Rule Holding

[DM B]

Me likes too...

Similar actions will have their DDC reworked too, to keep things consistent.

[X-Alamie (Alex)]

Very cute!

[X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)]

So how does this affect the Rule Source Holding action? Is the magic potential or the province level added to the DC?

[DM B]

Magic potential

[X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)]

A small concern... I think this might be a little over the top.

Understand me right, I've not played with this or the previous edition of the rules and I get that this is supposed to make the holdings a little more static and more of a long term investment.
I hope I'm not whining, but I look at the numbers and I think that the small fish (anyone with <20 GB income, <50 RP gen) are gonna get hit very hard by this.

Some examples:
My domain, Tornilen, has a Source (2) holding in the North Fell of the Spiderfell. It's competing against Lord Gorman's Source (4) holding. The magic potential of the North Fell is 8. It's very hard for either of us to increase our holdings.
DDC to rule my Source (2) to Source (3): 10 + 3 (holding lvl) + 4 (gorm's source) + 8 (potential) = 25. In order to make that by taking 10, I have to spend 30 RP, I get 38 each turn. I have the remaining 8 to overcome whatever lord Gorman spends on stopping me.
For Gorm the DDC to rule his source (4) to source (5): 10 + 5 + 2 + 8 = 25. Making 18 RP/turn, he's not ever going to rule that one up, having to spend 30 to take 10, then overcome what I spend to stop him.
I've ignored stability for this example.

Different example:
Barony of Serien, Serien (5/2):
Someone wants to create a Law (0) holding in Serien, Xavier Zenneth controls a Law (4) holding, hardness applies.
DDC: 10 + 5 (province lvl) + 4 (hardness) = 19. The agressor has to spend 18 RP to reduce it to 10, then overcome XZ's defensive spending.

Now... My point is, those numbers look awfully high, unless you've the income to overcome them. GB counts more than RP - they can be spent 1/1 to reduce the DDC. I think that adding the province level / magic potential to the DDC of rule *whatever* actions reinforces the status quo rather heavily. In my example, neither lord Gorman nor Tornilen/SM, is going to get that remaining source level anytime soon.

I'd suggest that we start out with adding ½ magic potential or province level to the DDC and see where that takes us, which is more in line with the numbers you initially suggested.
DDC = 10 + new level + ½ province level is almost as cute

Of course, my perspective is that of a small fish looking at the big boys, but the numbers seemed... daunting, considering the income of my domain and other small realms in the game.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

Why add both your's and his source?

L2 to L3 in a L8 potential realm is then DC 10+3+8=21 - take 10 and spend 11 RP?

Gorm L4 to L5 - DC 10+5+8=23 - take 10 and spend 13?

Am I missing something on the cost - I thought it was 1 RP per 'bump', not 2 as per your example?

[X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)]

According to the regent guide:
Hardness applies to the rule holding/source action. You add both your new holding level and the levels of opposing holdings of the same type.

The lowest price for 1 "bump" of influence (+1 DAC or +1 DDC) is 2 regency points OR 1 gold bar. So if you have a high income, it's not such a big problem. If you have to rely primarily on regency, it might be.

Like I said, I've only played previous editions of birthright and I'm just looking at the numbers here. If this is supposed to be part of the challenge of playing a small domain, then I'm looking forward to finding a way around it I'm just feeling that the change in the rules will have a huge effect on relatively small domains that rely on regency points a lot. Perhaps bigger than intended.
 

[X-DM Jon]

Looks to me like Alexander has a point.

 These rules will make the GB low rulers like source holders very slow in expanding. Obviously that could be considered a point in itself, forcing the source holders to either expand into actual nationbuilding - or spending some of their precious time on either diplomacy or alchemy.

[DM B]

A small concern... I think this might be a little over the top.

Understand me right, I've not played with this or the previous edition of the rules and I get that this is supposed to make the holdings a little more static and more of a long term investment.
I hope I'm not whining, but I look at the numbers and I think that the small fish (anyone with <20 GB income, <50 RP gen) are gonna get hit very hard by this.

Some examples:
My domain, Tornilen, has a Source (2) holding in the North Fell of the Spiderfell. It's competing against Lord Gorman's Source (4) holding. The magic potential of the North Fell is 8. It's very hard for either of us to increase our holdings.
DDC to rule my Source (2) to Source (3): 10 + 3 (holding lvl) + 4 (gorm's source) + 8 (potential) = 25. In order to make that by taking 10, I have to spend 30 RP, I get 38 each turn. I have the remaining 8 to overcome whatever lord Gorman spends on stopping me.
For Gorm the DDC to rule his source (4) to source (5): 10 + 5 + 2 + 8 = 25. Making 18 RP/turn, he's not ever going to rule that one up, having to spend 30 to take 10, then overcome what I spend to stop him.
I've ignored stability for this example.

Different example:
Barony of Serien, Serien (5/2):
Someone wants to create a Law (0) holding in Serien, Xavier Zenneth controls a Law (4) holding, hardness applies.
DDC: 10 + 5 (province lvl) + 4 (hardness) = 19. The agressor has to spend 18 RP to reduce it to 10, then overcome XZ's defensive spending.

Now... My point is, those numbers look awfully high, unless you've the income to overcome them. GB counts more than RP - they can be spent 1/1 to reduce the DDC. I think that adding the province level / magic potential to the DDC of rule *whatever* actions reinforces the status quo rather heavily. In my example, neither lord Gorman nor Tornilen/SM, is going to get that remaining source level anytime soon.

I'd suggest that we start out with adding ½ magic potential or province level to the DDC and see where that takes us, which is more in line with the numbers you initially suggested.
DDC = 10 + new level + ½ province level is almost as cute

Of course, my perspective is that of a small fish looking at the big boys, but the numbers seemed... daunting, considering the income of my domain and other small realms in the game.

Valid points all. Of course, you realize that you are using a high-magic province as an example, which would make it as difficult as ruling mundane holdings in for example Endier. A more common example would be a magic (5) province, ruling the source up to lvl 3. Then the base DDC would be 10 + 3 + 5= 18.

Of curse, with the rules as is, any other source holder (if any, that is!) could increase the difficulty by adding his existing source. So lets say that's another +2, for a final DDC of 20.

Admittedly quite high, and 5 full points higher than before. And you can't take 10 if you spend RP/GB on the action, so you'd be forced to roll. So you probably want to give yourself a +15 bonus, and that's a lot of RP/GB, even before Gorm starts spending in return.

The problem is a bit more acute for mages perhaps, but the points are valid for all domains and regents.

[DM B]

Looks to me like Alexander has a point.

 These rules will make the GB low rulers like source holders very slow in expanding. Obviously that could be considered a point in itself, forcing the source holders to either expand into actual nationbuilding - or spending some of their precious time on either diplomacy or alchemy.

Making mages more dependent on mundane resources (GBs) is part of the agenda. But we have to remember that sources does not generate gold, so pushing them too hard is unfair.

[X-DM Jon]

Will the contest action be changed as well? Or is it going to be easier to destroy than to build?

[DM B]

Contest will be changed if rule is changed - but contest will be slightly cheaper (as it has been all along in RoE). It's an important principle; it's easier/cheaper to destroy than to build.

[X-EOM/SS (Marco)]

is it possibile, if I'll spend many RPs, while contesting to lower an holding more than one point?

[DM B]

is it possibile, if I'll spend many RPs, while contesting to lower an holding more than one point?

No. Only one point at a time.

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

Maybe sources could have a special rule, perhaps even allowing 1:1 RP ratio. Although this would make the system a bit more non-unified one could argue that sources as such are not tied to matters of mundane infrastructure, logistics, bribes etc like law, guilds and temples are since all of these "more public holdings" depend on and try to reach out to the masses.