MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Yes but treating everyone as inferrior to you makes for lots of enemies unless everybody acts as true jerks. If but a minority acts like jerks they will get to be paria of sorts suffering in diplomatic dealings and forreign relations

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

Hehe, I see this post after I sent you Rashid's reply Andy.

And you confirm exactly the subtext that Rashid felt he was picking up... That if some deluded goblin shaman clings up a human or even another goblin, just for old times sake, the HA will be sweeping in with torches and burning the village to the ground.

Where did I say this?  If the typical goblin goes raiding he will get stomped - that's all.  Try to recall that the goblins were conquered only a few months ago - they still have millennia of seeing humans as prey to get over - and vice versa.  So yes the traditional goblin method of the clan hungers, the clan raids is going to get a likely belligerent response, and it may as you say lead to excessive response from the less disciplined types - which most certainly does not include the Aegis.  If the entire clan is following traditional goblins ways of raid, fight, recover, fight again they will see their warriors smashed by the Aegis, and be driven out - just as the Patriarch took the Sutren Hills by likely slaughtering its defenders and driving out those who refused to bow down, but the Aegis isn't going to just randomly start a slaughter for fun.

Please remember that goblins are not just humans with green skin - the link to Bjorn's description you provided should have made that clear. They are inherently evil - mercy is seen as weakness, laws as tools to protect the weak, neighbours as potential prey or rivals, etc, etc.  Let us not mention the demon worship and so on which turns disdain and distrust into hatred and intolerance.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

My word of wisdom of today would be to treat all regents in a similar manner. Just because you see them as further down the pecking order, they probably don't.

Oh indeed, the less the power the more tightly it is clutched.  No one is more self important than the tinpot dictator with an ounce of power (think traffic wardens).  But at the same time realpolitik rules and such people generally get very quiet around those far more powerful.  The Countess was not totally outclassed in rank, and so particularly on her own turf could, and should, demand respect, but the captain certainly was out of his league and knew it...

It is certainly wrong to say 'I am king/High Priest/etc therefore I am right', but it is not wrong to say 'I am worthy of respect/fear and even when wrong people should tread softly'.  Steering people around to your viewpoint is generally better than blatantly opposing them when they out rank you - at the very least you goad them into social disgrace and thus gain some social protection from their later wrath by being 'the reasonable one'.

Of course when players deal with their superiors (Avan , Boeruine, etc) they should remember the above doubly so - respect will be demanded and insolence punished one way or the other...

[X-Points East]

LG is no more good than NG or CG - and while paladins in particular will be extreme LG's, its better to represent alignment by a series of shifting focuses than a set of discrete blobs - a 'moderate' LG could be closer in alignment to a NG or LN or even true neutral than they might be to an extreme LG - think of it like a wheel.  The alignment determines what spoke you follow from the centre, not how far along the spoke you go.

Most people would be fairly middle-ish if mapped onto the wheel, and so they might dip from actions typical to one alignment to those typical to another often - a guy who hates mornings might wake up CE if the builders are at it at 6 in the morning after a long nights drinking, but may mellow to LG after a coffee and a back rub from his missus....

OoC:

If I am not mistaken, a single Change Alignment action, in RoE, can not effectuate a shift from LG to N:  two such actions are required; and, thus, the two alignments would not seem to be particularly adjacent.

[X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)]

Hehe, I see this post after I sent you Rashid's reply Andy.

And you confirm exactly the subtext that Rashid felt he was picking up... That if some deluded goblin shaman clings up a human or even another goblin, just for old times sake, the HA will be sweeping in with torches and burning the village to the ground.

Where did I say this?  If the typical goblin goes raiding he will get stomped - that's all.  Try to recall that the goblins were conquered only a few months ago - they still have millennia of seeing humans as prey to get over - and vice versa.  So yes the traditional goblin method of the clan hungers, the clan raids is going to get a likely belligerent response, and it may as you say lead to excessive response from the less disciplined types - which most certainly does not include the Aegis.  If the entire clan is following traditional goblins ways of raid, fight, recover, fight again they will see their warriors smashed by the Aegis, and be driven out - just as the Patriarch took the Sutren Hills by likely slaughtering its defenders and driving out those who refused to bow down, but the Aegis isn't going to just randomly start a slaughter for fun.

Please remember that goblins are not just humans with green skin - the link to Bjorn's description you provided should have made that clear. They are inherently evil - mercy is seen as weakness, laws as tools to protect the weak, neighbours as potential prey or rivals, etc, etc.  Let us not mention the demon worship and so on which turns disdain and distrust into hatred and intolerance.

Please find my reply to this here: http://roe.twilightpeaks.net/forum/index.php?topic=314.0

[X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)]

My word of wisdom of today would be to treat all regents in a similar manner. Just because you see them as further down the pecking order, they probably don't.

Oh indeed, the less the power the more tightly it is clutched.  No one is more self important than the tinpot dictator with an ounce of power (think traffic wardens).  But at the same time realpolitik rules and such people generally get very quiet around those far more powerful.  The Countess was not totally outclassed in rank, and so particularly on her own turf could, and should, demand respect, but the captain certainly was out of his league and knew it...

It is certainly wrong to say 'I am king/High Priest/etc therefore I am right', but it is not wrong to say 'I am worthy of respect/fear and even when wrong people should tread softly'.  Steering people around to your viewpoint is generally better than blatantly opposing them when they out rank you - at the very least you goad them into social disgrace and thus gain some social protection from their later wrath by being 'the reasonable one'.

Of course when players deal with their superiors (Avan , Boeruine, etc) they should remember the above doubly so - respect will be demanded and insolence punished one way or the other...

Am I the only one thinking that Baron Kaven outranks the Countess in this matter? Of course it is HER land, and so far he has shown HER respect. It is the soldiers and their response that ranks me, especially when the Baron states that he INTENDS to speak to her later. 
Both the Countess and the Baron serve the same man. Ilien and Medoere is both technically a part of Diemeds demesne, and thus, (especially when giving orders backed by the Archduke) it is assumable that people at the very least respond with confusion, hesitation etc. instead of going hostile.

Add to that, that the RCS holds almost half the alotted number of temples in the province, and you have a 44% probability (on average) that each guardsman acting in a hostile manner toward the head of the RCS is a Ruornite... And as a last addendum, the Baron also holds a fraction of the Law in the land (Not much, but then one ninth of 200.000 people is quite a bit, if you think in those lines). It just adds up to complete nonsense for me. And the countess is sure to hear for it.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

Well, the poor captain may just be in a really bad mood, or react to fear/unease with bluster and anger - and of course some people are just jerks.  Assuming that everyone ill be rational all of the time is not a wise strategy - consider the story of the scorpion and the fox...

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

I concur. The same btw. goes for PC's 

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

OoC:If I am not mistaken, a single Change Alignment action, in RoE, can not effectuate a shift from LG to N:  two such actions are required; and, thus, the two alignments would not seem to be particularly adjacent.

Well, draw the diagram - neutral is right in the middle, LG is part of the surrounding rim - human psychology is a study of a continuum not a series of discrete segments - a failing in the alignment system is in not looking at the concept of 'just about in this one' or 'some days I just wake up CE'.

How easy it is to change alignment depends on the relative size of the segments, if each neutral axis is a thin line then LG to CE could be a minor switch for someone very weakly aligned, if they are wide segments then it is highly unlikely that one would cross two boundaries at the same time.

[X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)]

OOC: DO + DM's family have been ill...

Hope you feel better soon, man.  We've been fighting colds and sore throats here, and half my office is out.  One of 'ems got mono, and another has been gone for two weeks with fever and vomiting, came back for 3 days, and left again with upper respiratory issues.  Apparently it's just that time of the year.   

[X-Points East]

Well, draw the diagram - neutral is right in the middle, LG is part of the surrounding rim - human psychology is a study of a continuum not a series of discrete segments - a failing in the alignment system is in not looking at the concept of 'just about in this one' or 'some days I just wake up CE'.

How easy it is to change alignment depends on the relative size of the segments, if each neutral axis is a thin line then LG to CE could be a minor switch for someone very weakly aligned, if they are wide segments then it is highly unlikely that one would cross two boundaries at the same time.

OoC:

Perhaps, in light of the Change Alignment rules, an alignment diagram for RoE might look thus . . .

LG	—	LN	—	LE
|		|		|
NG	—	TN	—	NE
|		|		|
CG	—	CN	—	CE

. . . with '—'-s and '|'-s representing possible single alignment shifts.  If so, LG would be one shift away from LN and NG; two shifts away from CG, LE, and TN; three shifts away from CN and NE; and four shifts away from CE, no?

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

I'd prefer to have alignment mechanics follow setting than the other way around - most major characters will be fairly solidly in an alignment so the difference is immaterial, but the mechanics do the setting a disservice if followed at present with their assumption that a switch in alignment must be from one mid-point to another - most changes would be gradual and involve slipping from 'weak A' to 'weak B'.

In my view the alignment system in general is one of the weaker areas of the mechanics that should have been jettisoned several editions ago - how likely is it that most 'evil' beings think that they are 'wrong' - by the moral standards of a 'good' person the morality followed by the 'evil' character is wrong, but the evil person thinks likewise of the good person.  Very few 'evil' people approach morality in the 'I choose to be a negative good person and thus prove my contempt for society', rather, they feel their morality is superior and that mercy, charity, etc are vices not virtues.

And let us not discuss the idiocy of the true neutral 'balance' arguments, or the differing interpretations of law and chaos...

[X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)]

[OOC: If my fellow adventures do not wish to answer before having their turn back from DM I can understand.
However an OOC post here or in mirror would be helpfull for me to understand where I stand in regard to having my posts in this thread ignored by my fellow adventures for a couple of weeks.]

Chill, Kasper.  Where you stand is in an adventure that's ended.  Bjorn's given us a wrap-up, the Countess is unlikely to feel any need to explain to you how she will deal with pirates in her own lands(especially as she's made it clear she intends for the RCS to handle future Shadow matters), and the new turn is close to starting.  If you want to go after the Wraiths for a second try, talk to the RCS in the new season and arrange a new adventure - you can do that in dispatches.  This particular one is wrapped up, and getting hostile and snippy isn't going to do anything but irritate people. 

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

No hostility intended but I think I still have not gotten into the modus operandi for RoE II

OOC Is the adventure finished or do we get to settle what happend to the prisoners and what informations can be learned from them?

I was back then informed adventure was not ended. Now Bjørn have however posted that adventure have ended and that we are each allowed to make one last post.


This game is my second type of PBeM ever. But for RoE II I have only been playing TI3 on FFG's forum and lately on TI3 wiki forums. I have done that for 4+ years every day. There 30+ games run all the time and people are usually kicked from game after 3+ days of absence without notice. So I guess I am kind of drilled into an all together different pace and approach than the one we use in RoE II. I am still trying to adjust but apparently unsuccessfully.


Regarding asking the Countess about the pirates I too expect no answer from her but ever since she made a point of kicking Archduke Osoer because she was not involved prior to adventure I have been doing my best to brown-nose her to ensure she does not actively hinder us.

[X-DM Jon]

 It's always been a problem that players don't necessarily answer for quite a while - if at all. Take that into account and take nothing personal, then you'll quickly get used to the strange pace of Pbem's. Things happen in bouts of action and then move at a snail's pace. RL demands it must be so.


The adventure is still open for one last remark and from there you can take it to the dispatches.