Suggestion: Realm Magic Update - Caster Level

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

I have been meaning to write this topic.  As it stands, character level has largely been abstracted, but this does really translate well to realm magic/caster level. I would propose the following for spell casting characters/domains:

Character		Maximum		Caster
Level		Spell Level		Level
Low (1-3)		2nd		3
Medium (4-6)		3rd		6
High (7-9)		5th		9
Very High (10-12)		6th		12
Legendary (13-15)		7th		15
Near Epic (16-18)		8th		17
Epic (19+)		9th+		20+

Note: This table assumes a character with a singular focus in spell casting.  In cases where the character are multiclassed or of secondary focus, Maximum Spell Level (MSL) and Caster Level (CL) are reduced by 1 for each additional class.  Characters in which spellcasting in which spellcasting is of tertiary focus, MSL and CL are reduced by 2.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

The other way of doing it is to put the strain on the source/temple.  So you can cast any level spell as long as you have the power, and level is ignored.  The idea being that weaker PCs make more use of ritual power, aides etc than stronger ones, and the real limit is the source/temple level only - although perhaps you could impact failure rate a bit, or say that persistently relying on a more skilled aide risks a great captain/etc.

It may though seem a bit strange for a low level PC to cast a very high level spell, but it would make it easy to get replacement PCs for wizards (particularly) and temples where the loss of the regent could cripple the realm long term simply because dropping a few levels with the replacement could remove 1-2 levels of spells from the domain.

[X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)]

What do you mean by secondary/tertiary focus?

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

The other way of doing it is to put the strain on the source/temple.  So you can cast any level spell as long as you have the power, and level is ignored.  The idea being that weaker PCs make more use of ritual power, aides etc than stronger ones, and the real limit is the source/temple level only - although perhaps you could impact failure rate a bit, or say that persistently relying on a more skilled aide risks a great captain/etc.

It may though seem a bit strange for a low level PC to cast a very high level spell, but it would make it easy to get replacement PCs for wizards (particularly) and temples where the loss of the regent could cripple the realm long term simply because dropping a few levels with the replacement could remove 1-2 levels of spells from the domain.

This is part of the design, I would think.  Death should be traumatic for domains, particularly when it is of their regent/

Incidentally, another wrinkle of this is that I was thinking that established domains (in particular) might have a base level, dependent on history, importance, etc, when it comes to spell casting. 

Additionally, this 'all-in' system would remove some of the individualism of domains.  For instance, in theory, Maire Cwyllmie becomes marginalized, despite being the most power cleric within Anuire, by the system. 

e.g.

The OIT has an illustrious long history, due to the richness of this temple, its history and the ingrained dogma and rituals within the temple, it has is always treated, at a minimum, as a High level caster for the purposes of casting realm magic.

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

What do you mean by secondary/tertiary focus?

Largely, this is intended to penalize characters/domains who are not purely spell-casting domains. Conceptually, a domain whose focus is only on magic should be more capable than a domain should does not (though they will compensate this through other means, increased RP, GB, etc).

Primary:

Domains which singularly focus on the pursuit of magic (in whatever form). Usually, the regent is not multiclassed or multiclassed within the various spellcasting types (think Cleric/Mystic, Wizard/Sorceror, Wizard/Druid, etc) nor does the domain focus on non-source/non-temple holdings typically.  Additionally, these domains will typically be aloof from temporal pursuits.  Incidentally, it is very rare for temple domains to be of this category.

• Examples: Regien, High Mage, Arlen Innis (the Storm Warden), Hermedhie, Mhistecai, Kalieman, Savaane Dhoesone, Eastern Temple of Nesirie (due to Marie Cwyllmie)

Secondary:
This will represent the lion share of most temples and landed spell-casters.  This represents a domain in which the ability to wield realm magic is important, and in which magic plays an important role, but this domain does not pursue magical endeavors with singular purpose.  These domains will typically have multiclassed regents and have significant interest in numerous holding types or temporal obligations/pursuits.

• Examples: Holy Order of Haelyn's Aegis, Orthodox Imperial Temple of Haelyn, the Sword Mage, Aubre Avan, Impregnable Heart of Haelyn, Western Imperial Temple of Haelyn, Eastern Temple of Nesirie (Once Cwyllmie is gone), etc.

Tertiary

These are domains which are focused over numerous complex pursuits in addition to spell-casting, burgeoning spell-casting domains, regents who come late to spell-casting, or those who acquire spellcasting ability from a prestige class alone.  Typically, these domains will have significant interests in numerous prusuits and have regents who are multiclassed (within three or more classes).  Often times, these domains will not be able to wield realm magic (but it is not neccessarily unheard of either).  Additionally, these domains may have access to numerous magic types (divine & arcane, primodial & divine, etc).

• Examples: Baron Tristan Bellamie & Berendor Coasters, Countess Geraldine el-Mesir & Port of Call Exchange, The Wardens

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

It may though seem a bit strange for a low level PC to cast a very high level spell, but it would make it easy to get replacement PCs for wizards (particularly) and temples where the loss of the regent could cripple the realm long term simply because dropping a few levels with the replacement could remove 1-2 levels of spells from the domain.

This is part of the design, I would think.  Death should be traumatic for domains, particularly when it is of their regent/


Additionally, this 'all-in' system would remove some of the individualism of domains.  For instance, in theory, Maire Cwyllmie becomes marginalized, despite being the most power cleric within Anuire, by the system.   

I agree in the main, but the current trauma is extreme for source domains in particular - go from L12 master to L3 apprentice and you lose almost all realm spell capability and with it a good chunk of playability.  Less of a problem for a temple domain but still far from trivial.

Incidentally, another wrinkle of this is that I was thinking that established domains (in particular) might have a base level, dependent on history, importance, etc, when it comes to spell casting. 

That might be a good half-way house.  As alternatives the base level could either add to the caster's level (linearly or in amortising form) or, say, a regent could always cast spells of level equal to half the focus being used, but can only cast more powerful magics if the regent has the personal capability.

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

My two cents:

The level scale presented here, actually Reduce the spellcasting ability by postponing access to higher level spells. - I don't favor that approach.

Second, hiring a high level caster is not easy, but not impossible either. So losing a high level regent can be alleviated, to a degree I digress, by hiring a strong caster.

Introducing this new system will completely remove characters from the equation. In a War, the ones going to cast 0lvl realm magic are whom exactly? - Unlimited numbers? - Faceless minions?

But hey, I'm in the camp favoring more development of the characters and their influence on realm play, not the other way around. 

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

The level scale presented here, actually Reduce the spellcasting ability by postponing access to higher level spells. - I don't favor that approach.

This isn't totally fair. 

In my system conceptually, a 4th level character gains access to 3rd level magic and does so at a higher caster level and a 7th level caster gains 5th level magic. 

While it is true that high level spellcasting is penalized somewhat, it was done with an eye toward RoE flavor - rare magic setting where high level magics are even rarer.  This system tries to incorporate this.

Second, hiring a high level caster is not easy, but not impossible either. So losing a high level regent can be alleviated, to a degree I digress, by hiring a strong caster.

But this isn't really how domains work, and is virtually unheard of within temples.  Spell casting domanis can alleviate this issue by ensuring that they acquire and train proper heirs, but incidentally, this is another occurance that has been rarely attended to by temples and source domains.

Introducing this new system will completely remove characters from the equation. In a War, the ones going to cast 0lvl realm magic are whom exactly? - Unlimited numbers? - Faceless minions?

No domain gets out of the basic requirement that battle spells and realm spells require a regent (or LT) capable of wielding realm magic (meets all the basic requirements).

But hey, I'm in the camp favoring more development of the characters and their influence on realm play, not the other way around. 

RoEII is a game about domains, it is the domain that every player plays even as the domains outward manifestation is often, but not always, the regent.

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

I see, so you actually made it a tad easier at the lower levels, I missed that. Still don't entirely agree though.

I'm sorry to move the discussion off on a tangent, but if the role in war and adventuring is not also addressed, then a domain without access to individually powerful casters will always be at a disadvantage.

Right now, you hire in powerful people for casting, war and adventuring.

If we make casting abstracted, a domain thing, then you make it much more accessible over all. Many domains will be tempted to grab a few holdings of caster type, simply to gain the power therein.

Meaning, the boost to adventuring and war becomes much more targeted on individuals for this purpose alone. Rogues and Fighters and such would gain a popularity boost, perhaps at the cost of regents often being quite puny next to their hired help. - Their ECL is all that matters, blood and casting no longer does.

We see some trending of this, in Lannelah, the Green Knight and a few other super powered NPC's that can be played by domains crafty enough to turn them to their causes.

In most landed domains, losing the regent often means the rule falls to a younger descendant. (At least in optimal situations) - Temples and Wizard domains are at least more free here.

There is no reason to not have 2 level 11 priests, one the regent, the other the lieutenant and heir.

Same for Wizards, the Three Brother Mages would be an example I suppose, although they are running out of brothers fast.

I see this trend moving the regent back further to a position as figurehead and little else. No longer a Hero-King, just a King.

Apart from the setting, there is almost no connection back to D&D. I'm not even sure which side of the fence I'm on, against or for, I'm just pointing out that this change has radical impacts beyond realm magic alone.

[X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)]

Interesting suggestion Alan.

Like Niels, I am not sure whether I am in favor or not. In one way it will help alleviate the problem that Mage domains like mine face - if the regent dies, the domain looses a lot of it's power. Guild and Fighter domains do not have this issue.

There is a difference between how much regent level matters, for fighter and rogue domains, and for mage and temple domains. This could be seen as an imbalance, on paper mage and temple domains are stronger. In the game, fighter and rogue domains are in general stronger, because their realms are stronger.

While Alan is right that we are not just playing or regents, but the entire domain, that does not necessarily mean that regents and their lieutenants cannot be fleshed out to a larger degree than currently. A domain is the sum of it holdings, provinces, regent, able assistants, economy, alliances, etc. Detailing one does not mean the others goes away.

The biggest point in favour of this, that I can see, is that it makes spellcasting regent work, conceptually, the same way as other regents. They have their skills, which are usually more useful on the domain level. Spellcasters have their... spells.

Also, the only spells that are made harder to access are the 8th and 9th levels spells. Spells that no one can cast currently (except maybe for a few elven regents) and that would completely shatter the balance of the game anyway. Eg. the spell that instantly takes control of an entire province and every holding in it. Would make the whole Ilien situation a lot easier for some.

Niels is right though, system-wise there are no reasons not to pick up a source or temple holding or two. With access to a realm spell caster, they make any domain slightly more effective (or drastically more effective). There are in-character and thematic reasons not to do so though, reasons that seem to be weigh more heavily.

Personally I would try to smoothe out the difference between domain types by making character levels a little more important for non spellcaster regents. A slight powerboost to them, to explain why the most powerful regents in Anuire are primarily fighters and rogues. Ymmv though.

[X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)]

I'm not clear why you feel this is removing the regent from the equation, Niels.  He's still the one casting, his level is still the primary limiting fact; the only difference is that his levels have been abstracted from 1-20 to Low - Epic the same way they have been for all other purposes.  Yes, an LT can cast as well - that's the same as right now too. 

If you're referring to the idea of a domain having a kind of 'minimum' casting level, the primary regent would most likely cast at higher than that to start with, so there'd still be a potency to the regent.  In addition, it wouldn't help anything for a non caster domain to grab 'a few holdings' - that non-caster domain wouldn't have any baseline casting ability, since it has no tradition of such.  Same for domains grabbing holdings of the kind they're not suited to (wizards grabbing temples).   They might have baseline casting ability of one kind, but they wouldn't have it in the other.  The fact that you're a level 12 wizard wouldn't let you cast level 4 cleric realm spells unless and until you took levels of cleric and, presumably, began training in divine magic.  Which would be a radical departure for the domain to match the radical departure in its capabilities.

Theoretically, a noble could hire a divine or arcane caster, get some appropriate holdings, and start casting that way.  They can do that right NOW, too.  Nothing changes there.  The problem with this, of course, is that the process of getting those holdings is likely to piss some people off - if Osoer or Rashid start taking temple holdings from the IHH or LPA, I suspect there would be....

Consequences.   

Lastly, Bjorn is capable of maintaining sense and functionality within rule structures.  Example: Tristan is now a low-level caster.  According to the strict rules Bjorn made, he should be able to cast realm spell despite not personally having the feat required, because he is a regent.  However, Bjorn quite readily informed me that since my domain has no tradition of spell-casting, I don't get that particular freebie.  Suck it up, Bobby.  Why?  Because while the rules made sense in most cases, they didn't in this one and were sidestepped appropriately.  So I don't think we have to worry about Guilders suddenly taking a few actions and then firing off their own Bless spells as desired.

What exactly do you see this changing, aside from going from a level 1-20 system to a level Low - Epic system?

[X-Ilien & PCE/GeM (Linde)]

I dont get it.... Geraldine is multiclassed.... She has one additional class so she gets -1 MSL & CL, then she by your example is defined as tertiary and gets -2 MSL & CL

Questions:
Are those two culmative?

As I read this table my regent will get penalized.. More than I think is fair. (Regardless of the answer to my question)

I think the idea could be good... It is nice to have the same standard for all.

But concepts as secondary and tertiary focus can really hit a realm hard on their ability to cast spells, so they really need to be well defined so some (Red. I) can understand why they are being hit with a nerf bat... And the only way to clearly define a characters ability to cast spells is through their individual class levels, not what actions they are forced to spend resources on as a realm.

I think the idea of substracting one from MSL & CL for each additional class the caster has, and perhaps substracting one further if the character only has access to spells through a prestige class would be sound. But dont mix a characters domain into it...

[X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)]

I think the fact that she's multiclassed says the same thing as that she's not focused on casting.  Only one penalty ought to apply there.  I'd say that either of those methods of adjustment should be used, not both.

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

Questions:
Are those two culmative?

It is an either-or system, not a stacking system.  So, they are not intended to be cumulative.  At most each spell caster is being levied a penalty of either +0/-1/-2 or at least that is how envision the system.

As I read this table my regent will get penalized.. More than I think is fair. (Regardless of the answer to my question)

I think the idea could be good... It is nice to have the same standard for all.

But concepts as secondary and tertiary focus can really hit a realm hard on their ability to cast spells, so they really need to be well defined so some (Red. I) can understand why they are being hit with a nerf bat... And the only way to clearly define a characters ability to cast spells is through their individual class levels, not what actions they are forced to spend resources on as a realm.

At the heart of your question seems to be "Why would I be considered a 'tertiary' spell-caster?"

The basic gist is that this particular domain (and thus its regent) has some very complex things it needs to juggle. Firstly, it has guild interests spanning numerous domains and cultures.  Secondly, the domain has significant temporal interests as the Countess of Ilien, a county that is the second largest city/county within Anuire.  Thirdly, it has significant magical interests.  All of this culminates into an inability of a domain/regent to truly focus on the prusuit of magic/spell-casting and thus it is penalized for such.   In fact, this domain is intended, by design, to sacrifice specialization for utility/diversification, I think.   Additionally, the union of the two domains (county of Ilien/sources of Ilien and the PCE) is a relatively new domain (as a single entity at least), less than 5 years in fact.

All of these things culminate into why I would place Geraldine as a tertiary spell-caster.  Incidentally, the nerf bat isn't actually that  bad.  Unlike most other wizards, Geraldine would normally have the resources to fund her actions and has less of a need to skimp and plan.  Geraldine also has accesss to temporal resources that most wizards wouldn't.  Ultimately, it ends up a net zero sum game, IMO.

Lastly, please note - I only listed the above domains as examples of where I would place domains given my limited knowledge of them.  Bjorn/Jon, of course, would ultimately determine categories.

[X-SASI/Orthien Tane (Rune)]

All of these things culminate into why I would place Geraldine as a tertiary spell-caster.  Incidentally, the nerf bat isn't actually that  bad.  Unlike most other wizards, Geraldine would normally have the resources to fund her actions and has less of a need to skimp and plan.  Geraldine also has accesss to temporal resources that most wizards wouldn't.  Ultimately, it ends up a net zero sum game, IMO.

Lastly, please note - I only listed the above domains as examples of where I would place domains given my limited knowledge of them.  Bjorn/Jon, of course, would ultimately determine categories.

Moving slightly off-topic here, but anyway: Considering Geraldine so far has held quite a few domains at bay while they are trying to bring her down, I'd say that her tri-role seems to be working quite well. I'm certain some players would even say too well 

Edit: Those players are of course only jealous