Honest Dealings

[Silver House/ClDh (Bobby)]

I was just thinking about how to distinguish this from Bless Lands, and how to keep it from being something that's just routinely cast anywhere it's profitable or never cast at all, and that question combined in my head with Niels' comment about flavor options.  If we cast this as a spell that lets merchants/guilds take advantage of folks a bit, what if we make it reasonably profitable for the guilds, well worth arranging for, but reduce Prosperity by 1 in that province for each casting as the locals slowly start getting angry at being gouged?  Maybe it makes people a bit more gullible, maybe it just helps the guilders predict what will be in short supply so they can monopolize it, but it provides them with profits at a long-term cost.  So now the province becomes a sheep, not an orchard - a guild can either shear it every year or so, reaping profits then letting the prosperity recover, or they can run the place into the ground for several seasons in a row to rack up a significant war chest at the province's expense.  It'd add to the conflicts between landed rulers and guilders that seem to be a recurring theme here, which might appeal to our benevolent DMs, too - not only would the rulers be unhappy at having an unhappy province, if they can't stop the spell, they'll have to reduce taxes to compensate for the Prosperity losses.  What do you guys think?

[Yggdrasil (DM Andy)]

One thing that pops to my mind is that this region is infested with guilds for whom 'Honest Dealings' would be, at best, a very negotiable concept, and at worst absolutely inimical.  We might need to completely re-flavor that spell to suit the region.  I DO think it needs to be revised mechanically to be not-awful, as I did some serious number-crunching on it last game much like Tristan and came to similar conclusions, but its style just doesn't suit the area ATM either.

Honest does not necessarily mean nice.  If no-one can rely on a contract, people pay in lead coins, rotten food is passed off as fresh, flour mixed with stone dust, nags passed off as mares, etc then trade is crippled.  Individuals may suffer, but at domain level the people as a whole are winners, even the worst guild firmly believes that honouring contracts is imperative.

So please, don't get hung up on the name, we're role-players, we can rationalise anything.

[Silver House/ClDh (Bobby)]

It's less the name than the description: "Throughout the province trade is stimulated and supported by a number of divine blessings; all scales and weights bear true measure and in all business dealings parties negotiate in good faith, both seeking a deal. Tax collectors and other trade officials provide accurate and timely writs and assessments."  I understand your point, as well.  I just think that in this area, a somewhat different basic description would be appropriate, and since we're already working on the mechanics of it, we might as well look at the flavor.

[Yggdrasil (DM Andy)]

fair enough.

[NRCS/LN (Mark)]

Wasn't the cannon Honest Dealings spell a priest spell that HURT guild holdings.  Ie. Guild holdings only made a small percentage of income.  The tradeoff was espionage actions were at auto-fail in the province, so it had SOME upside?

Also....I object to the classification that this area is "overrun" by Saramites...we aren't pests after all. 

[Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)]

Vanilla Honest Dealings:
Lvl 3
Gold: 2GB
Regency 3rp/province
Target 1province + 1 per 2 caster levels beyond the minimum required.
Duration: One Domain turn + 1 round/lvl

This ceremony creates a widespread charm effect that magically guides a province's citizens toward honest and upright practices. In a province affected by this spell, agitate and espionage actions cannot succeed, diplomacy actions suffer a -4 penalty, and guild holdings are reduced 2 levels for  collection purposes. An individual who attempts to commit a crime or tell a lie while in the province must succeed a saving throw versus spell to do so.

[Stjordvik/Varri (Greg)]

Um, just my 2 cents, but I actually like the vanilla Spell and concept/description.  The effects can be quite useful if applied at the right time vs. what is trying to be countered.  I would keep it as is.

Perhaps work out the details and game balance aspects of the desired effects first, mechanics, etc., and then come up with a new name for the new spell.

[Dhoesone/FD_(Marco)]

Vanilla spell works well for me.

I suggest to create also a revers spell "Dishonest dealings"

[Yggdrasil (DM Andy)]

Vanilla spell works well for me.

I suggest to create also a revers spell "Dishonest dealings"

"corruption" would work well in that regard.

[Torele Anviras/TA (Niels)]

Um, just my 2 cents, but I actually like the vanilla Spell and concept/description.  The effects can be quite useful if applied at the right time vs. what is trying to be countered.  I would keep it as is.

Perhaps work out the details and game balance aspects of the desired effects first, mechanics, etc., and then come up with a new name for the new spell.

I like the vanilla version better too... Between Bless Province and Bless Holding, do we really need a specific way to bless Guilds?

For a game with Fog of War I think the vanilla version of the spell is due a hearty welcome back!

[Silver House/ClDh (Bobby)]

I like the vanilla version better too... Between Bless Province and Bless Holding, do we really need a specific way to bless Guilds?

For a game with Fog of War I think the vanilla version of the spell is due a hearty welcome back!

Hey, there's nothing wrong with the original concept.  I was mostly plinking at this from the perspectives of 1) creating more ways for the different holdings to interact and piss people off, and 2) Mark's temple of Sarimie, which I can see easily wanting a spell that boosts Guilds rather than other groups.  Hence providing a financial boost, not a holding boost (to avoid mimicking Bless Holding), and having it come at a cost to other groups, so that it creates 'fun' conflict rather than just providing Free Money! to them.  Really, when it comes down to it, the question is 'what do the casters want for themselves?'  Believe me, I plan to submit a few unique spell ideas to Matt and Andy for Clumine at some point here!