How Birthright uses names wrong!

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

Wir CAROLUS der Vierte / von Gottes Gnaden / Römischer Käyser / zu allen zeiten Mehrer des Reichs / und König in Böhem

Aldebrandin, von gottes und des apostolischen stuhls gnaden markgraf von Este und der mark Werners

Otto von gottes gnaden herzog zu Österreich und Steyr

Wir Friderich von gottes gnaden Römischer keyser ...

Wencezlaus dei gracia rex Boemie quartus et sacri per Germaniam imperii procurator

These are just a few examples I found on the net, but which demonstrates that the creators of Birthright completely messed up the naming of characters. It hit me today while I was reviewing in my mind how a typical charter went that I've never, ever in any medieval source, seen a LAST NAME, and of course, because no one ever used them.

Charles IV and Wenceslas IV are both "Luxemburg", and Otto is "Habsburg" but they never referred to themselves as such, its an anachronistic "tag" that was ascribed to them later on by historians when last names became common practice. I'm too tired to write extensively on this, but the gist of it is the following.

Darien, by the Grace of Haelyn, Prince of Anuire, Duke of Avanil, etc.

Not Darien Avan.....

Aeric, btGoH, Archduke of Boeruine....

We players got so used to each regent having a last name when in fact our characters shouldn't even be aware of such a concept. A noble is the sum of his titles.

Thus, for Gavin "Tael" there should have been a castle or something called "Tael" for him to get that name and he would never use it personally, nor would anyone ever address him as such. He'd be Gavin, baron of Ghoere.

There shouldn't be a Laela Flaertes, but just Laela, Duchess of Taeghas. What Flaertes is supposed to mean, I've no idea, perhaps an ancestral fief her family hails from, but the thing is that even if it were so, to actually use that as a principal title would be demeaning. She could be "duchess of Taeghas, countes of Haess, lady of Flaertes" for example, but not Laela Flaertess.

I just can't understand why I never thought of this abominable and anti-noble Birthright concept before...

I can, however, imagine many people referring to the "duke of Ghieste" as Ghorien (of) Hiriele 

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

Just to clarify what I mean by this. Its not that players should suddenly stop using the "traditional Birthright names" for reference purposes, but IC they shouldn't be used.

For example the Khaiaren brothers all come from some small fief (fort, castle, manor...) called Khaiaren and they all belong to the "Khaiaren dynasty"

Robhan, High Marshal of the Haelyn's Aegis,
Maevous, baron of Rivien (Boeruine)
Unnamed (LOL), count(?) of Soliette and Mholien (Elinie)
Torebhan, count of Sunken Lands (Osoerde)
and sanother unnamed brother, a paladin of Cuiraecen

The might all have "lord of Khaiaren" at the end of their title (I've no idea where that would be but it would probably be something small) or they might not, depending on how they feel about their ancestral possession.

What they wouldn't do is call themselves Khaiaren

[DM B]

Been aware of the "problem" for many years now Robert...and with you being a man of history an all...shame on you!

It even cropped up on BR.net not so long ago...

I considered making some naming conventions, but for simplicity's sake we keep things as they are. BR folk are very fond of their bloodlines, which are often named in honor of the (legendary) first of the line. So Darien, Prince of Avanil etc. is also Darien AVAN, of the blood of Avan, that most noble and prestigious lineage (next after Roele that is).

Sounds reasonable enough Mr.scholar? 

[DM B]

For example the Khaiaren brothers all come from some small fief (fort, castle, manor...) called Khaiaren and they all belong to the "Khaiaren dynasty"

Robhan, High Marshal of the Haelyn's Aegis,
Maevous, baron of Rivien (Boeruine)
Unnamed (LOL), count(?) of Soliette and Mholien (Elinie)
Torebhan, count of Sunken Lands (Osoerde)
and sanother unnamed brother, a paladin of Cuiraecen

What they wouldn't do is call themselves Khaiaren

So you place Robhan ABOVE his other brothers? AND spell the ancient Khaiarén name wrong? In Haelyn's name brother...

[X-Ghieste & HOT/GH (Matt)]

Errrr, Fantasy game, with fantasy naming convention? There are a whole bunch of things in almost any game that does not work as per real world; it is the price (and some would argue the glory) of the game. 

Plus they are used - for example Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick and his wife Lady Anne de Beauchamp. The family names are not used so often in some documents due to variations in naming conventions and the use of title or land holding instead of an individuals name, but certainly in a large number of British cases it is used.

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

Hmmm... Neville comes from "new town" and names with "de" stand for an ancestral possession.

Are you sure he would actually write down "I Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick..?" I'm curious as this was most certainly not the case in the Holy Roman Empire.

[X-Ghieste & HOT/GH (Matt)]

The current western naming convention is a development of the English language following the Norman invasion of 1066. A French Norman influence brought a more precise naming set including the use of surnames than had previously been in use in Anglo-Saxon England. I am not surprised that it is not in use in the Holy Roman Empire though as it took the greater urbanisation of the late medieval ages to enforce the social change across Europe, though some places clearly adopted it earlier....

"In Europe, surnames began to be used in the 12th century, but it took several centuries before the majority of Europeans had one. The primary purpose of the surname was to further distinguish people from one another. In the 13th century about a third of the male population was named William, Richard or John *. To uniquely identify them, people began referring to different Williams as William the son of Andrew (leading to Anderson), William the cook (leading to Cook), William from the river (leading to Rivers), William the brown-haired (leading to Brown), and so on. Eventually these surnames became inherited, being passed from parents to children.

Broadly, most surnames fall into four categories.

   1. Surnames derived from First Names include Johnson, Williams, and Thompson. Most often they are patronymic, referring to a male ancestor, but occasionally they are matronymic.
   2. Occupational surnames refer to the occupation of the bearer. Examples include Smith, Clark, and Wright.
   3. Locational or Topographic surnames are derived from the place that the bearer lived. Examples include Hill, Woods, and Ford.
   4. Surnames derived from Nicknames include White, Young, and Long. "

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

Found it

Ricardus Neville Comes Warwici Dominus le Despenser Glamorgancie & Morgancie et Anna uxor eius Omnibus presentes literas nostras inspecturis salutem Inspeximus literas patentes Charissime Matris nostre Isabelle nuper Comitisse Warwici Domine ladespenser Glamorgancie & Morgancie factas in hec verba....

Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick, Lord Le Despenser of Glamorgant and Morgant, and Ann his wife, unto all who shall inspect Our present letters, greeting. We have inspected the Letters Patent of Our dearest mother, Isabel, formerly Countess of Worcester, Lady La Despenser of Glamorgant and Morgant, made in these words...


...Our very dear brother Thomas Nevill, Sheriff of Glamorgant and Morgant, knight, and Our wellbeloved Edward Stradeling, knight; John Nanfan; David Mathew ; Thomas Colt; Thomas Porthallyn ; John Eyre, and others. Given in Our Castle of Kardiff, on the twelfth day of March in the twenty ninth year of the reign of King Henry the sixth after the Conquest [1451].

Seems that English nobles did use last names. One learns something every day

But

Ricardus Dux Gloucestrie Constabularius et Admirallus Anglie Dominus de Bergeuenny Glamorgan et Morgannuck et Anna uxor nostra

Richard, Duke of Gloucester, Constable and Admiral of England, Lord of Abergavenny, Glamorgan and Morgannuck, and Ann Our Wife

And

Edwardus dei gracia Rex Anglie & ffrancie & Dominus Hibernie

Edward, by the grace of God King of England and France, and Lord of Ireland


Apparently the greatest of lords did not use last names and lesser ones did

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

So you place Robhan ABOVE his other brothers? AND spell the ancient Khaiarén name wrong? In Haelyn's name brother...

I don't have "é" on my keyboard 

And of course Robhan is above his brothers, he's a priest, of Haelyn no less!!! You know, God->king->clergy->nobles

Its a hierarchichal society.

[X-DM Jon]

I would think the reason for the different naming traditions of Anuire is we're dealing with quite a different culture than the Saxon.

 Some strange mix of the thirteen jewish tribes and a seemingly roman people of sorts.

 The family names are most likely ancient and riddled with meaning of all sorts. Which is why they are as much a title as the comparable Saxon tradition.

 And don't forget the romans had family names as well. Titles were obviously enhancements of these, but your name was still of greater importance. At least in the Republican and early Imperial age.