End of game questions

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

Wallac - what was the deal with that guy? Anything sinister or just plain crazy?

I'd say it was a matter of a completely impossible major agenda, which the player tried to achieve anyway. Unfortunately, the same personality that got him to try to finish the agenda, was also the one that got him into conflict with a lot of others. His sense of what was truly achievable didn't really synch with what the world was throwing in his face...

 I have a great deal of respect for him, he took my creation and kept it alive - if nothing else than through sheer force of annoyance. Everyone knew that the CoT was truly a dangerous organization if you left it in the hands of just anyone. It was too bad that Bjørn gave him that mission though, might as well have given him "major mission - lose the game whatever you do".

I could pretty much argue that all major agendas are impossible...

IHH's wasn't so bad IMO - with some diplomacy he could have held the office in return for major concessions to the other temples. Difficult, yes, but doable.

But I'll grant you - not doable for Kasper, because he lacked the diplomatic suave than would have been required to pull it off.

He also tried to pull it off within his 2 year stint instead of building up to it - if he'd gone for a "this is how the job should be done" 1st round, made sure that other temples were ho hum/failed, then when IHH's turn came around again they'd be more likely to get a longer period - assuming that he couldn't get elected at some point as a regent-Pontiff following some major foul-up by a successor, or get a "supporting role" made that he could maneuver into and use to maintain a measure authority.

Any attempt to win a major agenda in 8 seasons (well, 10 thanks to WIT) from nothing flat is doomed to failure in my view, they are more decades-long goals rooted in the heart of an organisation in my view.

[X-ETN/Maire Cwyllmie (Libor)]

He also tried to pull it off within his 2 year stint instead of building up to it - if he'd gone for a "this is how the job should be done" 1st round, made sure that other temples were ho hum/failed, then when IHH's turn came around again they'd be more likely to get a longer period - assuming that he couldn't get elected at some point as a regent-Pontiff following some major foul-up by a successor, or get a "supporting role" made that he could maneuver into and use to maintain a measure authority.

Any attempt to win a major agenda in 8 seasons (well, 10 thanks to WIT) from nothing flat is doomed to failure in my view, they are more decades-long goals rooted in the heart of an organisation in my view.

He wouldn't get the second chance within the scope of the game.

[X-Avanil/Aubrae Avan (Thorsten)]

He wouldn't get the second chance within the scope of the game.

You mean, the present charter wouldn't allow him to get a second chance within the scope of the game.

But charters can be changed, pontiffs can die, wars and all manner of unexpected events can happen. I don't see the agenda as impossible. Tough, yes, but not impossible. He could even ally himself with some secular power and have them instate him by force if need be. God knows there's plenty of inspiration to get from popes (and antipopes) throughout the ages.

[X-Mieres & SAS/AV (Mark)]

And it wasn't like he didn't have friends .

What's really eating me is whether I missed anything.  Like I left anything hanging that was about to come and bite me right in the arse.  (The Governor has some healthy and unhealthy paranoia)

[X-Points East]

OoC:

What happened to Karlaf (of House Nathal)?

[X-Avanil/Aubrae Avan (Thorsten)]

And it wasn't like he didn't have friends .

What's really eating me is whether I missed anything.  Like I left anything hanging that was about to come and bite me right in the arse.  (The Governor has some healthy and unhealthy paranoia)

Well Avanese troops where stationed in Mhistecai's realm, if that is what you are considering. Signed a treaty calling her to my aid in case Avanil got attacked by the shadows minions, and in return I would help her against local Governal aggression. I needed Mieres back under my yoke as part of my agenda after all. And if you went and started something, I could ferry in men in using that as are pretense. I also considered using the Diemean colonies as a staging ground if need be.

[DM B]

And it wasn't like he didn't have friends .

What's really eating me is whether I missed anything.  Like I left anything hanging that was about to come and bite me right in the arse.  (The Governor has some healthy and unhealthy paranoia)

Well Avanese troops where stationed in Mhistecai's realm, if that is what you are considering. Signed a treaty calling her to my aid in case Avanil got attacked by the shadows minions, and in return I would help her against local Governal aggression. I needed Mieres back under my yoke as part of my agenda after all. And if you went and started something, I could ferry in men in using that as are pretense. I also considered using the Diemean colonies as a staging ground if need be.

Plus what I mentioned in the Chat - when your expedition got back from Eustan there would soon be signs of...heresy.

[DM B]

OoC:

What happened to Karlaf (of House Nathal)?

He went East, looking for the place where the sun rises. Perhaps he found it, perhaps he did not.

[DM B]

Temple Major for the OIT:

Major agenda
* Reclaim the spiritual leadership of true Orthodoxy – it is time to show Anuire that the OIT is the real source of religious truth.
[The primary Orthodox temples of Anuire – HA, MOC, and ETN – must become vassals of the OIT. Partial completion if you manage only two of the three.]

Sounds like it would be mildly challenging? Getting three major PC temple to submitt to vassalage? Or a long-term goal requiring not only skill, but perhaps some of Sarimie's blessings?

[X-DM Jon]

Temple Major for the OIT:

Major agenda
* Reclaim the spiritual leadership of true Orthodoxy – it is time to show Anuire that the OIT is the real source of religious truth.
[The primary Orthodox temples of Anuire – HA, MOC, and ETN – must become vassals of the OIT. Partial completion if you manage only two of the three.]

Sounds like it would be mildly challenging? Getting three major PC temple to submitt to vassalage? Or a long-term goal requiring not only skill, but perhaps some of Sarimie's blessings?

That was the same in RoE 1... Considering that the others had "independence" as their major agendas, it was basically impossible. I have no idea how the NPC Cardinal Briesen managed to pull it off, but it wasn't exactly something I took as a serious agenda to follow. The CoT was the closest I ever got to solving it. (And it drove me crazy along the way  )

 I think that the major temple agendas, at least for the biggies, were too much. If you wanted to compete with the other players on who could rack up the most points, forget about the major agendas. I knew the agendas of all the domains and I can say that they weren't as unbalanced as the Haelynic majors. The comparison would be demanding Avanil to become emperor, Mhoried to defeat the Gorgon once and for all, etc.
 For another round of RoE, I would suggest either turning down temple demands or increasing landed demands.

Or include a third category of agenda - the great agenda - which would always be something like "become Pontiff of all Anuire" or "Emperor". Etc.

[X-DM Jon]

He wouldn't get the second chance within the scope of the game.

You mean, the present charter wouldn't allow him to get a second chance within the scope of the game.

But charters can be changed, pontiffs can die, wars and all manner of unexpected events can happen. I don't see the agenda as impossible. Tough, yes, but not impossible. He could even ally himself with some secular power and have them instate him by force if need be. God knows there's plenty of inspiration to get from popes (and antipopes) throughout the ages.

And no historical examples of religious splits, once entrenched, of being restored outside of near complete destruction like what happened with the Cathars. Which is why Christianity in Europe f.ex. has mostly turned into a national matter.


 The "keep the Pontifficate" agenda was completely impossible and what's worse, it didn't even fit within the scope of the game. No wonder Kasper went crazy and gave up along the way... I spoke to him a lot, trying to help and I can say that the pressure definitely got to him. He basically had the agenda "make every temple domain player do as you say", so it spread beyond holdings, RP and GB's and became a uniquely diplomatic agenda - one where he had to beat or convince all of you OoC as well as IC.

 Compare the PeTG agenda, or any of the landed agendas. A lot of them had clearly defined (draconian) goals.

 He should just have done the same as me, ignore the (much easier OIT RoE 1) agenda and approach it sideways, hoping to catch Bjørn off guard with some crazy idea like I did with the CoT.

[X-DM Jon]

Wallac - what was the deal with that guy? Anything sinister or just plain crazy?

I'd say it was a matter of a completely impossible major agenda, which the player tried to achieve anyway. Unfortunately, the same personality that got him to try to finish the agenda, was also the one that got him into conflict with a lot of others. His sense of what was truly achievable didn't really synch with what the world was throwing in his face...

 I have a great deal of respect for him, he took my creation and kept it alive - if nothing else than through sheer force of annoyance. Everyone knew that the CoT was truly a dangerous organization if you left it in the hands of just anyone. It was too bad that Bjørn gave him that mission though, might as well have given him "major mission - lose the game whatever you do".

I could pretty much argue that all major agendas are impossible...

IHH's wasn't so bad IMO - with some diplomacy he could have held the office in return for major concessions to the other temples. Difficult, yes, but doable.

But I'll grant you - not doable for Kasper, because he lacked the diplomatic suave than would have been required to pull it off.

Completely agree on Kasper   he approached it head-on where he should have considered the many ways of interpreting it or for that matter reinterpreting it using a change agenda action.

But I still think that the Haelynic temple agendas should have been more focused, but perhaps that can be solved by introducing a "great agenda".

[X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)]

Bjorn - What was the deal with the Wraith-Sorceror under Ilien, who claimed to be me? Or at least to have the same name as me and a sword that was identical to mine?

Oh, and what would have happened to me if I hadn't ditched the Eye when I did?  Conversely, would there have been direct consequences BECAUSE I ditched the Eye?

[X-Avanil/Aubrae Avan (Thorsten)]

And no historical examples of religious splits, once entrenched, of being restored outside of near complete destruction like what happened with the Cathars. Which is why Christianity in Europe f.ex. has mostly turned into a national matter.


 The "keep the Pontifficate" agenda was completely impossible and what's worse, it didn't even fit within the scope of the game. No wonder Kasper went crazy and gave up along the way... I spoke to him a lot, trying to help and I can say that the pressure definitely got to him. He basically had the agenda "make every temple domain player do as you say", so it spread beyond holdings, RP and GB's and became a uniquely diplomatic agenda - one where he had to beat or convince all of you OoC as well as IC.

 Compare the PeTG agenda, or any of the landed agendas. A lot of them had clearly defined (draconian) goals.

 He should just have done the same as me, ignore the (much easier OIT RoE 1) agenda and approach it sideways, hoping to catch Bjørn off guard with some crazy idea like I did with the CoT.

Religious splits being restored would be akin to the Haelynite temples uniting under one temple again. That's a religious splitting. And I agree that that happening would be next to impossible. But it's not at all the same as retaining the "papacy" indefinitely. And there are several examples of popes being deposed, exiled, killed, as well as other popes being elected, supported or even installed by secular powers. He also had quite a few things going for him - being the only one (so far and as known to the public) able to detect dopplegangers, owning huge parts of Ilien following the war and having quite a large chunk of the CoT warchest safely stored away for personal use.

The agenda was not impossible. No more than the Avenese agenda to regain three out of five lost vassals was. In fact I would probably have enjoyed aiming for the CoT agenda more than the Avanese version as it revolved a lot around political maneuvering and my own had me facing five realms terrified that I should try to do, what my agenda wanted me to do, which meant I would likely have to use force in one form or another to make it happen. Heck I was working towards the throne (very very slowly) and I thought that an easier goal than my agenda. If one of Aubrae's sons became Emperor, at least I'd accomplish my agenda by proxy.

That Wallac managed to alienate most people by ordering where he should have been asking and frothing at the mouth when confronted by his borderline tyranny made the agenda harder. But even that didn't make the agenda impossible. Convincing us OOC should not matter at all. It's all about the IC. And IC he did not put forth very convincing arguments.

It's a shame that the agenda got to Kasper. I think, and I have many a time, that Kasper would have been a lot happier in a landed realm where his playing style would fit better in, and diplomacy wasn't alpha and omega but just one of many available tools. But things went as things went and the outcome can't be changed.

And with regards to pontificate, let me have a crack at it next time, and we'll see what I can get away with

[DM B]

Or include a third category of agenda - the great agenda - which would always be something like "become Pontiff of all Anuire" or "Emperor". Etc.

A third category - that IS something to ponder.

At any rate; full completion of major agenda is not supposed to be doable in the span of 1 chapter. That's how difficult they were slated to be. Partial yes, full no. But obviously there were variances in actual in-play difficulty.

If we look at the PETG for example that Major agenda turned out to be quite easy. For several reasons. Firstly it may not have been as inherently difficult as say the IHH or OIT agenda. Secondly the PETG were at the edge of existence...surrounded by terra incognita and relatively passive NPCs...and what few player guilds there were (HOT, I'm looking at you in particular)  didn't purse their PETG-conflicting agendas.

That said things could have gone much differently; making effectively many or even all of PETGs agendas impossible to achieve.