Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta invites the lords of Anuire to air their opinions on the topic; "Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms."
The form is by open letter, that is, a copy is made available to all regents that have diplomatic channels open to Elinie. - The debate takes place over several months of the spring and may continue well into summer.
Rashid is the Duke of Elinie, and along with Mhoried, Osoerde and several other regents, he has holdings in the goblin realm of Markazor. He begins the debate with an open letter;

"By the Grace of Haelyn, the human race have expanded everywhere, across the surface of Cerilia. We have had dealings with dwarves, elves and halflings and these races have integrated into our realms and live peacefully in mutual understanding.

The orogs are beasts with a culture steeped in violence, too far gone for peaceful relations. The goblins have historically been treated as pests, vermin to be driven out or destroyed.

However, with the taming of Markazor, goblins now swear fealty to human masters and present us with a conundrum aswell as an opportunity.

This is the reason for this discussion. A noble is obliged to protect his people from the predations of monsters, but when the "people" are what passed for monsters, mere years ago, what then, does the good regent do?

More pointedly, what does the regent do, when the people are preyed upon, not by monsters, but misguided but wellmeaning forces of good... Say Paladins for instance."

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

The goblins have been treated as pests because they behave as pests and have always done so. Inherently they are creatures of evil nature.

For the sake of argument I will carry on with this, in my eyes, rather derailed discussion.
One could argue the orogs, should they swear fealty to a human master, should be protected by said human masters.

Myth has several examples to this; among those the story of the Drake comes to mind. He was master of the Orogs who in turn worshipped him as a dark good sacrificing plunder and slaves to him. I believe he protected them when it suited his own dark ends. Orogs seems not to be particularly happy about other humans though and besides their rumored worship of the Drake the orogs worship a fell demon; an ancient demon of some sort, summoned by Azrai. These nice creatures worship demons much as do the goblins who now call you their master.

I wonder what sort of master you is calling these creatures your citizens and I believe that the continued cooperation between “your” goblins and the wild goblins bare testimony to the impossibility of civilized goblins. These creatures are your pawns and you protect them and give them a safe haven where they can regain their former strength.

How does Elinie’s state faith LPA perceive this?
Do LPA sanction Goblins as civilized creatures and count them among their communion?

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

I will not speak for the LPA, but note that they have already converted many goblins in Sutren Hills to the grace of Avanalae.

Know also, that the law of Elinie is in effect in the Hills, not the laws of Markazor that was.

Anyone able to call themselves sentient and live within the rules of said law, will be given sanctuary.

Obviously, monsters such as undead that cannot sustain themselves without causing the misery of other people are illegal, as they are in all of Anuire.

Indeed, Elinie is blessed with a multitude of species. We should not, and will not, go about slaying them out of hand. what about the Great Dragon in Hope's Demise? - The lizard folk that works and worships it?

The dwarves, elves and halflings?

Any bully will be treated evenly, orog, goblin or human. Actions, not heritage, will decide if you are monster or friend.

This does not mean that a citizen of Elinie, can do crimes in another country and then flee back, to escape just prosecution. There are rules and regulations for these things, and they must be respected without exception.

If we do not, then all that will remain is Chaos.

Many humans fought for Azrai. Many declared their allegience to the Dark. We have not slain all descendants of those who did this. Indeed, to assume that the crimes of their forefathers are carried by the children will begin a spiral of ever expanding violence and suffering.

Some, that live today, even carry the taint of the Azrai blood, but are well functioning people that do not do more evil, than any other man. It is not until a man allows himself to succumb to his dark side, and acts upon it, that he should be punished for his deeds.

This should not be interpreted to mean that due dilligence and observance should be neglected. Indeed the opposite.

Does the holy Pontiff speak for Osoerde and Mhoried? - Is his words to be taken as meaning, that goblins peacefully living in the Markazor provinces invaded by these two proud nations, are due to be hunted down and slain?

Although few in number, there are bound to be goblins blessed with blood of Holy derivation. Are they to be slain too? - Simply for being goblins?

What of Vosgard oh Holy Pontiff? - They are hard men of a hard land, and many of their traditions are harsh to the pampered eyes of civilized Anuire. Should they be slain as a matter of principle too?

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Please will the Duke of Elinie point to where I said to slay all goblins outright?

Do not quote me for things I have not said. I said "The goblins have been treated as pests because they behave as pests". I was not specific as to who have been treating them as pests.

LPA having goblins in their church is new to me and give cause for greater scrutiny of LPA’s Modus Operandi. This matter however will not be dealt with here.

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

My sincerest and deepest apologies High Pontiff. It is now clear to me, that you do not consider goblins pests, but courageously, only as creatures of inherently evil nature.

The distinction is most subtle your Holiness, I missed the nuances of your good and chivalrous opinion.

I will convey the just feelings of the High Pontiff to all the people of Elinie, that there be left no doubt on the rulership of the combined churches of Haelyn, for whom only the High Pontiff may speak.

Most noble Pontiff, by the Grace of Haelyn, may reason ever light your path.

Does anyone else wish their voice be heard?

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Mastering Goblins a tad better than diplomacy the Duke of Elinie should take heed of this advice; the use of sarcasm is contra productive when trying to convince others to see things your way.

First quoting the Pontiff falsely and when caught in the act, to refrain from any kind of apologize but instead answering using sarcasm could be perceived as if you really do want to stir up troubles for you and your people.

Untruth denotes the disconformities of speech with reality. It is surely the source of evils. From this cause, the Book of Law has banned untruth, censured the untruthful, and threatened them through numerous texts following the tradition of the imperial temple and its inheritors.

Heed this warning and turn back before it is too late.

Repent instead of continuing down your path as lord of goblins and speaker of untruth as it will surely lead to your doom

[X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)]

A letter is sent from Medoere on this subject.

Lords and Ladies,
The matter has been raised as whether or not goblins can be considered a part of our Empire.
I will answer thusly, that for some small part, they already are.
A very minor number of goblins can be found living alongside their human neighbors in southern Caerwil. Not a realm recently taken to the glory of the Empire, but a core part of the Medoerean realm.
They have been granted permission to stay, because they heed the laws of the land and generally keep to themselves. Of course, more focus are perhaps directed upon them, than would normally be set on such small numbers of people, but so far they have caused no problems. I even surmise, that with the propper incentive, they may yet prove a significant factor in dealing with the fell.

Personally I consider it somewhat of an experiment, but good might come out of it.
I ask that the gathered Lords think of the many fronts we already face. If we could utilize diplomacy, instead of steel, we might lessen some... Peace exists between human and goblin alike in Caerwil.

- Kaven Enlien, Baron of Medoere

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

A letter from a sheriff in one of the more eastern villages of Mhoried.

A small group of goblins living quietly in the shadow of their neighours is one thing - the odd goblin has rarely been a problem.  Goblins given equal rights as citizens, perhaps bearing arms in numbers, gaining position as sheriffs, even judges and given power over men?  A very different story.

I can accept the odd goblin rising far above their peers, but these few are rare indeed, any hardship they face through stark conditions pale besides the harm the majority would do if unchecked.  For the most part goblins are near feral and wedded to evil, alone or in small groups they avoid conflict, as their numbers grow so does their aggression and arrogance - even those apparently peaceful must be watched.

Few are those who live far from goblins and the tales - and presence - of raiders.  The Spiderfell, the 5 Peaks, The Gorgon's Crown, Thurazor and sadly still Morcosoer.  All the neighbours of these realms find raids an ever present reality, goblins follow readily the strong, and scorn those righteous.  Even Dhoesone which has strived to make peace with Thurazor must periodically deal with trouble from its neighbour.

Such has it been since our ancestors drove the goblins from our lands - for most of Anuire was ruled by goblins before we fled Aduria - the hatreds are burnt bone deep into our marrow and any hope of teaching otherwise is the work of generations - should it be possible or desirable.  To teach goblins civilisation, something far stranger to their nature than the forgetting of hatred is to ours, is an even harder task.  I often hear talk of goblins converted by the village and hamlet; until you have seen a shrine supposedly dedicated to holy Nesirie despoiled by human sacrifice you have never tasted the bile of true hypocrisy or known the truth of how easily lies come to goblinkind.  They may mouth obedience, but should you ever appear weak before them their loyalty will vanish and all you have built will be destroyed.

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

Mastering Goblins a tad better than diplomacy the Duke of Elinie should take heed of this advice; the use of sarcasm is contra productive when trying to convince others to see things your way.

First quoting the Pontiff falsely and when caught in the act, to refrain from any kind of apologize but instead answering using sarcasm could be perceived as if you really do want to stir up troubles for you and your people.

Untruth denotes the disconformities of speech with reality. It is surely the source of evils. From this cause, the Book of Law has banned untruth, censured the untruthful, and threatened them through numerous texts following the tradition of the imperial temple and its inheritors.

Heed this warning and turn back before it is too late.

Repent instead of continuing down your path as lord of goblins and speaker of untruth as it will surely lead to your doom

Your Holiness, you do not seem like a man to gest. Yet surely you must, for it can surely not be your intention to call me, the Patriarch of Elinie, a Paladin of Avanalae, the god of Reason and Law, a liar?

My sincere apology was given, that I mistook the High Pontiff's words for his own, as there were no quotation to accredit and surely noone writes words they do not, at some level, believe in?

I have written no lies, and demand an apology, if liar is indeed what the High Pontiff of Haelyn, who is the god of chivalry, does call me.

Let all who see these letters, bear witness that I may be bold in debate but not a liar!

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

You require me to apologize? For reacting to your quoting me falsely? Nowhere did I see you take responsebility for your error but use of sarcasm. My esteem for you are dropping as I write.

I think this correspondance will lead us nowhere and withdraw. If you want to discus these matters further with me please send a dispatch to the Conclave and your can defend your views before the cardinals

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

Mis-readings and mis-understandings are common - should one have been mis-interpreted then it is a kindness to the other to state clearly the position one took - particularly if using humour or sarcasm, both of which are open to confusion.  Should harsh words continue then it becomes time for anger for offence is then clearly intended.

As to debate, there is boldness, and then there is direct assault on the community and challenge to its ideals and morals - the latter is sure to meet not merely argument but anger.  Little sign have I seen of recognition that goblins threaten many realms of Anuire, nor that until recent months they preyed upon the folk of Mhoried and Elenie even as they now prey upon Morcosoer.

Kindly recall good Patriarch that the wounds of such raids - and the recent wars - are yet raw and will be long in healing, it will be long those in discourse are dust in our graves that any change in relations between humanity and goblins such as that you propose will come to pass, to argue without recognising the inherent truths of the past is to undermine your argument for change in the future and rouse impatient response from those still faced with goblin blades poised above those in their charge.

We have spoken long of goblins and you have made clear the stern measures you have taken and continue to take to ensure that the goblins of the Sutren Hills prey not on others - yet no word of such has been aired in this discourse and so unsurprisingly you are not credited with understanding the threats - both overt and insidious - that goblins pose.

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

I will keep my people under control. Goblin or otherwise.

And I have asked what approach I should choose, from the premise that the goblins are there to stay.

I have not recieved answers that does not stem from fear, that the goblins cannot be controlled, cannot be redeemed.

So, my original question remains unanswered aswell. - Except for Medoere who also has a population of goblins, and where they function within the framework of that area.

I would have liked to hear the views of Osoerde and Mhoried.

[X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)]

Another letter is sent from Medoere.

"Lords and Ladies,
It seems to me, that we as a race would condemn others by the colour of their skin and the deeds of their forefathers. Yet in ages past, we where the agressors, driven by need at first, to claim land and later by desire to expand.

Is it so hard to believe, that creatures such as they might redeem themselves? Is it so hard to believe, that one might wish to turn towards what is good and right, or seek protection from cruel would-be masters?

Men serve dark forces too, yet they redeem themselves, by words and deed and all sing songs of praise to the Gods, me among the loudest, that those, who where once fallen, may return to the light again.
Noble folk, some pressed against their will, others embracing the darkness willingly once, all these may turn their backs on who they where once and step back into the arms and bossoms of the gods. Why there is even living walking proof of such recent happenings, yet when something of a different appearance try the same, we mock and scorn them, or seek to drive them back, into the arms of their old masters.

I wonder how often a creature has sought to leave it's past behind it and seek a better way of life, only to be trampled to death by a mob, fearful of that which they do not know. Bear that in mind, before you throw the killing stone."

- Kaven Enlien, Baron of Medoere

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

As far as IHH are concerned goblin raiders will regardless of whatever arguments the good Baron kaven or the leader of Elinie come up with be killed on sight, relentlessly pursued and their lair burned out.

Unlike human’s goblin are born evil. Goblins are evil at heart. When unchecked goblins kill, rape, plunder, cheat, lie and generally spread mayhem to their neighbors. Millenniums of atrocities executed against innocent human farmers testimony to that.

Goblins apparently civilized only pretend as to escape rightful judgment. At any time they can lapse back and show their true nature.

While IHH do not advocate for actual genocide of the goblin race we do want them removed from our lands - as far away as possible.

If the leader of Elinie tries to convince us otherwise he either has lost all sense or is in league with evil. Pretending his agenda is only good he fail to listen to any arguments, quote false and lapse to sarcasm. If he wishes to be known as the Goblin Lord it’s his choice but I ask him not to poison the mind of others.

Needless to say the leader of Elinie, also known as the Goblin Lord, will be held responsible for atrocities committed by goblins under his protection.

Wallac Isilviere
Pontiff Conclave of Temples
High Prefect IHH

[X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)]

A letter once more origins from Medoere.

"Lords and Ladies,
The notion that anyone, human or otherwise, might be born evil is a grave thing and not to be taken too lightly.
If evil in a goblin is a cause of nature, instead of nurture as others, myself amongst them, are want to believe, this also bears with it, that to slay such creatures whenever you meet them would be an act of goodness.
By such admission an unborn goblin child might be just as evil as the leader of a raiding warparty... it is in their nature to do evil, is the argument. Thus whether we strike at the unborn in it's womb or the raiding goblin waving a weapon at our head, we would be acting in the service of good.

But it does not end there.
By accepting that the nature of the goblin is evil, we also admit that a human willingly chooses to do evil, against his better nature.
Is such a man not more evil, than the goblin then? For the goblin has no choice, if it is his nature to act as he does and the human willfully steps from the path of righteousness... yet we give the human a chance at redemption and not the goblin. Why? Because we believe that one who strays from the path, can return. Yet what would hinder him in straying again, should opportunity present itself?

Good Godfearing Anuireans achieve material and social wealth by living by the rules of the society. Good people decide to achieve their goals through means that are considered good in their ethics, just as bad people consciously choose evil means.
I say, that though the goblin societies might build on principles, that we consider evil, where I to take a goblin child from his tribe and nurture him in our world and society, he would consider these principles his own and act accordingly, by our rules and laws.

Evil stems from nurture not nature. And I for one great the noble 'Goblin Lord' as an equal and only wish that I myself might act more as he, to prove this.

- Kaven Enlien, Baron of Enlien.