MIRROR - Dawn at the Cathedral of Cuiraécen

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

Oh I'm not assuming that insult = duel, just that 'you assumed a throne 'x' years ago = reason for a duel today.

But to declare a duel the person must feel wronged - rightly or not - otherwise its just a fight.  So you have an 'insult', then a period to consider, then the seconds (of one sort or another) suggest an apology which both can live with, it only goes to an actual duel (first blood, wound, etc) if they both insist on fighting.

It likely should have gone 'ser estaban is who??? sh*t!  Ahem, grits teeth, perhaps I mis-spoke...'  crawl woman - eat your pride and have everyone laugh...  Now that would have been victory for the baron - and all without a drop of blood shed.

So if as you suggest the Aegis was called stuffed up pretenders robhan would laugh, the OIT have been obsolete for years - to be insulted by them they'd have to be right which is, of course, impossible    The 'insult' is not an 'insult to honour' it's just words.  But if someone publicly derided Haelyn, accused Roele of raping captives, burnt a temple, etc, etc then it would be insult - and by the gods they would beg forgiveness - or it would get bloody.  Put simply, somethings cannot just be shrugged off by a man of honour...

The baron cast the first insult - the sword mage responded with one of her own.  Now you can say that the baron was honest - in which case it was no insult - the question of who started it tends to be settled by a 'jury of peers' - or simply the survivors.  But a noble has to respond to a serious insult by someone credible - the baron was the aggressor as his comments were not 'gee, I think you were mean not to let my family take our old place' but were very deliberate provocation to force response  - modern people might say 'who threw the first punch', medieval people interpreted aggression as including injury to honour (as do many today outside of lawyers of course).  not that 'who started it makes much difference' - who picks where / when / how / what level of injury / etc all depends on the exact codes of the duel in question.

Could the swordmage have ignored the baron?  Wrong question, Could she have ignored his comments without losing face?  Did the insult disparage her honour in someway?  Impugn her right to title?  If so then no she couldn't - not and keep any noble honour.  Which of course is what the baron/whoever was behind it all wanted.

Now she could have tried deriding him as a nobody, laughing him off as so far beneath her that his words were meaningless - and perhaps pulled it off - but then the fact that her title is not fully recognised is precisely why that wouldn't work - and patience is a virtue because it is rare...

As is was the baron came over as scum, he doesn't even make 'brute' hid behind the green knight, he hoped (rightly) that her honour and pride would be her undoing.  How brave and noble of him! Now if he had fought her himself then he'd have had major honour - and won regardless of the outcome by showing such courage - if he was right about her and she uses magic to kill him then she loses what shreds of credibility she has, so she's caught between winning but not smashing him which is tricky - and all the while everyone has heard, and everyone is laughing at her predicament.  But no, the baron picked the fight, rammed it through before anyone could intervene, and refused to offer chance for apology, the honourable man seeing foe outmatched offers them surrender, if they are foolish enough to ignore it (she probably would have) then they can indulge in slaughter.

The GN doesn't come off much better, if he'd wanted to fight her brother he should have challenged the brother, if he wanted to fight the swordmage he should have challenged her directly.  Big brave knight who plots and schemes to fight someone half his size only on the grounds most favourable to him...  we had heard so much better of him... as it is his madness is going to leave a stain deserved or not - the knight who slaughters friend and foe alike, who is drunk on blood and death...

No, if you are looking for a 'winner' look at who ensorcelled the knight / convinced him that the best way to hurt a belinik thug was to become one himself.  Personally I wouldn't put much odds on the baron living out the winter one way or the other.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

'there is nothing for us in this city being seeing to the Patriarch's wounds, and honest men need our aid at home where honour and law yet remain'.  With that he turns and leaves.

It would probably not be too well received if HA left before the special session of CoT speaking these words. The basis for quite some misunderstandings (?) 

Ofcause HA have not announced they will be present at the session

Nope, given the whole thread happened in zilch flat (how many pages since I got back?  Eepers!  I thought we were at 'now lets cool things down, got to the next thread and saw the SM was already being creamed)  I figure he came, saw, got dis-illusioned in the first day or two and left.

Robhan won't even know about the special conclave unless someone tells him on his way from healing the patriarch's soldiers and any others injured in the panic.  He'd just send an apology most likely, he's not been impressed with the conclave so far - he's in it from duty, that's about all.

A few of his people will take a little longer to leave - his second is saying hi to the family for example, so might be there briefly, in practice it depends on whether I get a chance to log on (I'm off to the parents for the weekend) before the pontiff declares war and the benches are drowned in blood...

[X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)]

Oh I'm not assuming that insult = duel, just that 'you assumed a throne 'x' years ago = reason for a duel today.

But to declare a duel the person must feel wronged - rightly or not - otherwise its just a fight.  So you have an 'insult', then a period to consider, then the seconds (of one sort or another) suggest an apology which both can live with, it only goes to an actual duel (first blood, wound, etc) if they both insist on fighting.

The Baron cast the first insult... that day... agreed.
In my eyes, the Baron expresed his opinion. He breached etiquette by doing so, yes... but notice, that the Swordmage never demanded an appology. Her first words following his statement was "Those are fighting words Baron, I demand satisfaction" and that's the actual challenge.

Had she asked for an appology, keeping calm and keeping up appearance, it might have gone otherwise. Instead she took the bait. The Baron must have had a hard time, to resist punching his fist into the air and going "Yes!"
It's a game of politics and etiquette, and the winner is the one who keeps appearances the longest.

It likely should have gone 'ser estaban is who??? sh*t!  Ahem, grits teeth, perhaps I mis-spoke...'  crawl woman - eat your pride and have everyone laugh...  Now that would have been victory for the baron - and all without a drop of blood shed.

Yes, instead it would seem someone saw an easy prey in the weak and hotheaded Baron and jumped at it. 

So if as you suggest the Aegis was called stuffed up pretenders robhan would laugh, the OIT have been obsolete for years - to be insulted by them they'd have to be right which is, of course, impossible    The 'insult' is not an 'insult to honour' it's just words.  But if someone publicly derided Haelyn, accused Roele of raping captives, burnt a temple, etc, etc then it would be insult - and by the gods they would beg forgiveness - or it would get bloody.  Put simply, somethings cannot just be shrugged off by a man of honour...

On the other hand, did the HA not split from the original temple? If the OIT had the force, do you think they'd stop once, to consider? No, they'd provoke the HA to conflict.. preferably in such a way, as to make it appear as if the HA is the agressor and then pwn your arse

The baron cast the first insult - the sword mage responded with one of her own.

Actually, as I pointed out... her first words called to a duel. There's disappointingly few words about the no-doubt questionable lineage of the Baron 

  Now you can say that the baron was honest - in which case it was no insult - the question of who started it tends to be settled by a 'jury of peers' - or simply the survivors.  But a noble has to respond to a serious insult by someone credible - the baron was the aggressor as his comments were not 'gee, I think you were mean not to let my family take our old place' but were very deliberate provocation to force response  - modern people might say 'who threw the first punch', medieval people interpreted aggression as including injury to honour (as do many today outside of lawyers of course).  not that 'who started it makes much difference' - who picks where / when / how / what level of injury / etc all depends on the exact codes of the duel in question.

Framing his entire lineage and house (albeit some time ago) would in my book qualify as "the first punch"...

Could the swordmage have ignored the baron?  Wrong question, Could she have ignored his comments without losing face?  Did the insult disparage her honour in someway?  Impugn her right to title?  If so then no she couldn't - not and keep any noble honour.  Which of course is what the baron/whoever was behind it all wanted.

Now she could have tried deriding him as a nobody, laughing him off as so far beneath her that his words were meaningless - and perhaps pulled it off - but then the fact that her title is not fully recognised is precisely why that wouldn't work - and patience is a virtue because it is rare...

As is was the baron came over as scum, he doesn't even make 'brute' hid behind the green knight, he hoped (rightly) that her honour and pride would be her undoing.  How brave and noble of him! Now if he had fought her himself then he'd have had major honour - and won regardless of the outcome by showing such courage - if he was right about her and she uses magic to kill him then she loses what shreds of credibility she has, so she's caught between winning but not smashing him which is tricky - and all the while everyone has heard, and everyone is laughing at her predicament.  But no, the baron picked the fight, rammed it through before anyone could intervene, and refused to offer chance for apology, the honourable man seeing foe outmatched offers them surrender, if they are foolish enough to ignore it (she probably would have) then they can indulge in slaughter.

The GN doesn't come off much better, if he'd wanted to fight her brother he should have challenged the brother, if he wanted to fight the swordmage he should have challenged her directly.  Big brave knight who plots and schemes to fight someone half his size only on the grounds most favourable to him...  we had heard so much better of him... as it is his madness is going to leave a stain deserved or not - the knight who slaughters friend and foe alike, who is drunk on blood and death...

No, if you are looking for a 'winner' look at who ensorcelled the knight / convinced him that the best way to hurt a belinik thug was to become one himself.  Personally I wouldn't put much odds on the baron living out the winter one way or the other.

Although I agree that it was a dastardly way of dealing with it, it all happened according to an unwritten(?) code of conduct. It was not the Baron who challenged, thus it is the Swordmage who brought conflict to the Sword and Crown... the incident with the Green Knight is something completely different though 
Once again, in the world of Anuirean nobility it all comes down to who has the appearance of righteousness... not who actually *is* right. Just as you stated, it's all settled by a 'jury of peers'.

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

What exactly happened with this Tshalen baron? What was he baron of and when did this big setup take place?

[X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)]

And there it is, right in front of you. You're looking down at the pure, naked terror of this man, you got him good just then. But the memory won't go away.

 You have seen him before! Like this! In the grip of terror!

 It was... In the time of High Prefect Hubaere Armiendin... Holy relics had been stolen. A good many years ago. You received information that the Tshalen family had stolen them! And indeed there they were! Hidden away in their treasury.

 They had denied everything at first of course, but the templars had been thorough and when you came, as aide to one of the Bishops. You saw him. In the grip of terror. His entire family, reduced to shuddering, terror-stricken islands of humanity... Lost.

 Later it was discovered that it was the Swordmage who had stolen the objects and planted them with the Tshalen family. It was discovered and they were cleared of all charges, but somehow the family never really recovered... And war threw a blanket of blood over the necessary retribution. Later it was forgotten... So many horrible things happened in those years, Tshalen became just one out of so very many.

 And Aurlien forgave her everything, just like that. And she fought and killed the Eyeless One. Crazy Aurlien...

 But this man never did! Never forgave anyone anything.

From the dueling thread... this is of course Pontiff Wallac's personal feelings, but there's a good glimpse at the history there, and I'm guessing that some of this, at least, is known?

[X-DM Jon]

It's not a secret, but then again it's over a decade ago, maybe even 20 years, so most nobles outside of the general area wouldn't know it. You hear most of the story from the Pontiff during the duel - if you're not to wrapped up in the general mayhem 

[X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)]

It's not a secret, but then again it's over a decade ago, maybe even 20 years, so most nobles outside of the general area wouldn't know it. You hear most of the story from the Pontiff during the duel - if you're not to wrapped up in the general mayhem 

Or getting your ears chopped of.
Kaven is in his start 30'ies now... the chances of him knowing is pretty slim.

[X-DM Jon]

It's not a secret, but then again it's over a decade ago, maybe even 20 years, so most nobles outside of the general area wouldn't know it. You hear most of the story from the Pontiff during the duel - if you're not to wrapped up in the general mayhem 

Or getting your ears chopped of.
Kaven is in his start 30'ies now... the chances of him knowing is pretty slim.

 And stories like these are in endless supply. Anuire is not a nice place and people carry grudges a long time.

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

Arvour's been doing mercenary fork for nearly two decades before he became regent 8 years ago, but yah, he probably wouldn't have care much for a particular baron.

Where is he from however, what was he baron of?

[X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander)]

He is still a Baron, he is one of Osoerde's vassals. He holds the same lands as before, only now he is a vassal of Osoerde instead of Ghoere. This is all bitterness and hate stemming from the dissolution of Ghoere and the events that followed... The Swordmage did some nasty stuff back then, this is one of them.

[X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)]

He's one of my fellows - runs Osoerde's West Hold like I do South Hold.  Except I'm nicer and prettier and cooler in every way.

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

He is still a Baron, he is one of Osoerde's vassals. He holds the same lands as before, only now he is a vassal of Osoerde instead of Ghoere. This is all bitterness and hate stemming from the dissolution of Ghoere and the events that followed... The Swordmage did some nasty stuff back then, this is one of them.

Tshalen was a vassal of Osoerde at the time.  This even took place during the Inquisition period in Osoerde where numerous House were decimated after being exposed as worshippers of the Dark Gods, and the ETN & IHH were battling the TCB tooth and nail in Osoerde (tons of realm magic being wielded, contestations, ruling etc, it was very ugly).

Basically what happened in RoEI was...

Artifacts of the IHH were stolen (Chalice of something or other).
SM warpped Tshalen minds, persumably to set a trap for the High Prefect of the IHH (very wise).
Osoer, High Prefect (Armeindin) and Wallac Isilviere arrived (with numerous retainers) and a very well hidden Iron Rider.
Wallac & Osoer are set loose on House Tshalen.
Armiendin (and an 'aide', the obfuscated Iron Rider) locate the Chalice in Achiese.
Armiendin is attacked by Drago and a hidden wizard (Sword Mage).
Suddenly, IR appears and engages the SM (they duel even).
Armeindin and Drago duke it out.  Armiendin is wounded by the Axe of Belinik (Haelynites should beware that axe, btw -- it wasn't fun).  Drago takes a savage blow from Armeindin (blasted by an Empowered Flame Strike).
SM and Drago retreat.

[X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)]

He's one of my fellows - runs Osoerde's West Hold like I do South Hold.  Except I'm nicer and prettier and cooler in every way.

Wow, something else that Arvour and SM have in common... a baron of  "<insert cardinal direction> Hold" as best buddy foreverTM

[X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)]

Except that those two cases have opposing roles: Arvour has a valid complaint against Bellamie, whereas Tshalen is the one with a pretty hefty grievance against the Swordmage.  Tshalen's entire house could have been ended, and he and every member of his family executed as heretics, to say nothing of the damage/horror inflicted on his mind as a result of the (presumably) Subversion spell employed here.    Equivalent to someone who tried to destroy your kingdom and kill every member of your family in Azrai's name.  Compared to that, Bellamie's actions, even in the darkest light you paint them, were pretty minor.  Add in that she not only walked away consequence-free, but is now a "duchess", and kingdom ruler, and is being heralded as a Defender of the Light, and I can't really blame Tshalen for being a little touchy on the whole subject, somehow.

[X-DM Jon]

Thank you Bobby! Finally someone seeing the light.

 The only thing that went wrong was Tshalen hadn't counted on the Green Knight having other plans.