MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien

[X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)]

Undead are to be smitten in any way possible, same goes for truly heinous monsters (but not 'bad people').

Clerics and paladins are supposed to be examples to other men, so for them alignment tends to be more extreme than for the common folk.

Undead, Awnshegh, creatures purely of the Shadow, etc., are unworthy of consideration or honorable treatment, it sounds like.  I think as a rule of thumb, if there is any "humanity" left to a being, ambushes are probably at least somewhat uncool in Haelyn's eyes.  If they have truly given up or lost their humanity, had none to begin with, or have had it "stripped" from them by some kind of papal decree or such, they're fair game.

Meanwhile, to a devout Cuiraceanite, even those might not be appropriate to strike from ambush.  Cuiracean's idea of honor is less about the treatment a foe is due, and more about the way he expects his followers to behave re: danger and battle.

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

So we get reinforcements and do some interrogation then proceed with the wraiths the next day or what?

[X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)]

Undead are to be smitten in any way possible, same goes for truly heinous monsters (but not 'bad people').

Clerics and paladins are supposed to be examples to other men, so for them alignment tends to be more extreme than for the common folk.

Undead, Awnshegh, creatures purely of the Shadow, etc., are unworthy of consideration or honorable treatment, it sounds like.  I think as a rule of thumb, if there is any "humanity" left to a being, ambushes are probably at least somewhat uncool in Haelyn's eyes.  If they have truly given up or lost their humanity, had none to begin with, or have had it "stripped" from them by some kind of papal decree or such, they're fair game.

Meanwhile, to a devout Cuiraceanite, even those might not be appropriate to strike from ambush.  Cuiracean's idea of honor is less about the treatment a foe is due, and more about the way he expects his followers to behave re: danger and battle.

An ambush is a long-established military tactic in which the agressors (the ambushing force) lie in hiding to take the enemy by surprise.
In my eyes, that doesn't mean you cannot ambush people, spring up from concealment with weapons ready and demand their surrender. In fact, that may save many lives, if the foe believe themselves outnumbered or surrounded before the battle even begins.

I wouldn't say that is the same as sneak attacking someone from hiding. That would be the less honourable thing to do. Waiting for the opportune moment, and then slaying all with bolts and spells before they even know where the foe is.
No, an ambush for me is avoiding contact with the enemy(and thus denying him a chance to bring his numbers to bear against you) untill the opportune moment, denying the enemy time to prepare their defenses. That, in my eyes, does not constitute as an non-LG act.

The whole LG issue seems to revolve around giving the foe a fair chance. I'd consider it a more fair chance to offer someone the chance to surrender peacefully beforehand, than challenging them to the death in mortal combat (queue theme music). Preparing the ground does not seem dishonourable, but merely logical. Otherwise you would never be able to pick your battlefield with massive armies, because you would have to challenge the foe (who is often superior in numbers, as I see it) and give them the chance to dig in.

(Imagine the outcome if we had presented ourselves on the beach, and waited untill all boats where safely ashore, before challenging them? Kaven would miss more than three toes, where that the case  )

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Perhaps the reason he did lose the three toes was we waited honorable on the beach and challenged them; D

Silly jokes aside I concur with the ambush and demand surrender kind of thing - question is will Bjorn? If not I will stick with his interpretation for LG inconvenient approach or not.

[X-SASI/Orthien Tane (Rune)]

An ambush is a long-established military tactic in which the agressors (the ambushing force) lie in hiding to take the enemy by surprise.
In my eyes, that doesn't mean you cannot ambush people, spring up from concealment with weapons ready and demand their surrender. In fact, that may save many lives, if the foe believe themselves outnumbered or surrounded before the battle even begins.

I wouldn't say that is the same as sneak attacking someone from hiding. That would be the less honourable thing to do. Waiting for the opportune moment, and then slaying all with bolts and spells before they even know where the foe is.
No, an ambush for me is avoiding contact with the enemy(and thus denying him a chance to bring his numbers to bear against you) untill the opportune moment, denying the enemy time to prepare their defenses. That, in my eyes, does not constitute as an non-LG act.

The whole LG issue seems to revolve around giving the foe a fair chance. I'd consider it a more fair chance to offer someone the chance to surrender peacefully beforehand, than challenging them to the death in mortal combat (queue theme music). Preparing the ground does not seem dishonourable, but merely logical. Otherwise you would never be able to pick your battlefield with massive armies, because you would have to challenge the foe (who is often superior in numbers, as I see it) and give them the chance to dig in.

I disagree here, offering your enemies to surrender upon defeat should not be attributed to being Lawful Good, merely lawful. In my opinion even a LN character would offer this (or even a LE character, though he might execute them later). Being LG is being on the extreme end of the alignment scale - and is therefore supposed to be difficult to play. Just as being CE is difficult (it is actually hard to be that evil  ). LG is so extreme it's almost a clichè - the player tries to see good in everyone, and will certainly make sure his own actions are both just and good. In the situation you just faced, a LG character should announce himself and give them the chance to surrender without a fight. And then offer them to surrender again once they have been defeated. Probably not the wisest thing to do from a military point of view, but that's probably the reason why very few people (especially military leaders) are LG.

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Rune I believe its assumed there is good reason to even consider the attack/challene/ambush or whatever.

Your point of view almost suggest LG are not going to ever attack anyone. Meek pacifist kinda guys

[X-SASI/Orthien Tane (Rune)]

Rune I believe its assumed there is good reason to even consider the attack/challene/ambush or whatever.

Your point of view almost suggest LG are not going to ever attack anyone. Meek pacifist kinda guys

No, I didn't question your decision to attack them. I just felt that a LG character should announce himself and offer them the chance to surrender before being slaughtered. As a LG character you are certainly allowed to smite your enemies (with righteous fury etc etc), but they should still be given the chance to repent and do the right thing (i.e surrender peacefully and not kill your men).

[X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)]

I disagree here, offering your enemies to surrender upon defeat should not be attributed to being Lawful Good, merely lawful. In my opinion even a LN character would offer this (or even a LE character, though he might execute them later). Being LG is being on the extreme end of the alignment scale - and is therefore supposed to be difficult to play. Just as being CE is difficult (it is actually hard to be that evil  ). LG is so extreme it's almost a clichè - the player tries to see good in everyone, and will certainly make sure his own actions are both just and good. In the situation you just faced, a LG character should announce himself and give them the chance to surrender without a fight. And then offer them to surrender again once they have been defeated. Probably not the wisest thing to do from a military point of view, but that's probably the reason why very few people (especially military leaders) are LG.

That is actually what I am suggesting. The group of do-good'ers stealthily move into positions (some would say surround, other flanking) upon the unsuspecting enemy.
When in place, the leader would give the order, and the entire group would show themselves, weapons at the ready and demand the surrender of the foe. Failing that, they fight, after which, they would be given the option to surrender too... the whole point here beeing, that it is not physically impossible for a LG character to employ sneaking skills and subterfuge if the result is less dead men and a victory to the good side.

In the situation we faced, it was always the intention of demanding surrender before or after (though that is somewhat hampered by the fact that they spoke a different language.) The best option available seemed to be shouting the name of our gods in the hope that they recognized it and realized what we where. We just never got as far.

[X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)]

More to the point, it would do us little good to announce ourselves and our demands, barely within hearing range of the foe. Then we might as well just be standing on one bank of a river, and shout across to the enemy standing at the other, before we waded into the water, intent on whacking them over the heads once we reached the other side, at which time they would be well prepared to kill us all of, with superior numbers.

We needed to gain ground, so that our presence were a serious threat, or it would just be hollow ultimatum.

[X-SASI/Orthien Tane (Rune)]

Ah yes, I read your post a bit differently. But I see that you indeed suggest the same as I suggested - or at least something very close. I read it as you argumenting for ambushing them and then offering a surrender when they were beaten - but I see I was wrong there ^^

That said, I am very happy I'm not playing a LG character - it's dammed hindering to have to do the right thing all the time. 

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

Sometimes killing is right... Even for a LG character.

The whole Law part takes care of that. If you mellow it even further, to LN or even LE, then you can actively lobby for the law to support whatever heineous act you want to perform.

From assassination to the confiscation of cupcakes. 

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

LG is no more good than NG or CG - and while paladins in particular will be extreme LG's, its better to represent alignment by a series of shifting focuses than a set of discrete blobs - a 'moderate' LG could be closer in alignment to a NG or LN or even true neutral than they might be to an extreme LG - think of it like a wheel.  The alignment determines what spoke you follow from the centre, not how far along the spoke you go.

Most people would be fairly middle-ish if mapped onto the wheel, and so they might dip from actions typical to one alignment to those typical to another often - a guy who hates mornings might wake up CE if the builders are at it at 6 in the morning after a long nights drinking, but may mellow to LG after a coffee and a back rub from his missus....

LG does not mean lawful stupid.  If your enemy will not or cannot repent then giving them the opportunity to escape or kill your friends isn't LG, its just stupid.  Certainly any enemy who ignores a chance to surrender once, betrays you, etc, should not be given the benefit of the doubt the second time, in Br undead, goblins, etc quite likely had their 'chance' aeons ago - and having repeatedly proved themselves untrustworthy will be given a chance only by a paragon of righteousness or an idiot (no snickering at the back!)

LG means making sure that your actions support the community not merely your own desires, that your actions are socially responsible (get the warrant before kicking in the door), that you are proportionate (don't decapitate offenders for stealing bread) and fair (be consistent in applying the law), it means working within the community to better it, not riding roughshod over it.  It does not mean soft, it does not mean nice, it may mean forgiving, but not forgetting.

So if planning an ambush LE might shoot first and offer the survivors a chance to surrender - if they surrender really fast; LG might have a single brave soul stand forth and command they surrender / depart without harming their target, but if the other chooses battle then the lawful part of LG dictates that you make the battle as cheap on the community as possible, and an ambush does exactly that - all of you stepping out to implicitly say 'you will lose, give up now' is simply a psychological tactic, good guys might do it more often than evil, but it isn't intrinsically lawful that I can see unless the communal code demands it.

Surrender on defeat is not lawful in my view, die free or live as slaves is music to the ears of any evil and many neutral folk, while good people would put far milder constraints upon captives, accepting surrender should be fine for anyone - the good guys just feel more remorse over a slaughter.

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

Hey! - Goblins are not monsters. And I'm not only saying that because I'm an idiot with 50.000 of them in my garden! 

Check out this post: http://ruinsofempire.twilightpeaks.net/forums/index.php?topic=120.0

Now if your character IC believes they are nothing but little monsters, sure go ahead. 

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Goblins are monsters

Please consider reading below once again

Certainly any enemy who ignores a chance to surrender once, betrays you, etc, should not be given the benefit of the doubt the second time, in Br undead, goblins, etc quite likely had their 'chance' aeons ago - and having repeatedly proved themselves untrustworthy will be given a chance only by a paragon of righteousness or an idiot (no snickering at the back!)

[DM B]

Perhaps the reason he did lose the three toes was we waited honorable on the beach and challenged them; D

Silly jokes aside I concur with the ambush and demand surrender kind of thing - question is will Bjorn? If not I will stick with his interpretation for LG inconvenient approach or not.

I've nothing against LG characters being clever and surprising their enemies (such as described by Thorsten) - but a sudden ambush and subsequent slaughter isn't LG. Such characters MIGHT still do it (and suffer no ill consequences) against 'irredeemable' enemies, but they won't be scoring extra points for upholding the lofty principles of LGness (except that smiting the Shadow IS a Good act in itself).

Also remember that paladins have somewhat higher standards than others as do clerics. A LG paladin of Haelyn is supposed to be a shining example of everything that a LG CAN BE. Chaerles the LG peasant is probably a nice fellow, god-fearing and kin to his wife and 11 children, striving to do what he knows is right, but he's not as strongly LG as the paladin.