Author Topic: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien  (Read 31057 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

  • Former players
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 913
  • Regency: 42
  • Gender: Male
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2009, 12:08:32 AM »
Hey! - Goblins are not monsters. And I'm not only saying that because I'm an idiot with 50.000 of them in my garden!  ;D

Check out this post: http://ruinsofempire.twilightpeaks.net/forums/index.php?topic=120.0

Now if your character IC believes they are nothing but little monsters, sure go ahead.  :)

Many Anuireans readily place goblins in the category 'irredeemable monsters', which explains a lot of heinous acts against goblins over the years. Acts that the actor feels are both just and good, perhaps even temple approved (slay al the goblins - spare no one).

The fact though is that murdering goblins is no good act. Slaughtering goblin women and children definitely evil. Good and evil are not relative, and even when justified evil act are...evil.

Now, the murder of goblins might serve some greater purpose and actually save human lives later on (goblins definitely are not do-gooders), but the actual murder of them is not good (at best) and most likely quite evil.

Oh I'm fairly sure that wholesale genocide of pretty much anything comes under the 'if you are really lucky you might get it counted as evil but necessary category - but probably not'.  Forced relocations (ethnic cleansing in modern parlance) with bloodshed restricted to combatants as far as possible (an elastic term) and in response to ongoing raids and other provocations however?  Surely the evil thing is to sit by and do nothing while the goblins raid freely?

So by all means Elenie can argue that the goblins can live as long as they behave themselves, the Aegis will simply wait for the goblins to (inevitably in their view) betray the Elenien trust and then act (downside of being lawful good and serving Haelyn, if a noble really want to do something you think is stupid you let him), but from reading the post Neils linked if someone is going to try and argue that goblins are not a race wedded to evil that worships demons they are going to struggle  :)


As for the Countess, she should remember that pride cuts both ways - only a foolishly proud person picks a fight with major dignitaries over a minor point of protocol - the captain should, in my view have been less 'do as I say scum' and more 'with respects your worships, I am but a humble soldier sworn to loyalty given orders - pray accept my duty to follow them as best I can.  My orders, give to me by my lawful commander, are merely to escort the prisoners to the castle to ensure they pose no threat to the city and ask of your honoured selves that you discuss their disposal on sundry other matters with the countess.  Since your honour demands they stay in your care milord, might I request that you lead us to the castle and oversee the guard - no doubt the honoured pontiff will swiftly satisfy the countesses concerns over the safety of her citizens, etc, etc' - the same actual command, but far more likely to succeed and avoid causing offence.

From a purely pragmatic point the countess sending out her men with orders to kick the party around and treat them like peasants was dim - yes she can slaughter the PCs - but what does she expect to occur in the coming months?  She is a person of pride and power - but so are they.  The key point to remember in such case is that you never argue in front of the minions and you never contradict each other - face can thus be saved and honour salved on both sides without severe misfortune.

As it is tired, wounded, party members treated with contempt and disrespect by someone their utter social inferior (a mere captain orders the Pontiff, dreaded Swordmage, various other dignitaries about like criminals?  Mook, thy name be Captain Deathwish) who were, unsurprisingly, offended by the countesses' treatment - she could easily have 'ignored' the offence publicly and contacted the PCs afterwards explaining the offence given, the way her authority was undermined, the harm caused by their lack of consideration etc etc - and wound up with them owing her, instead of making them enemies.

One wonders if the countess will consider bullying the party at blade point will be rewarded when the wraiths rise to the slaughter in the months to come.  I expect she will (honest guv'nor) be shocked and appalled at her captains acts (subtext, I proved I have teeth, don't try my patience again) and grateful in the extreme (subtext, oh my god what did I do, have a token to see that I recognise the hole I dug myself into) for your aid, may we meet under better circumstances in the months to come (subtext, you turn up and scare the crap out of everyone, we almost had city wide riots with people terrified that wraiths would pour from the sewers any moment, next time call me and we can keep it quiet!), etc, etc.

not of course that the nobility is ever likely to be rational when it comes to pride - indeed they often start from the premise 'I am my pride and should it be offended then I am nothing if I do not defend it' - but they are also prone to being very practical...
Robhan Khaiarén
High Marshal of Haelyn's Aegis
Work hard, walk with honour, be justly rewarded

Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

  • Former players
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 948
  • Regency: 19
  • Gender: Male
  • Formerly Star of the East
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2009, 12:44:25 AM »
Hehe, I see this post after I sent you Rashid's reply Andy.

And you confirm exactly the subtext that Rashid felt he was picking up... That if some deluded goblin shaman clings up a human or even another goblin, just for old times sake, the HA will be sweeping in with torches and burning the village to the ground.

As Lawful Neutral, the Law is more important than good or evil. The worship of Azrai is illegal and punishable in itself, murder is illegal too, so the shaman would be picked up, as quietly as possible, and then tried for his crimes and be slandered as a backward and twisted evil that has been put to the righteous sword of Law.

Slavery is not legal in Elinie, but indentured servitude is. And the right of the local lord probably extends to placing restrictions on the free movement of the peasants, so the actual change in status for the former slaves in Sutren Hills is likely very, very gradual and will not take full effect for years to come.

However, anyone with an ear to the ground in Sutren Hills, will know that goblins are offered schooling and jobs on equal terms with equally skilled humans. Indeed, officials are looking for goblins with exceptionally compliant personalities (LN/(+LG but daamn they are probably rare) and leadership skills and fast-tracking them to positions of local authority.

I am certain that the goblins will soon figure out how to restrict their mischief to socially accepted ways of backstabbing. Just like the rest of Anuire.
Formerly: His Grace, Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta, Last Imperial Duke of the Eastern Marches, Duke of Elinie, Master of Sutren Hills, Holy Paladin of Avanalae, Light of Reason.

Offline X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)

  • Sovereign
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.607
  • Regency: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Pontiff Wallac Isilviere, High Prefect of the IHH
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2009, 12:53:18 AM »
Yes that is if you are right they are not evil by nature.

But I would try re-reading status report for turn 61 one paying special attention to goblins. I note your tamed goblins cooperate with the wild goblin tribes. Wonder what they do cooperate over? I doubt the cooperation is about being nice and goofy like.

Let us know when you have learned the error of your way and want us to come and rescue your human inhabitants or those that are left. I believe you miss your army yes? Do the goblin know that?
His Holiness Wallac Isilviere, Pontiff of All Anuire, High Prefect of the Impregnable Heart of Haelyn

Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

  • Former players
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 948
  • Regency: 19
  • Gender: Male
  • Formerly Star of the East
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2009, 12:59:32 AM »
Ohoho, I think I'll quickly point out that my post above is OOC, and this thread is OOC.

The Pontiff is more than welcome to send a letter to Rashid, expressing his concerns on governance of goblins.  :)

But I think this topic should either have its own thread or we should leave the subject for now, as we are sorta derailing the thread here. - Though, the adventure is nearly concluded.
Formerly: His Grace, Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta, Last Imperial Duke of the Eastern Marches, Duke of Elinie, Master of Sutren Hills, Holy Paladin of Avanalae, Light of Reason.

Offline X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)

  • Former players
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 950
  • Regency: 22
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2009, 09:46:11 AM »
Ohoho, I think I'll quickly point out that my post above is OOC, and this thread is OOC.

The Pontiff is more than welcome to send a letter to Rashid, expressing his concerns on governance of goblins.  :)

But I think this topic should either have its own thread or we should leave the subject for now, as we are sorta derailing the thread here. - Though, the adventure is nearly concluded.

Derail all you please. This is an ooc thread. If you feel like taking it into another topic, be my guest. I am certain there's much to discuss, but as long as the ooc stuff stays ooc, I don't see why anyone would trouble you for derailing :)

P.S.
I agree with everything Andy just said. Actually, his words sums up my thoughts on the matter rather nicely. The Baron offered to pay reparations later (ie. visit the countess and explains his actions) but his tired bones and his wounded pride made him say some things that sparked the whole situation even further.

Needless to say, the Countess and the Baron need to talk abit, to clear the air between them.  :D
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 09:52:29 AM by Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten) »

Offline X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)

  • Sovereign
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.607
  • Regency: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Pontiff Wallac Isilviere, High Prefect of the IHH
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2009, 09:57:24 AM »
I believe the good Baron is not the only one needing to straigthen things out with the Countess  ::)

I too found myself agreeing with Andy. I guess I will tread very carefull
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 02:17:31 PM by IHH/Pontiff Wallac Isilviere (Kasper) »
His Holiness Wallac Isilviere, Pontiff of All Anuire, High Prefect of the Impregnable Heart of Haelyn

Offline X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)

  • Former players
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 639
  • Regency: 33
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2009, 01:38:00 PM »
I'm just amused that there's apparently such a fine line between "Protect the people of Ilien!" and "Burn down the City of Ilien!"  I had no idea it was so easy to go from one to the next.  :D

Offline X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)

  • Sovereign
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.607
  • Regency: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Pontiff Wallac Isilviere, High Prefect of the IHH
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2009, 01:56:53 PM »
I believe the people of Ilien appreciate that someone tries to remove what threats their security.
Regarding the Countess It's more a matter of the Countess demonstrating she is in charge of Ilien and the she calls the shots around here. In Ilien treat her as an emperor or regret. Apparently those that do not fit in her perception of the hierarchy, with her on top possible with Duke of Diemed slightly above her, risk all kinds of enforced rectification.
I for one will tread very lightly when dealing with her on her home turf.

With her apparent attitude I believe it’s quite possible she never leaves her little kingdom but stay home and exercise her power safely behind the walls of her castle.
His Holiness Wallac Isilviere, Pontiff of All Anuire, High Prefect of the Impregnable Heart of Haelyn

Offline X-MOC/Leman States (Even)

  • Ser Engineer
  • Former players
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 501
  • Regency: 16
  • Patriarch Leman States
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2009, 02:33:01 PM »
I believe the people of Ilien appreciate that someone tries to remove what threats their security.
Regarding the Countess It's more a matter of the Countess demonstrating she is in charge of Ilien and the she calls the shots around here. In Ilien treat her as an emperor or regret. Apparently those that do not fit in her perception of the hierarchy, with her on top possible with Duke of Diemed slightly above her, risk all kinds of enforced rectification.
I for one will tread very lightly when dealing with her on her home turf.

My word of wisdom of today would be to treat all regents in a similar manner. Just because you see them as further down the pecking order, they probably don't.
"We are RuinsofEmpire now, and when we act, we create our own reality."

Offline X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)

  • Sovereign
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.607
  • Regency: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Pontiff Wallac Isilviere, High Prefect of the IHH
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2009, 02:38:07 PM »
I do not intend to treat those below me in the hierarchy as the Countess do exercising her power but I will take heed of your words and step very carefully until knowing how a sovereign perceives the respect they are due to show.

The Countess certainly live up to “'I am my pride”
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 02:40:26 PM by IHH/Pontiff Wallac Isilviere (Kasper) »
His Holiness Wallac Isilviere, Pontiff of All Anuire, High Prefect of the Impregnable Heart of Haelyn

Offline X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)

  • Former players
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 950
  • Regency: 22
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2009, 02:40:47 PM »

My word of wisdom of today would be to treat all regents in a similar manner. Just because you see them as further down the pecking order, they probably don't.

So, would you have us to treat every man as if he was of high nobility? I disagree... Personally I believe it can be just as insulting to people if you overplay your hand, and treat them higher than what their station might warrant. That could be seen as a patronizing, cruel play and biting sarcasm.

If the Archduke treated a Merchant as he would a lord, he would loose much prestige in my eyes. People might call him soft or insecure. Granted, he might just wish to be nice, but to all appearances he would be doting on someone waay below his station. That might insult a Count watching from the sideline, as he would then believe himself of equal station with the merchant in the Archdukes eyes.

Be polite, no doubt you get far by that, but diplomacy was never an easy game, so if you want to get ahead, know your opponent and treat him with the *propper* amount of respect and dignity. No more, no less.... unless you want to brownnose or start a shouting match. 

Offline X-MOC/Leman States (Even)

  • Ser Engineer
  • Former players
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 501
  • Regency: 16
  • Patriarch Leman States
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2009, 02:51:44 PM »
So, would you have us to treat every man as if he was of high nobility?

No, and would never argue that. I was just trying to chime in with some advice after seeing (the all too common) problem of players assuming they're always right, and everybody else are (allow me to exagerate, slightly) insignificant in comparison.
"We are RuinsofEmpire now, and when we act, we create our own reality."

Offline X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)

  • Former players
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 950
  • Regency: 22
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #87 on: January 23, 2009, 02:59:24 PM »
So, would you have us to treat every man as if he was of high nobility?

No, and would never argue that. I was just trying to chime in with some advice after seeing (the all too common) problem of players assuming they're always right, and everybody else are (allow me to exagerate, slightly) insignificant in comparison.

Heh, that was perhaps an exageration from my side as well. But it's said that exagerations promote understanding :D
I very seldom find myself in a situation where i believe myself right. But the example in the Wraith adventure is one of the few, where I actually believed that I could get away with pulling rank - both the Countess' and my liege lords rank, as well as state faith. :)
I'm not sure how true to our world history RoE keeps itself when concerning nobility, clergy and the liberties they can and may take. Thus I may have jumped to some conclusions that differ from how the game sees things (I trying some old school medieval clergy intimidation in the lines of "you will burn in the seventh circle of hell if you do this", and many games having a slightly different view on such stuff, due to our modern thinking, the implementation of magic and the likes.)

I will be scrutinizing various texts written for RoE I & II over the next few weeks, but unfortunately didn't have the time to do so in regards to this adventures (Every time I wrote up a post, I should actually have been working on a paper... this post included :D )

Offline X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)

  • Sovereign
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.607
  • Regency: 18
  • Gender: Male
  • Pontiff Wallac Isilviere, High Prefect of the IHH
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #88 on: January 23, 2009, 03:01:37 PM »
So, would you have us to treat every man as if he was of high nobility?

No, and would never argue that. I was just trying to chime in with some advice after seeing (the all too common) problem of players assuming they're always right, and everybody else are (allow me to exagerate, slightly) insignificant in comparison.

I believe that in this case those who are perceived as insignificant in comparison was all but the Countess herself, or at the very least the participants of the adventure.

I will try to get to understand the enviroment of RoE better than I apparently do now
« Last Edit: January 23, 2009, 03:03:32 PM by IHH/Pontiff Wallac Isilviere (Kasper) »
His Holiness Wallac Isilviere, Pontiff of All Anuire, High Prefect of the Impregnable Heart of Haelyn

Offline X-MOC/Leman States (Even)

  • Ser Engineer
  • Former players
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 501
  • Regency: 16
  • Patriarch Leman States
Re: MIRROR - The Wraiths of Ilien
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2009, 06:36:31 PM »
I very seldom find myself in a situation where i believe myself right. But the example in the Wraith adventure is one of the few, where I actually believed that I could get away with pulling rank - both the Countess' and my liege lords rank, as well as state faith. :)

My point exactly. You tried to pull rank, and as you say, you saw yourself as the superior in the situation. What I find amusing is that people are surprised when the other part in the encounter don't see it the same way.

I'm not arguing for growelling or never using ones sueprior position. Just that people shouldn't throw a fit when it doesn't go all smoothly. As I said, if you keep in your mind that people are likely to feel superior to you (whether rightly or not), these things shouldn't come as a nasty surprise.
"We are RuinsofEmpire now, and when we act, we create our own reality."