Author Topic: Regent Freedom - Dictatorship or Pluralism  (Read 1384 times)

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Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

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Regent Freedom - Dictatorship or Pluralism
« on: August 14, 2009, 01:14:52 pm »
Hello!

We all know, that proper form calls for diplomacy, to ratify any agreement detailing the duties of one domain to another. Internally, the officials need to be informed and many will voice their opinion and try to influence the result one way or another.

On the other hand, Regents are free to take any amount of gold and just vanish it. - Gold is best for this example, as its much harder to vanish, say, a Manor.

Ok, those are the statements the next is builds on:

Regent1 is drinking buddy with Regent2, and over a wager R1 loses 10GB to the other.
- Regent1 goes home and makes a Grant action of 10GB to Regent2, this costs 1GB in setting up the Grant, as there is no diplomatic deal facilitating money transfers.

If Regent1 and Regent2 had any arrangement that was diplomatically set up in advance, such as an alliance or vassalage or ongoing monetary transfers from one to the other, even a loan. - Then the 1GB Grant surcharge would vanish and the money could be transferred for free. (Still requiring a Grant Action though, just no cost).

Later, Regent1 sobers up and comes to Regent2 and says he wants his money back... Regent2 can say sure, and make a Grant back again, either paying 1GB for setup costs, or using the established channels, if any, to make it costless.

Regent2 can also choose to say no. In which case Regent1 can fume all he wants, his domain has no legal claim on Regent2 as there were no diplomatic arrangement regarding any return payments.

What I am trying to illustrate, is that there are plenty of ways for one regent to aid another, without prior diplomatic arrangements.

If such aid is meant as a loan, it should be noted that this is purely on the honor of the recipient as there is no official documents stipulating the domain has to pay it back.

Now, please critique my understanding. If I am wrong, I'd like to be shown where.  ;D
Formerly: His Grace, Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta, Last Imperial Duke of the Eastern Marches, Duke of Elinie, Master of Sutren Hills, Holy Paladin of Avanalae, Light of Reason.

Offline X-Osoerde (Alan)

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Re: Regent Freedom - Dictatorship or Pluralism
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2009, 03:31:16 pm »
RoE is about Domains not Regents.

Yes, wyrmling, the meat is made all the more tender by armor...

Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

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Re: Regent Freedom - Dictatorship or Pluralism
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2009, 03:38:43 pm »
You did not dispute one way or the other, that the regents can do this, if they so please.

And I'm not sure I just want to agree to your statement either. After all, each of us have our Regent name right next to our Domain name here on the forum, and the avatars are of the Regent, not the Domain flag.

In addition, most of the motivations to hate others, are driven first and foremost by individuals. If each Domain was truly just a gathering of people working for the Domain FIRST and the Regent SECOND or not at all, then Anuire would be VERY different.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 03:43:50 pm by Elinie/RiD (Niels) »
Formerly: His Grace, Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta, Last Imperial Duke of the Eastern Marches, Duke of Elinie, Master of Sutren Hills, Holy Paladin of Avanalae, Light of Reason.

Offline X-Osoerde (Alan)

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Re: Regent Freedom - Dictatorship or Pluralism
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2009, 03:53:51 pm »
Domain and regent are not exactly interchangeable. If you regent dies, your domain will continue. If he is captured, incapacitated, or whatever else may happen, your domain will be continue.  This is even true in the case of wizards, who are argueably the most regent-based domain. 

To clarify, a regent can surely aid another regent -- character actions directly represent this.

When it becomes domain level though (court actions, 90% of regent actions, etc).  It is not the regent aiding a regent, but rather a domain aiding a domain.

The latter may neccessitate diplomacy.

The problem is that the regent is very concrete, easy to personify, but the domain is very abstract.  We players always can delve into the personality of a character, but doing so for a domain is considerably different.  It isn't to say that the domain will work contrary to the desire of the regent, but rather that just cause your regent says so does mean that the domain will be happy about it in the slightest.
Yes, wyrmling, the meat is made all the more tender by armor...

Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: Regent Freedom - Dictatorship or Pluralism
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2009, 05:20:27 pm »
Hmm, I think that if Robhan pulled a stunt like that he'd be lynched by his troopers - stealing 10 GB from the treasury!  Start talking fast, even if Robhan thought that the domain was his piggy bank, I'm sure that his colleagues would disagree!

If GB were just piles of gold, then I'd see no problem with 'free' transfers - as long as bandit activity is low.  If however they represent the output expected from a series of assets, losing an action and a GB to transfer the property rights, convince sheriff A to do 'x' instead of 'y', etc seems reasonable.

Under this approach, a pre-existing deal with the other regent includes routes to funnel funds, rights, etc as part of the deal, people expect to'ing and fro'ing between the two regents and as a result it is far easier to redirect value efficiently between the domains.
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Offline DM B

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Re: Regent Freedom - Dictatorship or Pluralism
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2009, 05:44:09 pm »
1Gb is not X thousand coins...it is commodities, political influence, whatever makes the world go round.
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Offline X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)

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Re: Regent Freedom - Dictatorship or Pluralism
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2009, 05:48:30 pm »
If Regent1 and Regent2 had any arrangement that was diplomatically set up in advance, such as an alliance or vassalage or ongoing monetary transfers from one to the other, even a loan. - Then the 1GB Grant surcharge would vanish and the money could be transferred for free. (Still requiring a Grant Action though, just no cost).

Incorrect, actually.  The Grant would be free only if there was a prior Diplomacy that had arranged THAT SPECIFIC Grant - ie., if the regents' drinking session was in fact classed as a character-action Diplomacy (Edit - I meant to say, as I understand the rules.  I can't actually definitely state this.)  Which is plausible, but now you've gotten a free Court action at the cost of a Regent action.  The reason Grant actions are often free is because all the details and requirements were handled as part of the Diplomacy - transferring 10GB is a lot bigger deal than throwing someone a wad of money.  At the very least, even if it's purely 'liquid' funds from a treasury, you have to arrange a massive armed convoy or complicated "letters of withdrawal" or some such, unless you LIKE having your money finance an entire bandit league halfway between domains.  So simply having some unconnected Diplomatic agreement wouldn't give you to ability to swap money back and forth like this.

This is just a technical quibble, but important nonetheless.

On a less technical level, this is theoretically possible.  However, it'd likely result in some internal domain issues.  I'm assisting the ETN without prior Diplomacy, just some Dispatch-level discussion.  I anticipate having to do some soothing on my domain as a result - they'll be touchy about me sending troops away at a time like this.  With proper Diplomacy, that'd be less of an issue.  Remember, also, that you can class Diplomacy as character-level.  In that case, it really is your regent working things out with another one on a solely face-to-face level.  It soothes the Domain less than regent-level Diplomacy, but it might be easier to pull a difficult Diplomacy off if you're having issues swinging influential people within your domain to support you.  You get the agreement, but you piss people off - it's a tradeoff.

In this case - sure, the Regent has control over his own treasury.  If he starts handing out something on the order of 20K gold pieces on a drunken bet (enough to keep thousands of his subjects in what they'd perceive as luxury for a year), you can bet there'll be consequences.  He might take a stability penalty as the lesser nobility that run his court begin embezzling their own funds for their own hookers and drunken bets.  A priest might face a challenge from a one of his cardinals on the basis that he's lost his faith and righteousness, or have his guilders revolt at the realization of what he's doing with the results of their hard work.  That sort of thing.

In other words, between friendly domains, you can skip Diplomacy for certain kinds of actions, sure.  You will probably pay a price for it, if not on the first time then certainly on the second.  But sometimes it's worth it to save the action.  Your call.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 05:52:05 pm by Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby) »

Offline X-Points East

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Re: Regent Freedom - Dictatorship or Pluralism
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2009, 07:24:06 pm »

Hello!

We all know, that proper form calls for diplomacy, to ratify any agreement detailing the duties of one domain to another. Internally, the officials need to be informed and many will voice their opinion and try to influence the result one way or another.

On the other hand, Regents are free to take any amount of gold and just vanish it. - Gold is best for this example, as its much harder to vanish, say, a Manor.

Ok, those are the statements the next is builds on:

Regent1 is drinking buddy with Regent2, and over a wager R1 loses 10GB to the other.
- Regent1 goes home and makes a Grant action of 10GB to Regent2, this costs 1GB in setting up the Grant, as there is no diplomatic deal facilitating money transfers.

If Regent1 and Regent2 had any arrangement that was diplomatically set up in advance, such as an alliance or vassalage or ongoing monetary transfers from one to the other, even a loan. - Then the 1GB Grant surcharge would vanish and the money could be transferred for free. (Still requiring a Grant Action though, just no cost).

Later, Regent1 sobers up and comes to Regent2 and says he wants his money back... Regent2 can say sure, and make a Grant back again, either paying 1GB for setup costs, or using the established channels, if any, to make it costless.

Regent2 can also choose to say no. In which case Regent1 can fume all he wants, his domain has no legal claim on Regent2 as there were no diplomatic arrangement regarding any return payments.

What I am trying to illustrate, is that there are plenty of ways for one regent to aid another, without prior diplomatic arrangements.

If such aid is meant as a loan, it should be noted that this is purely on the honor of the recipient as there is no official documents stipulating the domain has to pay it back.

Now, please critique my understanding. If I am wrong, I'd like to be shown where.  ;D

OoC:

Re: Wedding gifts

« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 09:40:11 am by X-Points East »

Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

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Re: Regent Freedom - Dictatorship or Pluralism
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2009, 08:02:47 pm »
Ah, cool Brandon, states right there that Grant actions are costless, always!

This is not reflected in the current Regent Guide though. - But it does save me atleast 1GB this turn.

As for the domain getting miffed by the squandering of money, I can understand that. And in severe cases events and even stability loss may ensue I bet.

But as I understand you all, the money/gift/uncolatteralled loan would be transferred. The fallout would be after?
Formerly: His Grace, Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta, Last Imperial Duke of the Eastern Marches, Duke of Elinie, Master of Sutren Hills, Holy Paladin of Avanalae, Light of Reason.

Offline X-DM Jon

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Re: Regent Freedom - Dictatorship or Pluralism
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2009, 08:15:13 pm »
Ah, cool Brandon, states right there that Grant actions are costless, always!

This is not reflected in the current Regent Guide though. - But it does save me atleast 1GB this turn.

As for the domain getting miffed by the squandering of money, I can understand that. And in severe cases events and even stability loss may ensue I bet.

But as I understand you all, the money/gift/uncolatteralled loan would be transferred. The fallout would be after?

 There is a DDC for a grant action, it's usually a succes, however it might fail and the money not be transferred. Either way, fallout would be after.

Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: Regent Freedom - Dictatorship or Pluralism
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2009, 07:06:25 pm »

But as I understand you all, the money/gift/uncolatteralled loan would be transferred. The fallout would be after?

I'm guessing it depends on size, a few GB should be easy enough to arrange to transfer that its a done deal by the time anyone can complain, try to move a substantial chunk of the treasury on the other hand and it would take days, if not weeks to arrange - giving people plenty of time to bitch.
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