Regarding Goblins

[DM B]

Cardinal-Prelate Kharnmoin speaks:

"Maester Kaleiman sees things like the scholar that he is. Which means he fails to distinguish the hand of god from what is unimportant. But be that as it may.

I would add, however, that this tale has many versions. Not just Kaleiman's. The WIT too knows that there were goblins in Cerilia long before man came here. And not surprisingly the warred with elves. Could it be any different?

And than men and sidhe both fought goblins is not in doubt. But did they fight as allies? Perhaps, perhaps not. Perhaps some did, but not all - the Deretha for one fought both sidhe and goblin at the same time.

But the goblins did finally break, thanks to the presence of man. And what happened next? Did man try to steal from the sidhe, or did he only take what was his, taken by force of arms from the goblins? Might it not be the sidhe that suddenly found that with the goblins crushed, they had little use for the newcomers?

I know there are many shades of truth, even in this tale. But I also know that if I listen to the voice of Haelyn I will find the truth. And so will you. And therefore I say to you; do not cast doubt on yourselves, do not look for errors in your own ways, do not hold yourself accountable for the wrongs visited by others."

[DM B]

Saender Khaiarén, third of the brothers (there are five, where Robhan is the youngest) rises to speak; he was invested as Blademaster (High Priests) of the HTC only last year, being one of the most experienced paladins in Anuire:

"I feel I must say my part as well.

I find that I loathe goblins, but that I understand them. They are just like men, only very wicked men who has never heard the word of God. A goblin can be understood in that it wants food in its belly, a roof and a fire, and a woman - preferably an ugly goblins woman that is - to share its bed. It desires gold and power, and dreams of one day rising in station or seeing his grandchildren do something great. Now, as I said they are wicked and ugly and dirty and many other bad things besides, but they are not beasts. They think and they hunger as do men - and they do have souls! Goblins CAN be redeemed if given the chance. In Thurazor there are thousands of goblins that pray to the Stormlord every day of strength and guidance..."

[X-Alamie (Alex)]

Lord Alam stands to speak:

"Alas, Blademaster, should Goblins be beast then their would be some glimpse of hope. However, those creatures appear, for the last thousand years, to have threaded willingly on a dark path.

I would like to know, whether you, Blademaster, would consider ordinating Goblin paladins of the Stormlord, and then, should the day come, ride with them into battle? Would you trust them with your life, or the life of those you have sworn to fight?"

Turning to the Patriarch of Elinie, he adds:

"Just as you, Your Grace, would you add some of those loathsome creatures into your household? Or would you be glad in keeping them as labourers scavenging the hills of late Markhazor in an attempt to feel your coffers with taxes, and a cheap as well as expandable, if unreliable, host?"

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

Quietly observing, Rashid focuses on Lord Alam when he is spoken to;

"If Elinie is to carry the torch of humanity and show our strength to the goblins, then I see no other path than letting the goblins aspire to certain positions of power.

Indeed, some tasks may be better performed by someone fervent in their desire for justice, even if it is inspired by cruelty.

I have listened with great interest to what has been said here. Cruel men fear the law just as much as, or more, than kind men. I am no stranger to law and I will apply sufficient force to crush any goblin thought of rebellion or raiding.

The flipside however, and there must be one, or we gain nothing, is that the goblins will be allowed to hold positions of power. Perhaps even over humans in some areas or cases.

In addition, the traditional goblin reason for raiding is food. I believe that alleviating this need can demotivate many goblins. In addition, they breed fast and their urge for violence must be controlled and focused. Raising a few units would seem to be a solution to controlling various hotheads by giving them the task of protecting our northern borders.

I will see what I can do, to protect humans from the harsh rules that must be instigated in Morcosoer. - First privilege of course, being that no human may be slain or maimed without verdict by a human authority."

[DM B]

The Blademaster replies to Alam:

"Paladins? Now that IS as silly a notion as I have ever heard. A paladin is a paragon of virtue. A priest somewhat more virtuous than most men - hopefully. And a worshiper...need not be all that virtuous. I merely stated that goblins are creatures with motivations much like our own, and that if given the opportunity they will follow the Stormlord and play at civilization. I never said they were the paragons of good."

[X-DM Jon]

Maester Kaleiman can barely contain his enthusiasm anymore, he erupts into a series of squawk-like noises?

"Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Most interesting!"

Then he storms down and takes the floor, a flurry of exitement over the academic turn the debate has taken.

"First I would like to answer the good Archprelate of the WIT.

 Young Kharnmoien, you are quite correct that the human endeavour is lost in the mists of time, sources to their movements and actions are few and scattered, and not very scholarly in their nature. That is something that came with the rise of the Empire when old men like myself got the time and opportunity to loaf about! Hohohoho!

 BUT! We do have access to elven sources of a written nature, and they are all brimming over with implications of a grand betrayal. Now this may VERY WELL be the planted work of the Keeper of Secrets, the Shadow incarnate, but Azrai rarely worked with what wasn't there to begin with. He was a comparatively lazy deity, always looking for secrets that he might use to make others do his bidding.

 Now take goblins, it is often forgotten that those we know today are the woeful remains of an empire capable of fighting both elves and dwarves. Thurazor is something of the remains of this, Markazor is not. Markazor is only recently come out from under the terrible shadow of the Gorgon. To think these goblins can be turned into useful citizens, is to invite disaster.

 It IS necessary to keep them in close check and pool Anuirean power there to do so. Don't forget that compared to all other fronts in our end of the world, the Gorgon's Crown is where the threat of invasion is still greatest. Simply because we DO NOT KNOW what the current situation there is!
 Any talk of controlling, changing or destroying goblins should take this into account.

Control or change can fail and leave enemies in our midst. Destruction will strengthen the enemies east of Markazor.
 We need the goblins of Markazor and we need them to heed their own interests, not those of the Gorgon or any other powers. Therefore a balance is necessary! Equal whip and carrot I say.

[X-Alamie (Alex)]

Lord Alam turns to Patriarch Rashid:

"Your Grace, I can only pray for your people and for Elinie, for I fear that tough times are awaiting your land and your subjects. Nevertheless, your heart must be made of steel for considering to arm our all-time foes and alleviating their hunger. I wonder how Anuirean will reacts to this, for in the end, it will be perceived as a tribute for peace.'

Turning to the Blademaster, he concludes:

"Your reply does honour your common sense, Blademaster. It seems that beaneath the mollifying words still lingers the old prejudices, which Alamie shares with you."

[X-Points East]

IC:

Elamien Lamier, who has been present at this forum, rises, during a general pause, and speaks:

"With all due respect to Maester Kaleiman, I do necessarily share his view that the Gorgon is the greatest threat to the security of northeastern Anuire."

She then sits down.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

Personally Maester Kaleiman I prefer the records of the Karamhul - they at least have never considered us enemies, nor are they as fanciful as the elves.  Dull, pedantic, and prone to digressions of lineage they may be but the records of the lore masters of Baruk-Azhik are noted for their clarity - even on matters one would expect them to shun.

The Karamhul records make clear that Anuireans fought mostly in the hills and plains when first they came - and that these were inhabited mostly by goblins.  Further they suggest that while first our ancestors fought beside Elves, as they pushed back the goblins the goblins were forced into the forests - and while through no intent of our ancestors thus drove the goblins to make war upon the elves.  Some records indicate that the elves termed this betrayal and made of it excuse to wage war upon us.

Personally I expect that the elves fought on no side but their own aside from brief alliances of convenience, put simply, elven warfare is a matter of strike swiftly and fade - and suits neither our ancestor's tactics nor those of the goblins.  The truth is however buried in politics for many on all sides wished to profit from war and distrust - and so where the good books are silent I judge from the deeds of recent centuries which are familiar to us all.

Early records from all sources are also most inconclusive regarding whether the goblins we know of were altered by the Shadow, some records tell of goblins using sorcery commonly - not something I have seen in those of past years.  Others talk of goblins where the descriptions make clear we would discuss orogs, gnolls or other beast-men, even the Vos appear to have been described as goblins in some early elven records!

What is unambiguous however is that the Shadow mustered goblins in vast numbers, and that whatever troops he whelmed he twisted and turned to suit his whim - whether in body, mind or spirit, church records state clearly that none that willingly followed the Shadow endured his touch unchanged.  The centuries since seem to make clear that goblins willingly flock to the banner of awnsheghlien and serve those of malign intent - so I remain of the view that his shadow lingers in them still.  I accept the rights of nobles to permit goblins to serve as subjects - but I will ever remain vigilant.

[X-Diemed/Carvaloen Diem (Sheldon)]

Diem speaks, (no one noticed him quietly slip in from the back)

"I would trust a goblin about as far as I could throw the lot of you... and for that matter I trust the lot of you about as far as I could toss a goblin!"

At this he smiles, hoping the others in the room picked up on his humor

"But in all seriousness, I agree with some of Maester Kaleimans conclusions though I don't share his enthusiasm in testing theories in this matter where human lives are concerned.  I will summarize a few caveats."

"Woe to the realm who leaves goblins fester to their own devices, and he who willingly exposes his back to a goblin is a fool.  On the flip-side of that coin of wisdom... Woe to he who would have every last goblin exterminated.  Goblins have been around since before us, and they have outlasted some of the most violent and tyrannical regimes our history has ever seen, they are survivors and they will outlast you.  Furthermore... What would you do if you knew that your neighbors were hellbent on slaughtering every last one of you?  Man, woman, and child?  Would you not fight with every ounce of courage?  No surrender, give daggers to every child old enough to walk, fight to the last man and woman, and more importantly hold a grudge from now to forever and strive to do the same in kind?  We can treat our barbaric brethren however we like but I dare say to let them know we wish to eradicate them in some form of final solution would just invite our own demise."

"As to Diemed's goblin problems... raiders are dealt with harshly.  Anyone who breaks the law is dealt with harshly, goblins perhaps harsher.  On the northern borders I've seen huts, maybe a small family.  A few goblins equipped with plowshares toiling in the fields, or selling trinkets in the markets, or even attending a service at Haelyn's Festival... and I honestly don't give them a second thought... but swords in little green hands are an entirely different matter than plowshares."

"I have heard talk here of how the one thing goblins understand is power and the selfish desire to obtain it.  That rings true.  Those few civilized goblins in the north I feel are drawn to the power of wealth and a better life when they see the lifestyles of the Diemen citizens in the towns and cities, and small fiefs.  However they seem to grow frustrated easily with work and toil.  Laws make men equal.  In a land of law men no longer gain power by physical strength but by intelligence and work ethic.  Goblins are inherently handicapped in this regard.  However they do understand the force of law when applied with ruthless efficiency.  It is this small factor that I think keeps those who have decided to eek out a better life in the south working and toiling in order to reap their rewards."

"As for you Patriarch, you have no enviable task in dealing with some 20,000 head of goblins you have seemed to annex.  Whatever you choose to do will either be a great success, or a great failure and only the historians of the future will tell.  Maybe the best advice any one can offer you is to scour the lands and hire the best diviner your treasury can afford.  You stand as an example to all of Anuire and I'm sure you will greatly impact how Anuire handles goblins in future policy... whether as an example of what to do, or what not to do is unfortunately yet to be determined."

He sits down, intending his closing statement to have some tongue in cheek humor... but notices the worried lines on the Patriarch's face all the same.

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

"In history all is reflected... That is true. But whoever writes the history is usually the victor. If my history is written unbiased, then I have gained victory indeed. Succes or failure."; Rashid remarks.