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Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: New structures
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2009, 10:06:03 pm »
The DC represents if you just were to do some 'cold calling', if you will, for a hireling/henchmen.  In most cases though, these characters are acquired primarily through diplomacy, adventure, espionage, etc actions.

Part of the idea of the academy was to make it a more drawn out process, discrete actions are better than the rolling sum, but without a solid idea of the end result (+10? +20?) it is hard to see why you would commit significant resources up front.  That said 'take 20' to recruit a new leader is probably the norm cutting the cost a lot.

Additionally, there is nothing that says that an heir is a part of your able-assistance.

I'd expect a new leader 'out of the blue' to be very rare - if the Aegis has a 2nd priest able to cast realm spells with a reasonable bloodline then that NPC should demand an active role in running the church - not just wait on the sidelines and hope to leap into the top post.  Similarly for Robhan to ignore so talented an individual (for fear of losing his position?) would be gross dereliction of duty - whether friend, rival, or enemy one keeps such people close and makes use of their talents - to keep them busy and focused outwards if nothing else.
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Offline X-Osoerde (Alan)

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Re: New structures
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2009, 03:46:43 am »
As far as I know, Rhobhan was never a LT or able-assistance as far as I know. 

Royce was only BARELY a henchmen when he became the High Prefect of the IHH.

The OIT probably rarely if ever has a regent that is part of able-assistance (because their heirs are chosen by Land's choice).

Ilien's regent was never Able-assistance to the count.

I don't think it is such a strange situation.


I think all of you are missing the point, when I was the IHH, I acquired Martin Royce, by sending a dispatch to the NIT (a reformist church) if he had an idea of someone who could act in the capacity of Able-assistance.

Just prior, Talinie had just gone through a civil war between the Queen of Talinie and House Royce (her major vassal).  The Hierarch of the NIT had been captured (and imprisoned) briefly (for support the Queen) and though Martin has remained loyal, the Hierarch felt that the current situation had made his ability to be effective for the NIT impossible.    I had been involved in a series of adventure actions in the area (all-around the Archduke Theron Boer, who was murdered by his vassals and later Brandon Boer and aiding them against another lost Boer, who is a Belinite).

Basically, through a storyline, Martin Royce, a cleric with access to realm magic, was acquired as a cohort (with special conditions).  I used a grant promotion action (henchmen) which was routine, to elevate him within the IHH (remember what is acceptable to a character may not be so for the domain -- and most actions are about bringing the domain along).  And lastly, diplomacy to get him recognized as my heir (that was a pain).

As far as I am concerned, if you are having difficulty seeing how to accomplish something through adding and subtracting modifiers, I think you should look for another way.

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Offline X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)

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Re: New structures
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2009, 05:53:22 am »
Good to know, but keep in mind that some of us are new players. None of us knew that, nor do we have access to information about situations like that.

The thing is, RoE II is part roleplaying game, part strategy game, so people like to know the odds of the methods they choose to accomplish their goals. The only thing we really have to look at is the hire help action in this regard. It's hard to compare the odds of something where we have no idea of the underlying mechanism (eg. how adventure and research actions affect getting a npc into your retinue).
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Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: New structures
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2009, 09:21:53 pm »
I'm with Alexander on the newbie point - with the extra point that getting a third party to run the domain from out of the blue via adventure is not something that most domains would expect surely?  The 'normal' promotion to head honcho would surely be close to a 'buggins turn' approach.

Think of the election of the latest pope - not a single muslim / atheist / bhuddist in the mix, for that matter no protestant christians / greek orthodox, etc - in fact not merely was the running restricted to only senior roman catholic clergy, but only a tiny minority of the cardinals were even in the running with one given almost a clear run for the post...

I would certainly support making a potential heir gained via an adventure have something 'extra' - the domain took a significant risk in the adventure and so if its member (the PC) survives it should see a bigger reward - but the current set up seems to assume that replacement PCs pop up out of thin air.

My concern from a domain perspective is 'which of us will succeed him in 10-20 years' - as a player I know that the view is irrelevant generally due to metagame issues but from a RP perspective it would be a driving concern that there was no suitable heir in the domain.

A realm, law or guild holding has far less trouble getting an heir of course, and wizard realms are different in that the wizard basically is the domain, but for priest domains the spells, true, ritual, realm magic, bloodline +25 combo (minimum) is a killer on top of the +5/10 for elite/heroic character and +5 or so minimum for level.  If the regent can't cast domain spells, then the domain is going to have some very angry regents demanding their bless land spells in short order!

A lot depends on how lethal adventures are - so far the examples make them sound extremely dangerous with missing body parts the norm, as a result they sound like a desperation measure, not a standard growth mechanism.
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Offline X-Osoerde (Alan)

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Re: New structures
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2009, 03:42:49 am »
Adventuring was the way in which to acquire the NPC.  Diplomacy was to get the domain to accept it.  Diplomacy is VERY common when it comes to issues around heirs.


I just think that you are looking for a hard-and-fast rule when their isn't one, and frankly, the rule would be extremely limited. 

If you want an heir, train them.  Find a level 1 cleric, or even a child, and use training actions to mold them (find such should be a very easy task) -- at least this way you don't have to worry about realm magic etc, they will acquire it as they level.

OR -- start with a unblooded character; they can at least be taught the basics of realm magic and once they have a bloodline finish learning it (the wonders of unspent feats).

OR -- poach a cleric from another domain.

I just don't see an issue with the rule per se, I just think a little creativity and poetic license is needed.

PS. I hijacked this thread so we should move it to another.
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Offline DM B

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Re: New structures
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2009, 10:13:39 am »
Listen to wise Alan!

I'll look over the able assistance DCs, haven't spent too much time balancing them, but the main point is that a really good 6th+ lvl heroic wizard should represent a MAJOR effort to gain the services of. Now, getting a good (3rd lvl) unblooded administrator (expert) should be fairly simple for any decent court (i.e. you should be able to take 10).

To dos: Look over exiting structure, maybe add a few more (maybe I should get help with this one - volunteers?) and check DDC for hire help.
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Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: New structures
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2009, 10:53:45 pm »
Listen to wise Alan!

I have it on good authority that doing so can be distinctly hazardous to your realm and one should always look for at least 2 levels of subterfuge...

I'll look over the able assistance DCs, haven't spent too much time balancing them, but the main point is that a really good 6th+ lvl heroic wizard should represent a MAJOR effort to gain the services of. Now, getting a good (3rd lvl) unblooded administrator (expert) should be fairly simple for any decent court (i.e. you should be able to take 10).

Oh I agree it should be difficult - but at present the rules encourage you to steal an heir from another domain if one is needed, but otherwise smack down any potential heirs (to prevent dissent) and certainly avoid encouraging them to grow as they will simply be stolen.  I'd expect the rules to encourage growth (people of ambition go either up or out and the wise manager ensures that the good ones go up - at the appropriate speed...) but make stealing fairly difficult - merchants may swap easily, but would Boeruine expect to steal an heir from Avanil?  Should the Aegis recruit an heir from the local temple of Azrai just up the road - realm & temple domains in particular have very distinct cultures that discourage much switching.

To dos: Look over exiting structure, maybe add a few more (maybe I should get help with this one - volunteers?) and check DDC for hire help.

Happy to help with structures, although being new to RoE may not be a good choice as I'm still learning the mechanics, the hire help action, as I note in the other thread is mixing two very different things as far as I can see which causes much of the problem.

I note that Alan's work around (hire a moderate level character who hasn't 'spent' their feats and then just spend them to get realm magic) while presumably effective is avoiding the issue at best if they can just spend the feats as soon as they join...
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Offline DM B

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Re: New structures
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2009, 11:02:40 pm »
The revised Realm Magic chapter + the revised Characters and Domains chapter will hopefully help a bit. We have already briefly looked at the simplified rules for AAs and skill levels; expect more along those line, also regarding magic. And that has to tie in with the AA rules and the actions that hire/promote them etc.

Some design choices:

AAs (and by extension regents) belong in a level category (low, medium etc) - actual level is just fluff. Call him 3rd lvl or 1st level; for the purposes of the RoE game he is LOW level (if you played table-top and took him adventuring, then his real leave could be interesting to flesh out, but that is beyond the scope of THIS game).

He also has one or more classes; fighter, rogue, noble, wizard etc. Actual numebr of levels in a class will not matter (once again, fleshing out a cherished NPC is still allowed, but not required and won't impact his abilities on the domain level).

They can still be Professional/Elite/Heroic. Most AAs will be Professional (and won't have any PC classes; lost of experts I would imagine), but key NPC can be Elite, or even Heroic.

So now your Steward can be a Professional Mid-level Aristocrat/Expert

More late...probably have to split this into a separate topic as well.
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Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: New structures
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2009, 02:46:04 pm »
Ok, thinking more about chapel of the saint.  The standard is fine as a 'generic' chapel, but lacks any personification for the saint.  I figured that increasing the cost and adding a mainly fluff power would make sense.

Cost: Increase to 20 GB.  No maint increase.  DDC 12.
Requirements: Chapel's gotta have soul.  You need to tie the Saint to the effect and your church with a cool description.
Benefits: As normal chapel but 1 of:

Academy.  Bonus to one training action per season within the province. (I don't know how the normal action works, but this sounds thematic - a centre for contemplation / a famed training ground, etc).

Centre of order.  The monks/clergy are famously frugal and orderly, and the structure can try and administrate the selected type of maintenance (chosen via initial fluff) once per season. (basically the clergy act as an AA for the purposes of ply trade:administrate once per season).

Diplomacy.  +2 bonus to one diplomacy action in the province per season.  (weaker than small palace, but no increase in maint)

Inspired.  +2 to hire help once per season for someone with similar skills/whatever as the patron (i.e. a patron of arts inspires artists).

Magnificent.  Once per year +4 to a local agitate action not +2 (must be same season as bless cast).   (This one might be too good, although it is 1/year only)

War I.  Allied units in the province are inspired to gain +1 defense. Up to 1 unit per temple holding level can benefit.

War II. Allied units in the province are inspired to gain +1 offense. Up to 1 unit per temple holding level can benefit.

War III.  One garrisoned unit can be trained in the province per season as a free action.  (Is it too good with a garrisoned unit?  The cost saving isn't much for units that benefit from training i.e. unskilled ones).

War IV.  One unit can be mustered in the province per season as a free action (i.e. as if the domain was at war).

Watchful.  +2 to espionage actions within the same/neighbouring province once per season.

Are these overpowered?  The idea is mostly just to add some coolness to the chapel's and distinguish between them...
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Offline X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)

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Re: New structures
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2009, 04:00:38 pm »
They sound good in general, but some seem more powerfull than others and I lack some options.
Taking an example: The RCS is building a chapel dedicated to Egris Enlien (the one who got killed by his brother).

I see him as a diplomatic/peacefull person. Choosing Diplomacy, the chapel would give bonuses also to actions that might work in non-peaceful ways. Not excactly in the spirit of the saint.

The War-actions seems a bit overpowered (speaking as one currently fighting against enough bonuses in the forms of hills, defensive positions and npc-wizards who use me as test-subject.)

How about:
Trade: gives a minor income bonus (not like bless, but perhaps a small percentage of the overall income)

Peace: decreased chance of rebellion/unrest or in general just making the populace less inclined to violence.

and remove some of the war-stuff, or degrade it somewhat... the training one seems cool.

Offline X-DM Jon

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Re: New structures
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2009, 06:00:57 pm »
I like the general gist of your thinking.


 However, all structures have certain conceptual limits:
- All abilities are permanent, no yearly abilities. The only semi-exception to this rule is the halls of learning that allows 1 admin re-roll each turn.
- No magical abilites in structures. Offense and defense can't be influenced by other means than magic, morale can.


Ok, thinking more about chapel of the saint.  The standard is fine as a 'generic' chapel, but lacks any personification for the saint.  I figured that increasing the cost and adding a mainly fluff power would make sense.

Cost: Increase to 20 GB.  No maint increase.  DDC 12.
Requirements: Chapel's gotta have soul.  You need to tie the Saint to the effect and your church with a cool description.
Benefits: As normal chapel but 1 of:

Academy.  Bonus to one training action per season within the province. (I don't know how the normal action works, but this sounds thematic - a centre for contemplation / a famed training ground, etc).

 This shouldn't be a chapel at all, but an academy with the same cost and equal abilites as the halls of learning.

F.ex. It could give a +4 bonus to training actions and knowledge: Military. In addition it could supply a training action to all aa's training at the academy. The aa's may not do adventure or travel the turn they're training at the academy (unless it is in order to travel to the academy). And the action still goes against their character action limit - however this structure conceptually allows aa's to train twice each turn.


Centre of order.  The monks/clergy are famously frugal and orderly, and the structure can try and administrate the selected type of maintenance (chosen via initial fluff) once per season. (basically the clergy act as an AA for the purposes of ply trade:administrate once per season).

 Conceptually possible. But to have a structure do what aa's normally do, seems somehow wrong to me. Why not just build six of them and spare your domain the trouble of admins permanently? No, I think this should stay with the aa's.

Diplomacy.  +2 bonus to one diplomacy action in the province per season.  (weaker than small palace, but no increase in maint)

 I can see why a good looking palace would gain you a bonus to diplomacy, but why should a shrine? Remember, no magic.

Inspired.  +2 to hire help once per season for someone with similar skills/whatever as the patron (i.e. a patron of arts inspires artists).

 I like it. Though it's probably more appropriate to have it cost the same as a standard shrine.

Magnificent.  Once per year +4 to a local agitate action not +2 (must be same season as bless cast).   (This one might be too good, although it is 1/year only)

 No annual bonuses.

War I.  Allied units in the province are inspired to gain +1 defense. Up to 1 unit per temple holding level can benefit.

 Boosting defense is a magical effect. +1 to morale perhaps possible - IF the army first goes and bow their heads at the shrine, seeking the blessings of the saint. Or something like that.

War II. Allied units in the province are inspired to gain +1 offense. Up to 1 unit per temple holding level can benefit.

See above.

War III.  One garrisoned unit can be trained in the province per season as a free action.  (Is it too good with a garrisoned unit?  The cost saving isn't much for units that benefit from training i.e. unskilled ones).

 Again, no magical effects. This sounds more like a military camp of some sort, i.e. not a shrine.

War IV.  One unit can be mustered in the province per season as a free action (i.e. as if the domain was at war).

 Sounds good, the warrior saint inspires people to train more etc.

Watchful.  +2 to espionage actions within the same/neighbouring province once per season.

Don't know about this one, it's interesting though. The effect should probably only work within one province. And maybe reduce the cost to a standard shrine. But what would cause the effect?

Are these overpowered?  The idea is mostly just to add some coolness to the chapel's and distinguish between them...

Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: New structures
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2009, 07:48:09 pm »
Andy quoth:
Ok, thinking more about chapel of the saint.  The standard is fine as a 'generic' chapel, but lacks any personification for the saint.  I figured that increasing the cost and adding a mainly fluff power would make sense.

Cost: Increase to 20 GB.  No maint increase.  DDC 12.
Requirements: Chapel's gotta have soul.  You need to tie the Saint to the effect and your church with a cool description.
Benefits: As normal chapel but 1 of:

Academy.  Bonus to one training action per season within the province. (I don't know how the normal action works, but this sounds thematic - a centre for contemplation / a famed training ground, etc).

DM Jon
This shouldn't be a chapel at all, but an academy with the same cost and equal abilites as the halls of learning.

F.ex. It could give a +4 bonus to training actions and knowledge: Military. In addition it could supply a training action to all aa's training at the academy. The aa's may not do adventure or travel the turn they're training at the academy (unless it is in order to travel to the academy). And the action still goes against their character action limit - however this structure conceptually allows aa's to train twice each turn.


Andy
Hall of learning seemed OTT for the idea I was aiming at - Maybe just +1 or 2 to the train action?  Or one AA only per season as their action?  The idea was that some saints would be noted for their wisdom and experience.

Centre of order.  The monks/clergy are famously frugal and orderly, and the structure can try and administrate the selected type of maintenance (chosen via initial fluff) once per season. (basically the clergy act as an AA for the purposes of ply trade:administrate once per season).

DM Jon
Conceptually possible. But to have a structure do what aa's normally do, seems somehow wrong to me. Why not just build six of them and spare your domain the trouble of admins permanently? No, I think this should stay with the aa's.

Andy
hmm, I'd struggle to find 6 saints to cover the areas in any particular temple, the idea was to reflect a legendary saint noted in one of the relevant areas - their chapel then acts as a centre for like minded people.  In practice an AA attempting to administrate and the structure should be identical unless you have a special aa.  Thinking about it administration isn't very heroic - I'd figured this one would be for temples of avani/sera as it didn't fit the martial faiths, but maybe it doesn't work thematically for them either...

Diplomacy.  +2 bonus to one diplomacy action in the province per season.  (weaker than small palace, but no increase in maint)

DM Jon
I can see why a good looking palace would gain you a bonus to diplomacy, but why should a shrine? Remember, no magic.

Andy
Some saints are militant, some are diplomatic - so a shrine to a saint of Nesirie might be dedicated to a peace maker, a shrine to Haelyn recognise a great lawmaker, the idea was that the staff attracted to the shrine, the library, etc within, have a body of knowledge, follow certain interests and teachings, etc which is then reflected by a bonus in the specific diplomatic area.

Inspired.  +2 to hire help once per season for someone with similar skills/whatever as the patron (i.e. a patron of arts inspires artists).

DM Jon
I like it. Though it's probably more appropriate to have it cost the same as a standard shrine.

Andy
  well it's a bonus above the usual, so some extra cost seemed appropriate, I didn't want to get bogged down playing with costs when I didn't know if they worked or not so just stuck with +10 Gb for each.

Magnificent.  Once per year +4 to a local agitate action not +2 (must be same season as bless cast).   (This one might be too good, although it is 1/year only)

DM Jon
No annual bonuses.


Andy
rats, it would be overpowered if it was more often...

War I.  Allied units in the province are inspired to gain +1 defense. Up to 1 unit per temple holding level can benefit.

DM Jon
Boosting defense is a magical effect. +1 to morale perhaps possible - IF the army first goes and bow their heads at the shrine, seeking the blessings of the saint. Or something like that.

[colour=blue] sure, I just had the idea that a martial saint might make people fight harder, to me its mostly a fluff outgrowth.[/color]

War II. Allied units in the province are inspired to gain +1 offense. Up to 1 unit per temple holding level can benefit.

See above.


War III.  One garrisoned unit can be trained in the province per season as a free action.  (Is it too good with a garrisoned unit?  The cost saving isn't much for units that benefit from training i.e. unskilled ones).

DM Jon
Again, no magical effects. This sounds more like a military camp of some sort, i.e. not a shrine.

Well, as the Aegis some of my shrines will be military camps, as they will be dedicated to priests of war - many if not most Haelyn / Cuireacen saints will be military heroes of some sort.  Having people train 'in the saints name' seemed to fit.  As the action is free with a war action it didn't sound too bad - maybe a bonus to train unit success would fit better than cutting the cost/removing the court action cost.

War IV.  One unit can be mustered in the province per season as a free action (i.e. as if the domain was at war).

DM Jon
Sounds good, the warrior saint inspires people to train more etc.

that was the idea - the same thinking as war III but reflecting in a slightly different mechanic.

Watchful.  +2 to espionage actions within the same/neighbouring province once per season.

DM Jon
Don't know about this one, it's interesting though. The effect should probably only work within one province. And maybe reduce the cost to a standard shrine. But what would cause the effect?

Andy
I was trying to think about other gods - Eloele and Sera may not have many military saints, but they will have some damned cunning ones...
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Offline X-Points East

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Re: New structures
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2009, 03:26:25 am »

Ok, thinking more about chapel of the saint.  The standard is fine as a 'generic' chapel, but lacks any personification for the saint.  I figured that increasing the cost and adding a mainly fluff power would make sense.

Cost: Increase to 20 GB.  No maint increase.  DDC 12.
Requirements: Chapel's gotta have soul.  You need to tie the Saint to the effect and your church with a cool description.
Benefits: As normal chapel but 1 of:

Are these overpowered?  The idea is mostly just to add some coolness to the chapel's and distinguish between them...

OoC:

More benefit than,--and equal maintenance to,--the standard?

In an hypothetical context, with an assumed end of structural variegation, the standard chapel's Bless the Holy Land spell could conceivably be replaced by a different first-level divine realm spell (without changing DDC, Build Cost, and/or Upkeep), no?

« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 03:30:08 am by Points East/EL (Brandon) »

Offline X-DM Jon

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Re: New structures
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2009, 12:42:01 pm »
Heh, looks like I've missed the mark again. Bjørn has actually opened up the possibility for annual effects, not to mention the ability to cast spells using a chapel. I hadn't noticed that part before Brandon made a note of it.

 Brandon's idea ain't bad. A lvl 1 realm spell is "attached" to a chapel at the time of construction.

Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: New structures
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2009, 06:20:55 pm »

More benefit than,--and equal maintenance to,--the standard?

For double the up-front cost - and only a very minor extra benefit (the plan anyway, some may be OTT)

Basically the maintenance appears to be .25 Gb per 25 Gb cost - excepting the palaces and grand cathedral, so increasing the cost to 20-25 shouldn't increase the maintenance.

But yes changing the existing L1 spell, or the existing +2 to agitate, should also be doable, although those become very different structures - plus bless the holy is a 'surprisingly cheap' spell from a realm perspective, and one of the most commonly used.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 06:22:28 pm by Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) »
Robhan Khaiarén
High Marshal of Haelyn's Aegis
Work hard, walk with honour, be justly rewarded