Some ideas for expanding the rules on cities.

[Ruideside/OM (RP)]

In RoE, cities are treated as features of a province, and only capital cities have any effect. This is a nice easy simplification, and it works well. However, it doesn’t reflect the true potential of cities. Historically, in the medieval period, cities were extremely important both economically and politically. Therefore, I propose the following amendment to the way cities are treated in RoE.

First of all, cities will remain a feature of the province they are in, and their primary effect will continue to be to raise the maximum province level of the province they are part of. What does change is the amount by which that MPL is raised and the method by which that is determined.

Rather than having only three descriptive types of city (Capital (Barony), Capital (Kingdom), and Capital (Empire)), I propose that cities be divided into five categories, based on their potential economic impact. Each category would increase the MPL by its category number. Thus a category 1 city would increase the host province’s MPL by +1, a category 2 city by +2, a category 3 city by +3, and so on.

A city when first founded will be a category 1 city, and the following factors will modify that.
Capital Status
A city that has been designated a capital will have its category increased as follows.
Type of Capital             Category Increase
Quasi-capital                                 +0.5
Minor capital (Barony)                 +1
Medium Capital (Kingdom)             +2
Major capital (Empire)                 +3

Assets & Structures
Certain assets and structures (port, cathedral, university, etc.) could also increase a city’s category. I suggest an average of an increase of +0.5 each

ECONOMIC EFFECT OF CITIES.
Because cities are a more efficient manner of organizing a population for more advanced economic activity, the presence of a city in a province will increase the income from Manor, Temple, Guild, and Trade holdings by 10% per category.

EFFECT OF CITIES ON SOURCE POTENTIAL.
The presence of a city, regardless of category, will reduce the current Maximum Source Potential by 1 (subject to the minimum level rules).

What do you think of this idea?

[Ruideside/OM (RP)]

I should add that the cost of founding a city should be affected by climate/terrain/remoteness like other constructions

[Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)]

well, I think the cost/gain/Time to found has to balance somehow. What does it cost to found a city and what should its build DDC be?

The idea has potential.

[Ruideside/OM (RP)]

Those details have yet to be worked out, but I was thinking something along the lines of a base cost of 2 or 3 GB (modified by terrain/remoteness) and a base DDC of 10 (again modified by terrain/remoteness)

[Yggdrasil (DM Andy)]

An approach for building in the various cities would be good, at present its flat.

Bjorn's rules mean that income increases significantly as province level increases though, so the cost would probably be a lot higher if the population was expected to utilise the extra levels (consider the cost of Ilien's twin towers which boost trade only by comparison) and an income gain would come inherently throguh that population rather than needing to be added.  But in practice provinces over L6 are very rare, and if its by the coast that only needs a L4 capable province, so the counter-argument would be that the max population benefit is something of an illusion so shouldn't be paid for except in desolate areas - where a city isn't as likely.

I'd note that there is a lot of abstraction in the system, so a L6 province for example presumably has a city, even if it doesn't show on the P&H, one could say that the various cities that are features are representing the "above average" city elements rather than the city itself, while not representing the grand structures within the city as those already have mechanics to represent them - so a very efficient city layout, an exceptionally well functioning bureaucracy, a particularly good location for resources, etc would be represented by the city mechanic.

[Ruideside/OM (RP)]

My understanding is that at present a city of any sort (i.e. those listed in the P&H) don't actually add a level to the province, but only add to the province's maximum level, so the benefit is often somewhat theoretical, which was the reasoning behind giving the income bonus.

And yes, there will be a tendency to rather unrealistically only found cities in crappy locations so as to benefit from the increase in MPL, and that was the reason for making cities more expensive to build in such locations, in order to offset that tendency somewhat, and yet still remain realistic - it would be cheaper and easier to found a city on a nice fertile plain than in the middle of the barren wasteland. However, building in the wasteland should not be impossible - as shown by Petra, or the Anatolian cave cities, such cities were built.

As to the cost, well my 2-3 GB was just a rough guestimate, that is one of the details that would need to be worked out, though I don't think it should be too, too expensive, nor should the DDC be to high.

[Ruideside/OM (RP)]

Having looked over some of the other structures, the cost should be increased, however, do keep in mind it only costs 1 GB to create an entire province.

[Stjordvik/Varri (Greg)]

I like this conceptually.  If I understand the math from this proposed model correctly, the larger provinces would benefit more (proportionally) from the same relative gb investment compared to smaller provinces, but I think that is actually not only appropriate, but a realistic improvement.  Of course there are different sized universities, cathedrals, etc., so one could refine this even more (along the same lines) but perhaps that would be too much detaila and be simply diminished returns, but the "above average" concept would work well.

[X-CJS/Ruormad Coumain (Tristan)]

I like it conceptually, but that is the innate builder in me that wants to make a fantastic city and be able to say that I built it. I don't think that this is beneficial to the game.

By it's nature everything in RoEx is an abstraction. In this instance cities are currently considered to be a feature of the province that they are in, and I am not sure that this should be changed. As a city grows it impacts the area around it. The humble village in the L1 province grows over time to be at the crossroads of a major trade route in the now L4 province.

In my mind you cannot logically build a city in a province and not have it impact the level of the province.

I also don't see why establishing a city generates a increase in income, this is a ludicrous concept when you imagine a newly built city in a L1 province. It wouldn't make money, the people supporting it would haemorrhage money so fast they'd never even realise they had it.

If you want to build a city then there is a action already present that will let you plow money into a province to grow it faster.

[Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)]

I agree that cities as a structure should be restricted to higher provinces. Or provide province growth rather than income.

[Ruideside/OM (RP)]

Excellent point regarding low level provinces Tristan. Perhaps we should limit the creation of a city to provinces of at least level 4.

And regarding cities being a feature of the province, I just want to point out that that has not changed. Cities remain a feature of the province.

[Ruideside/OM (RP)]

Linde, when you say "provide province growth", do you mean that you think that founding a city should add levels to the current province level as well as the maximum province level?

[Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)]

No. I meant that as an alternative to the extra income to holdings a city could provide a gb bonus to province growth

[Ruideside/OM (RP)]

Interesting idea!

[Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)]

For instance if the city cost 1 gb in maintenance but provide 2 gb of province growth per season.