Decree: Grant Promotion and Advisors

[X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)]

It seems there should be a +5 DDC modifier for promoting advisors to henchmen, otherwise all henchmen effectively become 5 levels higher in the future. There is no reason currently not to hire them as advisors first (getting the -5 DDC bonus) and then promoting them later... does not even take an extra action.

The Hire help action states that there is a -5 DDC bonus for hiring advisors. If I understand it correctly, these advisors would have a penalty to administrate if given an adminstrative post directly (through the decree: grant promotion action). However, if I make them henchmen first and then give them an adminstrative post, they have no penalty. The only reason the ever hire a hireling directly (as opposed to an advisor) is to save the action to make them henchmen before giving them a post... since it is court actions we are talking about, -5 DDC bonus seems a little much for using one court action less.

This seems to be working a little counterintuitive, it seems like a "hole" in the rules. I think there should be a bonus for hiring advisors instead of hirelings, but they should then be more difficult to turn into henchmen.

Views?

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

Silence you fool! 

Perhaps you are correct though. Or maybe there should simply be a cool-down on promoting them?

[X-DM Jon]

Heh, I taught yall well 

 It's a rules loophole certainly, but then again it is a logical approach. You don't hire people as trusted assistants right away.

 Perhaps a proper way to handle it (and remove all confusion as to what is what) would be to create four categories and you need a grant to update their status:

 Advisors - only use knowledge skills on your behalf.
 Hirelings - can also use ply trade on your behalf. Get -2 on admin, military and other positions of influence rolls.
 Henchmen - Use 1 character action on your behalf.
 Lieutenants - Use 1 character action on your behalf + 1 bonus lieutenant action (each realm only gets 1 bonus lieutenant action total)

 In that way you don't jumpstart a character directly from advisor to henchman.

[X-Points East]

OoC:

Perhaps, in the context of this discussion, it would be helpful to consider the potential benefits of promoting an able assistant from hireling to henchman status?

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Advisors and Hirelings have a maximum of one action; Henchmen up to 3 total actions (could be1 Character Action, 1 Lieutenant action and 1 administrator/ply trade action).

maximum number of Advisors/hirelings is your court level - if court goes below that number some of them will leave - Henchmen do not count against court (but against something else not entirely clear to me)

[X-Points East]

Advisors and Hirelings have a maximum of one action

OoC:

Advisors and hirelings can potentially provide three actions in a given turn.

[X-DM Jon]

Current rules:

Advisors: Use knowledge skills on your behalf. You can grant positions to advisors, but they get -2 on admin rolls.
Covered by court cost.
 Grant promotion action promotes to henchman status.

Hirelings: Don't get an admin penalty.
 Hirelings conducts one character action on your behalf each turn. Hirelings won't risk life and limb for you.
Covered by court cost.
 Grant promotion action promotes to henchman status.

Henchmen: Same as hirelings, but higher loyalty and will go into dire straits by your side. Henchman status required in order to become lieutenant.
Covered by personal leadership.

Suggested rules:

Advisor: Advisors won't assume a granted position. They only use the advisor action on your behalf.
 Grant promotion action promotes to hireling status.

Hirelings: Hirelings get -2 on admin and military rolls (due to being outside of the "circle of trust").
 Grant promotion action promotes to henchman status (as before).

Henchmen: The same as before.

Lieut: The same as before.

[X-Points East]

Henchmen: Same as hirelings, but higher loyalty and will go into dire straits by your side. Henchman status required in order to become lieutenant.
Covered by personal leadership.

OoC:

So, there may be reasons to promote an able assistant from hireling to henchman status; but an hireling is already quite similar to an henchman, no?

Still, if the potential to turn advisors (and hirelings) into henchman rather quickly and/or rather easily is deemed to be a problem, then perhaps the following might be a decent addition to the current Grant: Promotion rules:  The DDC assumes an advisor/hireling, who is very well known to the regent, or a follower. . . . Add 5 to the DDC for an advisor/hireling, who is fairly well known. . . . Add 10 to the DDC for an advisor/hireling, who is not well known.

[In the style of Create Lieutenant, no?]

However, the above addition could perhaps be coupled with a reduction in the base DDC of Grant: Promotion (to 7, for example), to keep the total DDC significantly lower than the corresponding DDC of Create Lieutenant.

[X-DM Jon]

 The current difference is this:

 A hireling is different from a henchman that he/she is supported by the court, whereas a henchman is solely supported by affection/loyalty/ambition towards the regent.

 A hireling will adventure, but won't go on really dangerous missions on behalf of the regent - like the henchman would.


 And that's it. I suggest remove the option for advisors to be admins and give their negative modifier to the hireling. Making the henchman even more useful than he already is.

 In addition to making it one step harder to create lieutenants, it will remove the discrepancy in the hire help rules. You may hire an aa as a hireling at first, but it's alot easier to acquire them as advisors first. However it will cost you an additional court action in the long run.


 The real problem ain't the swiftness of it all, it's the fact that advisors and hirelings are jumbled together and the difference often forgotten. So either remove the advisor altogether and call them all hirelings with different specialties - or separate the two completely is my pov.

[X-Endier & KoH/GdN (Joe)]

last round I recruited a hireling
This round I will make him a henchman and appoint him to an adminsitrative role.
So, lets say in Jan of 2008 I meet a guy I like and hire him.
In March of 2008,  like him enough to make him a henchman.
In March of 2008, I make him an Administrator.
In July of 2008, he can start providing me with an adminsitrative benefit.

1GB to hire, 1GB to promote to henchman, 1GB to promote to Administrator.
That's 3GB and 3 turns to see much of a benefit, except he has to be such low level, that he may fail at adminsitration all the time anyway.

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

I am with Jon, personally.

In the sense that able-assistance is hired by the regent and recieve some monetary benefit or some other material support; all able-assistance is a hireling of some sort.  The distinction comes only in how far they are willing to support you and there are a number of varied logical uses for such help.  Henchmen and LTs are only a subset of the hireling classification.

For Instance:

Hireling: Architect -- expends character actions each turn to support a building project of your.
Hireling: Administrator -- expends a ply-trade: adminstration action on your behalf. (Requires a Grant - Promotion Action)
Hireling: Shipwright -- expends character actions to support Commission actions
Hireling: Advisor -- can support you through the usage of Advisor actions
Hireling: Sage -- can expend research actions on your behalf
Hireling: Commander -- can support you through adventures for warfare only (Requires a Grant - Promotion Action)
Hireling: Adventurers (General) -- adventure on your behalf in numerous moderately dangerous situations
Hireling: Adventurers (Special) -- have special affliations and/or relationship with you and are therefore willing to undertake significant dangerous tasks on your behalf.

Etc, etc, etc, etc... the options are theoretically limited only by what bjorn and Jon let us get away with OR your domain resources allow.

Notice that anytime the Hireling has broad authority within a realm (commanders, generals, administrators, etc), Grant - Promotions are neccessary to give them the appropiate authority.

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Then theres the hints about only being able to support a certain number of Henchmen depending on level and leadership score - I suggest to either remove that limit or make it known - currently I know not if I can make anymore charaters into Henchmen

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

A Henchmen is effectively a d&d Cohort.  So of course, there are limitations on how many you can have (though a regent will always have more than a regular character, afterall power breeds sycophants).  There use to be a table for all of this, but I think if you are a level 7-9 character, it would be very strange to have more than 2-5 henchmen (usually one of which will be your personal guard, another your LT and the last someone else).  All will likely be your level or less (including your EL which is +2 for more regents).

Additionally, a domain will typically only have have a number of hirelings equal to court expenditure.  BUT henchmen, followers and LTs do not count towards this total.   

I don't think there is any need to remove this limitation.

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

I meant either remove the limit or, and I prefer this, make the limits known from a tabel or some such.

[X-DM Jon]

We'll do it on a case by case basis and warn you if you're getting close to the limit. Perhaps increasing the DDC incrementally for grant promotion once you've reached a certain number.

 It's all definable by a variety of issues, some of them rpg oriented. A henchman might serve you out of personal loyalty and not count against any limit, another might be someone who's gotten onboard solely for the power and glory, he'll bugger off if you start courting too many henchmen (lessens his piece of the pie). A third party may have a specific agenda and only be on board for a certain time. A fourth might demand alot of money for his time. Etc. etc.