Hire Help

[Yggdrasil (DM Andy)]

OK, Bobby's workshop is now open...

My thoughts:  The core problem is in relation to the very high DC hires, where in practice the issue is trying to hire a lieutenant / other key person in one action - it is inherently something that should be done in several stages.

So:
1. Identify the problem - and convince the domain of the need.
2. Find a pool of potential recruits
3. Recruit selected person into an outer position
4. Move person up a tier action by action until they are where you want/need them
5. Hope that they stay there.

Even where the recruitment is internal - which should be fairly commonplace, you are still moving someone from local notable to domain-wide power-player, so a series of actions seems reasonable.

You wouldn't need each stage to be separate for many hires, and a lot of the time you might get an option come out of an adventure, or other domain play which reveals someone who might be great, or gives you a way to approach someone, etc.

A lieutenant's support gives +2 (usually), so I'd expect that on any given action a bonus of -5 to +5 could be expected from role-play, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong by an act of genius - or genius-level insanity.

[Ruideside/OM (RP)]

That makes sense, after all a Lieutenant is somebody who is empowered to speak for you, so presumably he/she would be somebody you have taken time to get to know and trust, not just someone who happened to see a "help wanted" poster down by the docks.

[Yggdrasil (DM Andy)]

If you are after an expert one action should suffice, it's only the "specials" who don't work in the written system, and from comments what was actually done was the spark (diplo, adventure, etc) followed by several actions.

I'd allow for a high roll achieving more than one stage, and a low roll getting someone good on paper but possibly with problems, a regent should however always be able to get somebody, it's somebody right that's the hard one (particularly for people with rare talents).

Some degree of fluffiness from DM's will always be necessary, and I'd rather avoid "I need 18+ to get them rolls" as that encourages multiple 1 gb/1RP lottery tickets rather than a solid plan which would be roll-play rather than role-play.

[Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)]

Well. I for one find the rules for what you can ask for murky...
The power of your hired help, seems largely to depend on what skills you say he have and your reason for him knowing those skills. And while description should give a bonus it should either enable you to talk the power of the character up, or be a modifier on the DAC, not sometimes one, sometimes the other and possibly both.

Here is a way the rules could be more clear:

Base DDC 5.
For that you get a low level character proficient in one skill

per level increment added + 3 DDC (medium, high)

One skill (proficient) added +1 DDC. Seccond +2 and so on

Skill upgraded from proficient to skilled. +1DDC for the first, +2 and so on

Skill upgraded from skilled to expert +2DDC for the first, +3 for the seccond and so on

Skill upgraded from expert to master + 3DDC for the first, +4 for the seccond and so on.

Realm magic ability: +3DDC per caster lvl

Bloodline +5DDC per step of strength (weak, minor... and so on)

All DDC increases are cumulative.

So a medium lvl unblooded character with 1 skill(skilled) and one skilled(master), unable to cast realm magic would be DDC 17
(Base 5 + 3[lvl] + 1 [skill added] + 8 [Skills upgraded])

This kind of hard number DDC would be more clear. And would eliminate doubt about what you can expect your hired help to do if you succeed your action.
But I don't know if it will solve anything except giving us number trolls peace of mind.



A way to solve the problem of trying to pull powerful characters out of thin air could be to set a time factor(5 times the DDC for instance)
A failed roll gives you your DAC modified result in progress towards getting the character. When you reach the time factor you get the character,  and obviously a successful result gives you the character as well.
(if a player then tries to hire a character who is not available in the setting then the DM can explain that when the first action fail and where little resources are lost)
This approach will make Hail Mary attempts at getting 18 on the dice less attractive if you need a helper right now.

Hope my thoughts can help

[Stjordvik/Varri (Greg)]

Interesting discussion and proposals here.  I am not a math head, but conceptually (numbers aside) I like what is being suggested.  I could live with the current method, but It seems such a system as put forth would be an improvement, though without an example it might be difficult for the first timer to decipher, so defintely include an example and/or a table for reference.

[Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)]

By request:

Hired Help by level:	Base DDC
Low	5
Medium	8
High	11
First (Best) skill	DDC modifier
Proficient	+0
skilled	+1
Expert	+3
Master	+6
Second skill	DDC modifier
Proficient	+1
Skilled	+3
Expert	+6
Third skill	DDC modifier
Proficient	+2
Skilled	+5
Expert	+9
Fourth skill	DDC Modifier
Proficient	+3
Skilled	+7
Bloodline strength	DDC modifier
weak	+5
minor	+10
major	+15
Caster lvl:	+2 per lvl

Numbers from my proposal as a table.
You pick the level of the character, then you pick his most important skill, and then you decide to add up to 3 more skills.. Always adding the highest one first.

Lastly you choose BS if any and CL if any.
Remember:
Low= lvl 1-3
Medium = lvl 4-6
High = lvl 7-9
So don't be adding CL 5 to a low level character.

[Torele Anviras/TA (Niels)]

Yea that works. If caster level is not = to actual level, it indicates multi-classing.

Only thing left is to entice the GM's

[Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)]

So getting a high level master (spellcraft) skilled(Diplomacy) Proficient(administration) BS Minor. CL 8 Wizard/Expert capable of casting realm magic would be a DDC: 42

High lvl 11
Master(spellcraft)+6
Skilled(Diplomacy)+3
Proficient(Administration)+2
BS minor: +10
Caster Level 5: +10

[Silver House/ClDh (Bobby)]

I see three different methods of resolving actions such as Hire Help being proposed here.  I think we all agree we want a consistent, clear set of rules rather than haphazard kludges or undocumented exceptions, so lets look at each option in turn, using the example of hiring a mid-level Wizard for advice and adventuring.

1) The Classic Method: This is the primary method used under Bjorn in RoE 1 & 2.  DDCs must be met in a single roll and retried from scratch if the attempt fails.  Additional 'Supportive' Actions can be performed alongside the Primary Action to provide simple numeric bonuses. 
Example: Hiring the wizard has a DDC 25.  Diplomacy performed with the Tower of Wizardry provides a +6 bonus to the DAC, requiring a 19 total from the roll and Influence.

2) The Sequence Method (Andy): Multiple actions must be performed successfully to achieve the goal.  DDCs for these actions are lower individually than the single DDC of the Classic Method. 
Comments: Bjorn used this method several times in RoE 1 & 2 with my actions, especially Research actions.  However, this method would likely be less well-defined than the Classic Method, as creating a set rule structure for how many actions of what DDC would be needed would be very hard.  The DM would have to make judgement calls on a case-by-case basis. 
Example: Hiring the wizard requires two to three actions, each with DDC 10-15, depending on the DM's judgement - one would be Hire Help, and the other(s) would depend on how the player goes about the hiring, flavor-wise.

3) The Cumulative Method (Linde): A single DDC is set for a single action type.  Multiple attempts can be made, with their results accumulating until the DDC is met.
Comments: My tabletop game uses this for Progress actions when designing new military units and new structures.  We carry over 1/2 of the  die roll and the full Influence spent each season as an accumulating bonus to future rolls - this lets us make steady progress towards the final result over the course of several seasons.  Our DDCs for actions handled this way are typically VERY high by RoE standards - creating a new Legionnaires unit was a DDC 80 and took over a year, but the result was superior to any other shock infantry in the region. 
Example: Hiring the wizard has a DDC 25.  Three Hire Help actions are performed over two season, resulting in a 10 and a 7 in the first season for a total of 17, and a 14 in the second season, for a successful total of 31. 


Once we're all agreed on how we want to perform actions (with Matt having a particularly loud voice in that), working out the details of how to calculate DDCs or actions required will be more straightforward.  I like a lot of what Linde's proposed - it may be more 'crunchy' and detailed than is needed, but I don't think that will hurt things, and will help avoid confusion.  First, though, I'd like to get people's comments on the larger possibilities that Andy and Linde have suggested.  What do you guys think?

[Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)]

I like the cumulative method best! (Pat on the back to whomever came up with that idea)

I don't know if it would be better to set the goal for accumulation higher than the DDC, but say that a successful roll always gets you the man now. Or keep the goal level with the DDC.?
I think keeping it level with the DDC would be easier, but it is definitely a tweaking tool the DM could use to make Hail Mary attempts unattractive.


Sequence Method: Is also a viable option. One way to quickly adapt it would be to say it take one action +1 per 15 in the old DDC and that the new DDC is half the one I proposed... But this method still has the risk of zero progress and the feel of failure is greater if you have to redo an action.
Even though rolling a 4 when you needed 11 is no guarantee you wont roll 4 again. 


Classic Method: Well, I never really felt this option was in play. I always got a character out of my effort. Not always one who could do all what I set out to find, but at least some of it. And that is something I liked a lot. A classic method with failed action = try again is something I would like to avoid. So I hope DM team will go for Sequence or Cumulative method.

[HTC/Linnias Baccaere (Libor)]

I like the cumulative method too. And I think that not only Hire Help action could add to total. Well aimed diplomacy, adventure or espionage action should do it too. Other thing is, you shall never know how much you have accumulated (only DM know it).

Accumulated "success" could wane over time. If you do all your actions in a single turn, you should be more "efficient" than if you do one each turn. Also, action's spectacular failure could subtract from your goal.

I would also like the possibility of not so perfect candidates popping up halfway your effort, tempting you to take what is available rather than spend more time and effort.

[Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)]

great ideas Libor

[Torele Anviras/TA (Niels)]

I agree, Libor that is a great idea.

After some discussion in the chat, I think I believe most in the model Linde put in above, but with approximately doubled DDC's.

The catch is that you accumulate your result over time. Possibly with a loss per turn as Libor suggests.

When the total DDC is finally met, a character with those exact attributes appear.

The point of control in this model, for the GM's, is that the Player has to describe this new character with a proper story and background. - And if the player asks for something too silly, the GM simply asks the player to revise their request.

GM's workload is thus reduced to keeping track of the accumulating tally.

The Hire Help action is producing what could be called "HirePoints" for a "HirePool". Either for a character concept, but sometimes for a specific existing character.

All NPC's can be "priced" using the list above. And modifiers added to this HirePrice as the GM's see fit.

GM's can hand out "Favor" towards a hire attempt of any established NPC to a Player domain when they do nice or impressive things with that NPC.

It is fairly simple to keep track of, mechanically very predicatable and still completely under the GM's control.

[Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)]

I like the cumulative method too. And I think that not only Hire Help action could add to total. Well aimed diplomacy, adventure or espionage action should do it too. Other thing is, you shall never know how much you have accumulated (only DM know it).

Accumulated "success" could wane over time. If you do all your actions in a single turn, you should be more "efficient" than if you do one each turn. Also, action's spectacular failure could subtract from your goal.

I would also like the possibility of not so perfect candidates popping up halfway your effort, tempting you to take what is available rather than spend more time and effort.

Just to advocate the other side:
One could also argue that you should get diminished returns if you use 3 hire help actions in one turn... Your not more efficient just more annoying.? "Stop knocking on my door already, I am perfectly happy with my current employer!"

Bonus for doing it over several turns.? You're taking your time, laying the right strategy to enthrall him to join your cause.

But definitely nice with hidden accumulation and possibility of using several different actions.

[Ruideside/OM (RP)]

Just to throw a wrench into the works, I like the idea of combining the sequence & cumulative method.
meaning you have to hire the person, then promote him.

Also, speaking from a looooong experience as a DM (36 years), the cumulative method is going to be an annoyance for the DMs to track, especially if it is extended to a lot of actions.