Author Topic: Suggestion: Realm Magic Update - Caster Level  (Read 16245 times)

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Offline X-Ilien & PCE/GeM (Linde)

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Re: Suggestion: Realm Magic Update - Caster Level
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2010, 07:15:32 PM »

The system is applicable to both domains and characters. Conceptually, the best of the two would be used.  Notice that the Eastern Temple of Nesirie is listed as both Primary and Secondary representing that fact that its regent is considered to be the most powerful cleric within Anuire, despite the fact that she is multiclassed, and the ETN is a temple which significant prusuits which would normally dilute spell-casting ability.  The system affords for special circumstances, and if the system doesn't, Bjorn does.
I cant see how a characters ability to do whatever should be hampered, or given bonus by his domain. I disagree with any rule that bases character abilities in what domain he is, unless it is in that specifc domains description that they are really good at/or suck at that stuff.
Regarding ETN, I believe that the fact that the regent of ETN is considered to be the most powerful cleric should not warrent additional bonuses to ETN, but instead be an indication that the regent of ETN is higher level than most other clerics. If she is not, then this would just be an example that sometimes people get it wrong.



The dynamic between domain and regent is central to the game, but make no doubt that the regent manifests from the domain.  RoE is a game about domains though and regents are by no means domains.  With this being said, regents are critical to spell-casting domains and the current system does not jive well with the rule system that all other regent (non-spell casters) are subject too; my system was intended to address this.

I am sorry... I can't seem to find the rules that tie every non spellcasting regent to a specific set of skills and skill levels

But since you seem to think that it is only spellcasters who have been freed from their domain in such a way, then please direct me to where in the rules or erratta it is stated that all other regents have their set of abilities determined by what domain they rule and how much that domain has to do.

Incidentally, if you are looking for hard and fast rules, the categories are not intended to do that.  Instead, it is about assessing the domain/regent and applying their general characteristics.

Spellcasting regents are subject to the same abstracted level rules as all other regents when it comes to everything but spellcasting.
If you are to abstract their levels when it comes to spellcasting, then you need to abstract spellcasting too. You need to get rid of spell levels from 1-9 and make it into abstract low to epic level spells.

Rules that are not hard and fast are not rules. They are instead a wobbeling goo of: if I speak my case well enough I will gain a bonus that my friend here will not get, cause he is not as good at speaking his case as I am.

Where is the table that assesses that since a domain has access to the ocean the regent clearly has too much on his mind and as such can not be good at warfare? And then with the prospect of being nurfed for something completely unreasonabe the affected players can speak their case of why just their realm can handle warfare anyway.... I would find that idea pretty much the same as the table if the idea of primary, seccondary and tertiary is preserved.

Again, conceptually, if I look at Geraldine, in terms of standard DnD, it  is very difficult to construct a character that is a passibly good rogue/guilder regent and wizard without sacrificing significant spell casting power. A character such as this would have almost no skill in the various adminstration skills, and the rogue level is largely noise (particularly if it wasn't 1st level, which I would bet it wasn't given the character history).  I challenge someone to do this, knowing that from the updated Chapter 8, casting realm magic has steep requirements: 5 feats, 24 skill ranks.
Well, I havent read the updated Chapter 8, but I know that a characters abilities within various administration skills are governed by skillpoints, and luckily when first you have chosen that your next level will be a wizard level, you will acctually gain skillpoints... Not as many as a rogue will, but surely enough to cover 24 skill ranks with less than 5 levels. So to further penalize a wizards ability to do magic based on a conceptual view of what he should be doing, is wrong... Instead the DM should factor the regents skills in regards to his domain into the difficulty of the various relevant events.

Besides, the regent of a domain has able assistants for just that end, no regent is superhuman in every field, so they hire experts to help.

It has allready been ruled by Bjørn atleast in a mail to me, that while regent of a sorcerous domain you are able to cast realm magic regardless of any requirements left unfilled. So the table you propose is, in my eyes, only here to force the conceptual ideas of others down on sorcerous domains and take freedom away from or give unwarrented extra power to players who are able to cast realm spells.

The abstraction system actually allows characters to be freed from the numbers, ultimately, IMO, because for the most part, most people would not be able to create a regent from the 'rules' that is as deep as their current regent, without using their player knowledge/skill to supplement the cold, hard numbers.
Well, here again we have a differance of oppinion.
I belive that further details are only there to flesh out your regent.
I also think that a player is more than the numbers, as you say the player has knowledge and skill that he uses to further the agenda of his regent/domain.
But I dont see the abstraction system as being freed from the numbers, I just see a new set of numbers, one that favor those able to speak their case for why their domain/regent should have a bonus instead of a system equal for all.

And I dont see the rules as a limit to player imagination. That my regent doesnt have knowledge (Ilien) doesnt mean she doesnt know anything about her county. It just means she knows nothing about her county that will give her a significant bonus in a relevant event. But she can still know more about it than most outsiders, and seem learned about Ilien to the common public.



« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 07:18:41 PM by Ilien & PCE/GeM (Linde) »
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Offline X-Ilien & PCE/GeM (Linde)

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Re: Suggestion: Realm Magic Update - Caster Level
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2010, 07:31:29 PM »
I could live with the concept of Primary/seccondary/tertiary focus if it was the players choice as it is with skills

[Edit] Perhaps even making caster level a skill and as such forcing a mage to either focus or split his focus on temporal or magical issues.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 07:35:15 PM by Ilien & PCE/GeM (Linde) »
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Offline X-EOM/SS (Tristan)

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Re: Suggestion: Realm Magic Update - Caster Level
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2010, 10:40:34 PM »
I have been meaning to write this topic.  As it stands, character level has largely been abstracted, but this does really translate well to realm magic/caster level. I would propose the following for spell casting characters/domains:

I think the intention to abstract character level from spellcasting is a worthwhile goal, it has already been largely abstracted in player facing aspects to be more descriptive, which in a PBEM game with PbP adventures is quite beneficial to game flow and the ability to be descriptive rather than number crunching.

What Alan has done is lay a direct link between character level and casting ability, which while simple has, I feel, skipped the entire discussion of what should impact casting ability.

Personally I'd favour a slightly more complex consideration that takes multiple variables into consideration.

I would consider:
  • Domain strength (for appropriate holdings only) i.e. a Divine spellcaster would consider the strength of their temple holdings.
  • Character level (abstracted) in the appropriate class/es.
  • RP/fluff/domain flavour, i.e. the GM given bonuses.

Give each of the above factors a numeric value, compare it to a table and that gives you spell breakdown and max level.

I'd also support a revamp of the spell lists, there are plenty of unnecessary spells as well as many useless and some overly useful spells. I'd like to see the list pruned, it's always annoyed me that the spell list chapter tends to be the biggest one in most systems.
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Offline X-ETN/Maire Cwyllmie (Libor)

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Re: Suggestion: Realm Magic Update - Caster Level
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2010, 11:00:39 PM »
Libor, 90% of the rules/erratas established in RoEI are in play for RoEII.  In actuality, this rule did not appear in either Regent Guide for RoEI or RoEII, nonetheless, it is in effect as far as I know.  I am sorry that this is apparantly news to you.
I think you are quite wrong. If newer version of document doesn't contain older errata, it means that the errata are not in effect. Last word on this matter belongs to Bjorn though. Also, I believe it was repeatedly stated that RoE II is a new game. And my point was that even the old and outdated rule states something different than what you were saying.

The character system is imbalanced in the following ways:

If you take Osoer for example, regardless of whether he is level 7, 8, or 9 - his statistics for domain- and character-level play remains absolutely the same.
A spell caster though would see significant change during this arc - 2 new spell levels and potentially, the ability to affect more targets via magic, etc.

This is the basic imbalance in the character-system as it stands.
Actually it is only 1 new spell level, but conceptually, you are true. But I don't see your proposal solving it. Realm casters would still gain more power from new levels than others (provided they have holdings of high enough level to make use of it). It is just that spellcasting domain reaches its full efficiency on higher regent level (level in appropriate class) than other domains.

Actually, your proposal would make spellcaster's rise in power even steeper if he is multiclassed. Because levels in non-magic class would add to his spellcasting power as much as those in his core magic class.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 11:07:46 PM by ETN/Maire Cwyllmie (Libor) »

Offline X-Osoerde (Alan)

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Re: Suggestion: Realm Magic Update - Caster Level
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2010, 05:50:04 AM »
I cant see how a characters ability to do whatever should be hampered, or given bonus by his domain. I disagree with any rule that bases character abilities in what domain he is, unless it is in that specifc domains description that they are really good at/or suck at that stuff.
Regarding ETN, I believe that the fact that the regent of ETN is considered to be the most powerful cleric should not warrent additional bonuses to ETN, but instead be an indication that the regent of ETN is higher level than most other clerics. If she is not, then this would just be an example that sometimes people get it wrong.

Marie Cwyllmie, is an additional asset/resource of the Eastern Temple of Nesirie domain, which augments and heightens the prestige, clout and power of the domain as a whole.  This in effect is a bonus to that domain which is temporary based only on the time that Cwyllmie remains its regent.  The regent is nothing more than the manifestation of a domain, the embodiment of its will/ethos, in this regard, while the regent plays a central part to the domain, it is absolutely NOT the domain, which can continue independent of the regent - the latter cannot be said of a regent though.


I am sorry... I can't seem to find the rules that tie every non spellcasting regent to a specific set of skills and skill levels

But since you seem to think that it is only spellcasters who have been freed from their domain in such a way, then please direct me to where in the rules or erratta it is stated that all other regents have their set of abilities determined by what domain they rule and how much that domain has to do.

Your point is lost on me, Linde.  Landed/Guild domains are limited by a skill set in which most of them will not and cannot obtain mastery, for obvious reasons: regents cannot typically dedicate enough time to achieve mastery.

If the prusuit of magic, nobility, and trade all require practice, study, and discipline, why does it seem reasonable that a regent who controls and oversees all three, be able to master all three?  How does this seem likely or even remotely plausible?  It seems that they might be decent at all three or good at one and fair at others, but very unlikely that they would be good at all three.  As it stands, these characters get access to the skill system (without modification) and spellcasting (without modification), which seems to create imbalance within the system.

Spellcasting regents are subject to the same abstracted level rules as all other regents when it comes to everything but spellcasting.
If you are to abstract their levels when it comes to spellcasting, then you need to abstract spellcasting too. You need to get rid of spell levels from 1-9 and make it into abstract low to epic level spells.

I have noted that the spell levels could/would need to undergo a similar revision and that I did not believe that this would be overly difficult.  I apologize if this was unclear earlier.

Rules that are not hard and fast are not rules. They are instead a wobbeling goo of: if I speak my case well enough I will gain a bonus that my friend here will not get, cause he is not as good at speaking his case as I am.

Bjorn is only bribeable by the way in which your roleplay and commit to the game - and even then you will still get screwed (a lot).  Since Bjorn would be the final arbiter in this, I don't forsee this as an issue. 

Where is the table that assesses that since a domain has access to the ocean the regent clearly has too much on his mind and as such can not be good at warfare? And then with the prospect of being nurfed for something completely unreasonabe the affected players can speak their case of why just their realm can handle warfare anyway.... I would find that idea pretty much the same as the table if the idea of primary, seccondary and tertiary is preserved.
I am having trouble understanding what gross unfairness you envision will happen with this system.  In effect it already exists for the skill system, where regents need to justify their skill-set (or at least can if neccessary).  I don't think this has been a problem in the game, but I could be misinformed perhaps?

Well, I havent read the updated Chapter 8, but I know that a characters abilities within various administration skills are governed by skillpoints, and luckily when first you have chosen that your next level will be a wizard level, you will acctually gain skillpoints... Not as many as a rogue will, but surely enough to cover 24 skill ranks with less than 5 levels. So to further penalize a wizards ability to do magic based on a conceptual view of what he should be doing, is wrong... Instead the DM should factor the regents skills in regards to his domain into the difficulty of the various relevant events.

Besides, the regent of a domain has able assistants for just that end, no regent is superhuman in every field, so they hire experts to help.

It has allready been ruled by Bjørn atleast in a mail to me, that while regent of a sorcerous domain you are able to cast realm magic regardless of any requirements left unfilled. So the table you propose is, in my eyes, only here to force the conceptual ideas of others down on sorcerous domains and take freedom away from or give unwarrented extra power to players who are able to cast realm spells.

It would be the concept of the table to either curb or expand the power of spell-casting domains to bring more in line with the level abstraction system.  Incidentally, does it not seem that granting sorcerous domains the ability to cast realm magic, even if their regent by themselves would be unable, seem a little unbalancing?  Wouldn't you expect that the regent of such a domain would wield magic the same as one who could?
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Offline X-Osoerde (Alan)

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Re: Suggestion: Realm Magic Update - Caster Level
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2010, 05:55:54 AM »
I could live with the concept of Primary/seccondary/tertiary focus if it was the players choice as it is with skills

[Edit] Perhaps even making caster level a skill and as such forcing a mage to either focus or split his focus on temporal or magical issues.

Skills are not the choice of the player expressly.  They are reviewed and approved by Bjorn/Jon, even if tacitly.

[Edit] Perhaps even making caster level a skill and as such forcing a mage to either focus or split his focus on temporal or magical issues.
This is a very good idea, an extremely good idea.  I will think on this some and think how something like this might work.

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Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: Suggestion: Realm Magic Update - Caster Level
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2010, 12:23:21 AM »
Note: Requirements to cast realm magic are:  8 ranks in concentration, spell craft and the relevant magical knowledge skill, cast ritual spell, cast realm spell, 1 metamagic feat.

Personally I feel that the auto-feat aspect of the domain is more distortive than helpful - it effectively prohibits having two spellcasters in a domain (possibly no bad thing of course) or prevents a lieutenant being the primary caster while the regent takes a broader role.  I'd prefer to remove the two 'cast x spell' feat requirement than say that the domain bestows them for free - I am left to wonder why <any one> would buy these feats, as they are only of use to someone high ranking enough in a domain to have access to the source/temple power, but are of no use to the actual regent - a very select group of people and a group of very temporary membership in the main...  The freebie's also support the importance of the regent over the domain, not the converse - if the domain could grant the free feat effect to one character a season it would support the domain=key aspect more.

Skill base:  This is a good alternative, but requires us to move towards a more skill-based magic system generally - so a skill check to cast any realm spell, easier with added RP spend, harder with higher level, etc, etc.
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Offline X-Osoerde (Alan)

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Re: Suggestion: Realm Magic Update - Caster Level
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2010, 08:04:03 PM »
Skill base:  This is a good alternative, but requires us to move towards a more skill-based magic system generally - so a skill check to cast any realm spell, easier with added RP spend, harder with higher level, etc, etc.

Not Neccesarily, Andy. I think we are only talking about abstracting the spell casting system so that it fits into the overall skill system.  Since we don't really worry about DCs and the like in game, it should neccessiate us moving wholesale in this particular direction.
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Offline X-Osoerde (Alan)

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Example: Realm Magic as a 'Skill'
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2010, 08:40:13 PM »
I have tried this numerous ways, this is my favorite.

This doesn't correspond to the Standard D&D, so for a moment, before looking at the table you need to suspend the standard D&D rules regarding spell progression and the like.

# Maximum Spell Level (# Caster Level)
     Master     
     Expert     
     Skilled     
Proficient     
Untrained
Low (1-3)
2(3)
1(1)
0(1)
-
-
Medium (4-6)
3(6)
2(4)
1(2)
0(1)
-
High (7-9)
5(9)
3(7)
2(5)
1(3)
-
Very High (10-12)
6(12)
5(10)
3(8 )
2(5)
-
Legendary (13-15)
7(15)
6(13)
4(11)
3(7)
-
Near Epic (16-18)
8(18)
7(16)
5(14)
4(9)
-
Epic (19+)
9(20+)
8(18)
6(16)
5(11)
-
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Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

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Re: Suggestion: Realm Magic Update - Caster Level
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2010, 11:57:27 PM »
Playing along, for now, what do the target save against?

And how many spells pr. day would you use?

I'm assuming Rangers, Paladins are usually in the Skilled category, where a Bard would usually be in Expert and a single class Wizard or Cleric would be a Master.

And ofc. if you multiclass you will likely drop in proficiency if the new class does not grant the same caster level type.
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Offline X-Osoerde (Alan)

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Re: Suggestion: Realm Magic Update - Caster Level
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2010, 12:43:28 AM »
Playing along, for now, what do the target save against?
Why does this matter?  Has Bjorn ever asked you for your Fortitude Save Bonus? Or your Will save?

And how many spells pr. day would you use?
Use the appropiately class table and reference your current caster level

Arcane[Spontaneous] = Sorceror/Bard
Arcane[Formulaic] = Wizard/Magician
Divine[Spontaneous] = Cleric/Paladin
Divine[Formulaic] = Mystic (Sorceror)
Primordial[Spontaneous] =  Skald (Bard)
Primordial[Formulaic] = Druid/Ranger


I'm assuming Rangers, Paladins are usually in the Skilled category, where a Bard would usually be in Expert and a single class Wizard or Cleric would be a Master.

Rangers, Paladins are typically Proficient can reach at best.
Bards, Skalds are typically Expert can reach at best.
Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerors, Druids, etc can reach Master at best.

BUT remember, Mastery is rare.

But I think it depends on the sort of character that is being played.  I can easily imagine clerics of Cuiraecen fighting like warriors, having strategy/command, and casting magic as a secondary component.

And ofc. if you multiclass you will likely drop in proficiency if the new class does not grant the same caster level type.
Yes, that is the intention, but it is based on character concept as well.

A character that is mostly wizards but has a tidge of sorceror ability might not warrant dropping a proficiency level.  With a skill system, the emphasis becomes more about the character than cold-hard mechanics.

NOTE: Incidentally, actually fighting ability can also be translated into this system, to a degree, this is a side note though and not pertinent to this conversation.
Master = Fighter BAB + All appropiate feats and what not
Expert = Fighter BAB
Skilled = Cleric + appropiate feats and what not
Proficient = Cleric
Untrained = Wizard


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