William.

"I thank you for the, clarification, Archduke.  In matters of state, I must admit that I am a simple man, and wish not to make unnecessary assumptions.  I think I have a better understand what you have said and left unsaid...  and I am coming to believe we have much in common, for I too, wish to root out evil that threatens our land."

The young Baron of Coeranys turns to Lady Alam and, taking the offered wine, smiles at the Duchess.

"My lady, you are indeed gracious.  I would be honored to visit you and the Archduke at your city estate, where I hope we may get to know each other even better.  I thank you."

Baron Deaulen bows graciously to the archducal couple, then returns to his seat.

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

The Patriarch of Elinie, has been observing quietly so far. But with the blustering entry by the Pontiff, he feels inclined to speak:

"My dear Pontiff, there seem to be some reluctance on letting armed men be allowed to roam through Anuire. Perhaps you can put our fears to rest."

"Does Haelyn speak to men? - As in, not inspiration in our hearts or instinctive knowledge on what is right, but truly speak, in words and requests?"

[DM B]

No official reply from the Prince of Avanil and his flock, but it is nevertheless made known that this would never be agreed to.

As for Boeruine (and Talinie) there really is no reply, direct or otherwise.

[X-DM Jon]

The ambassadors of Cariele and Dhoesone are also absent from this discussion.

 Not surprising seeing as how Cariele was where the deceased Daen Wyld ambushed and slaughtered the peacebound crusaders of the KoH.

 (Peacebound is a common term for binding your weapon to the sheath, making it difficult to draw. The breach of this treaty was one of the main reasons why Wyld was so vehemently opposed by so many.)

[X-Ghieste & HOT/GH (Matt)]

Ghorien stirs from his quiet seat in a corner, where he has watched the various discussions played out. In silent contemplation he takes some steps back and forth allowing the room to begin to make noise before he speaks in a clear voice that hushes the conversations that had started.

"It is true that the Knights are a living example of the All-Father to us all and that they should receive significant credit for their actions in the terrors that Anuire has faced so recently. Without their works, and of others like them, the faces gathered here would either be very different or this meeting would not happen at all anymore. But we are all here now and thanks to the Lawmaker for that wondrous feat."

A bow of the head to both the former and current GrandMaster.

"However Ghieste must find itself in concord with Alamie and Coeranys in this matter, though perhaps we may speak more directly to the challenges in the discussion than others felt able to."

"The biggest concern it would seem is the political nature of this treaty and the entities it serves; where as the Knights may have covered themselves in glory they now also have a realm under their charge. By it's very nature this means that such treaties as they may wish to see signed take on a more political aspect than perhaps they once might have. They have neighbours now, land disputes and border issues; they are a player on a political field that perhaps they were not before. Now this in itself is not a bad thing, after all Ghieste finds itself in a similar position in many ways - however there are some fundamental differences present."

The next words are spoken with more force.

"Ghieste is not requesting the right to move troops through everyone's domains. Ghieste is not answerable to political bodies, which even the conclave must confess itself to be, as the Knights are."

A shake of the head and the tone becomes less stirred again.

"Should the knights have been merely a fine Order with no such ties, instead having justice in their heart and noble sentiments in their mind then perhaps it might have been different but, even though they are but servants of the Warlord of Light, they now have such temporal demands placed upon them that this treaty cannot be expected to be accepted by any right minded Lord or Lady here present."

Ghorien turns on the floor to finish the last statements facing Tuornen.

"As to those who would lecture others on matters righteousness and good, perhaps they should carefully consider there own position before they berate Lords and Ladies who are merely doing their duty and considering the safety of their realm and the responsibilites that such domains entail. The use of such matters for political gain and point scoring is low, especially when the Knights are attempting such a noble cause."

He now turns to Sir Guy.

"Grand-Maester, Ghieste would be happy to converse with you further on such matters as you have raised but on an individual basis opposed to such a broad treaty. We thank you though for your efforts in this matter though and hope you understand the necessities of our position."

[X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)]

The Baron of Medoere pouts slightly and taps a finger to his lips as he thinks. Then, after listening to the various comments, he leans forward in his chair, to reply.
"In theory I like this idea. It gives the extended arm of the Conclave of Temples opportunity to react fast without having to wait for confirmation. But with that said, I see several problems arising, most of them secular:

Since the head of the Knights of Haelyn is also the Count of Endier, as Ghieste points out, certain ties to the secular world exists. By agreeing to allow soldiers free access, all manner of secular interests could come into effect. Mind you, from my knowledge of Count Guy's integrety, I would never suspect him. This is just musings on what problems could arise.

Secondly, certain precautions need to take place whenever troops march. The common man may be quick to sprout rumours, if armed men wearing other colours than that of their normal lords suddenly plow horses and carts through their fields.

Thirdly, and this is probably the main issue, many secular powers would balk at the potential power handed to the Pontiff of the Conclave of Temples. This is a man, who has the power to order excommunication of anyone who goes against the wish of the conclace. If he then also has the power, to order soldiers unhindered through various realms, to deal with such issues, this might make him one of, if not the most powerful man in Anuire, more so than he already is.

The gist of this is, that while the Conclave of Temples represents the will of the Gods and the interests of both the people of Anuire, and the nobility of Anuire, they only do so, as long as it goes towards a common goal of both Nobility and Clergy. And as could be seen by the latest discourse of letters concerning goblins, there are still many issues, where the Pontiff, and the temple he origins from, see different than others.

I too, would not mind speaking of this in futher detail, but I cannot in good faith sign this agreement as it stands. "

[DM B]

Marquis Bellamie of Morcosoer:

"And where are the Conclave troops at them moment? Hiding in Endier of all places. Hardly the most dangerous place in Anuire".

He laughs at his own joke.

"Sorry, that was unbecoming of me, and wholly unwarranted. I have my problems with goblins and undead at the moment, and who knows what might come from the Crown in the future.

My point is that I could well use some free military forces to come to may aid. Soldiers who are only there to help, not score political points. Now, that would be almost like...almost like having someone on the Iron Throne again."

He sits. There is much whispering.

[X-Endier & KoH/GdN (Joe)]

Your Graces,

It seems this treaty is unpopular with most of you.  I ask you to consider this somewhat plausible scenario.

In the Summer, Queen Isaelie sends her elves pouring into Elinie and Marcoesor, using Realm Magic to assist.  The forces of humanity lose their first few battles.  In the Fall, word reaches all of Anuire.  In the Fall, I can begin to negotiate with Ghieste, Tornilen, Mhoried, Marcoesor, and Elinie for military access.  If the negotiations go well, and I must remind you, just because two sovereign rulers decide they should go well, doesn't mean they will go well, then by the winter of the same year, the Knights will have permission to travel to the battle site.  In the spring of the next year, the Knights will probably be on location, along with the rest of Anuire.

Be cautious regents, of course, but the Knights of Haelyn will do as the Conclave bids.  If we can get these "legalities" out of the way now, then in the above case, the Knights would be fighting a full two seasons earlier, and may very well keep a Duchy intact.  If any of you wish to sign a modified treaty, rather then this public, multi-lateral one, I would be glad to discuss it.

As for the question by the Countess of Illien, to be honest, Illien is not a gateway to other realms, so, for instance, we can reach Rosoene or Medoere without going through Illien.  Illien itself has a strong liege-lord, and is unlikely to need a force of Knights to defend it.  So given those two circumstances, I can see why you wouldn't be interested, as you and the Knights would derive little benefit.

And finally to answer the Marquis, the Knights would be glad to assist you, but we have no military access to get to you.  Furthermore, the Conclave has not requested our presence there.  While I do believe the Knights have some latitude in responding to a crisis, I believe the first step for you would be to ask the Pontiff for Conclave support.  If the Pontiff agrees, then I will see what I can do about negotiating with all of the same regents mentioned in my "example" to get some men there.  If your need is less "urgent", perhaps we can discuss the possibility of raising a force of Knights in Marcoesor, although given the realm's poor infrastructure, that may be problematic.

[DM B]

Marquis Isilviere:

"That's funny - the chances of any elves leaving that cursed forest is...even smaller than your chances of convincing anyone of the need for this treaty. Which is bad for men like me, on the border, who might actually need help..."

[X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)]

"There has been talks in the conclave, about the need for templars at the border war-zones. That may still happen, Ruornil and Haelyn willing, but will more likely be the result of one-time agreements rather than this excact treaty, allowing the Knights free access in every country that has signed."

Kaven leans back.

"For all it's simplicity, this is a tricky proposition."

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

"Sir Guy, you paint a most unlikely scenario. The elves are not, by any stretch, the most likely force to attempt an invasion of Elinie."

Patriarch Daouta then turns to Marquis Bellamie; "While we do not agree on the eventual fate of goblins, I respect the work you have been tasked to perform. To bring peace to the northern border towards the Gorgon's Crown.

I am also aware, that a free sovereign Elinie, has to be crossed by supporting troops from Osoerde, if the provinces under your care is not to eventually fall, and be overrun by the very goblins you are suppressing and eliminating as you can.

I want everyone present, to know that Elinie is negotiating with Osoerde on this very matter, and that all the sovereign Duchy asks, is amicable and just terms of passage. - In fact, we have offered to move troops to the very northern most provinces to assist the Marquis.

Indeed, if Archduke William decides to press the matter and not negotiate, the good Knights may well find that the righteous place to be defending, would be southern Elinie, and not from goblins, but the predations of human rulers who might be tempted to use martial might over negotiation."

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

The good Baron Kaven is perhaps a bit over the mark when he proclaims the Pontiff can excommunicate those I wish. I cannot.

Secondly, the Pontiff do not command the KoH. Instead KoH is the military arm of the CoT. The Pontiff controll the economy of CoT and the Grand-Maester the military.

Patriarch Daouta and everybody else should note that CoT & KoH is not going to interfeer in the power strugles of Sovereigns. Not unless awnshegliens play a part in the conflict. CoT leave the matter of ruling to the Sovereigns.

The Pontiffs office rotate between five Haelyn Cardinal temples of which IHH currently hold office. Next Pontiff will be from WIT. Its rotating every few years and the Pontiff can be held responsible by the other temples.

Regarding the details for Excommunication they are as follows and I quote the old RoE CoT archive:
Excommunication - with a fairly limited scope.

Quoting Pontiff Gielbert Aurlien:

"The proposal put before the Conclave is that a ruler (of nation, province, law, temple, trade, guild, manor or source)  may be excommunicated by the Pontiff and his council of Cardinal's, if he is discovered to be actively working with the Lost or the Awnsheglien, or be involved in the ressurection of the Keeper of Secrets, Azrai the Shadow.

 If enough proof of such a terrible crime can be gathered, it is to be laid before the Pontiff and all the Cardinal temples for them to deliberate on. If 2/3s vote aye the interdict of excommunication is cast over the ruler."

And the specifics of Excommunication:

Quoting Gielbert Aurlien:
"When agreement has been reached that a ruler is to be excommunicated, the following steps into effect:

1. An ultimatum is sent to the ruler. Appear before the Pontiff, ask for forgiveness and accept the proper punishment, and the interdict shall be lifted.
2. If the ruler does not appear before the Pontiff, he becomes an enemy of the CoT and Conclave troops may be sent against the ruler.
3. No temple may aid the ruler, bless his provinces or in any way render aid to his cause. Temples are to refuse to pay taxes, the people be agitated to rise against the excommunicated and any other means of either forcing the ruler to walk the path of penitence or destroy the ruler utterly.

4. Anyone that aids the ruler will be excommunicated in turn."

And the question arose - "what if one or the other of a vassal-liege relationship is serving the Lost or the Awnsheglien?"

Quoting Gielbert Aurlien:
"Concerning the questions risen, the proof of affiliation with the Lost needs to be so strong as to allow two thirds of the Cardinal Temples to vote for it - as well as none of the other factions to veto it.

 That in itself is a strong voice as any. The CoT must not falter in the face of adversity in this matter and we need to set as strong an example from the outset, that aiding or receiving aid from the EO, Red Wind or any of the awnsheglien, is such a terrible crime that the temples stand united in punishing anyone doing so.

 Considering the future, where the Lost may attempt all manner of foul design to break us apart, it is of prime importance to set this strong unbending example. Even if the reality is that it will be very very hard to excommunicate anyone, because we most likely would need to have the liege on our side against a vassal - or his vassals, if the liege is the sinner.

 The temples are not there to decide who rules in their stead, so if we start breaking apart a nation to get hold of an enemy, we  will have to be in accord with either liege or vassals - at least on who is to succeed the sinner.

Because to be excommunicated, is to be removed from all proper society. Everything that binds you to the world is severed. No deal you have entered is valid anymore, no treaty, no alliance, no obligations are binding. Only the members of your familly can hope to carry your name on - if you do not go before the Pontiff and ask for forgiveness! It is thé most terrible punishment there is, and is only to be used for the most terrible of crimes. Ading those who would destroy our world and way of life."

So as you can see excommunication done by the Conclave of Temples as directed against those cooperating with the awnsheglien. It takes a lot to even get to vote for someone being excommunicated and not even such vile acts as burning random temples and plundering them qualify for being excommunicated by itself.

Similarly KoH is not intended to be put to use as a generally peacekeeping force. That is not the responsebility of the Temples but the sovereigns in Anuire.

Summing up:
CoT & their military arm KoH is directed against awnsheglien and their servants. Goblins operating out from Spiderfell is a legal target as their master is an awnsheglien.

Their can be grey areas as goblins in general often pose a threat to human settlements but in those cases its the responsebility of the sovereigns who in turn may turn to CoT for help which may or may not be acted upon.

If CoT take active part in war its not a decision the Pontiff can make by himself - its the executive body of Conclave of Temples that have to take a vote.

So by giving KoH the right to move freely a sovereign support the constant vigilance of KoH versus the vile awnsheglien and their servants. CoT is an institution with a spiritual focus; the power-play of the Scions is their own business - not that of CoT

[X-Tuornen/LF (Geir)]

In a break for refrecments Duchess Laela Flaertes of Tuornen discreetly approach the Pontiff of the Conclave, High Prefect Wallac Isilviere and Grand-Maester of the Knights of Haelyn Guy de Nichaleir.

“Most Holy Pontiff, Grand-Maester. We ask for Your forgiveness if Our presence or support has caused difficulty for Your efforts. We will somewhat withdraw from the midst of this turmoil as to not cause more damage. Our borders will never be closed for Your cause and Your forces will always find rich hospitability and support from Us as We are able.”