Author Topic: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn  (Read 17848 times)

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Offline Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2013, 02:05:39 AM »

OoC:

Here follows a quote from Regent Guide v.3.5 Draft 2.25 (italics in original):  "Alternatively the DM can set Large size as one greater than your BS. Huge would then be your BS +40."  This quoted passage is a clear statement with an apparent meaning.  However, the clear statement is succeeded by text, which can be interpreted in multiple ways and the meaning of which is not apparent.  For reference, here follows the succeeding text in the same Draft 2.25 (italics in original):  "Small and tiny are unchanged; the only effect of a strong bloodline is increasing the penalty threshold."  Perhaps the succeeding text indicates, explanatorily, how to treat domains, with levels under bloodline-score-plus-one; or perhaps the succeeding text indicates that the bloodline-score-plus-one rule only takes effect above some number of levels.  In the absence of clarity with respect to the succeeding text, though, at least the initially quoted passage (to repeat, "Alternatively the DM can set Large size as one greater than your BS. Huge would then be your BS +40.") has an apparent meaning, in and of itself.



I think the problem is how you think vs how I think.

If I wrote this statement: "Joe always eat all his bananas. On Wednesdays Joe gives a banana to his wife."
 
I would read the second line as an exception to the first. Whereas I think you would reason that he gives someone else's banana to his wife each Wednesday.

If seen with purely mathematical logic, the second way of looking at it would have more merit. But if looking at it as how humans in general communicate, then the first way of looking at it would have more merit.(IMO)

So the question is: Was the rules written as a document strictly adhering to mathematical logic?
Answer: No.
Reason: Just look at how prosperity and stability are defined! 
Thuriene Donalls.
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Offline Wanderer (Garth)

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2013, 03:04:03 AM »
I think there is a bit of ambiguity on this one.

I was discussing it with Brandon and I identified about 3 ways to interpret the effects.

Offline Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2013, 04:52:12 AM »
Yes. It can be read in several different ways. So the question is in what way it is supposed to make sense.

My point is that when clarity is missing it makes most sense to interpret the rules from a game balancing point of view rather than using mathematical logic to determine which sentence has most merit.

So the discussion ought to revolve around how the different interpretations would affect game ballance rather than witch sentence the Norwegian author managed to write so it had a clear meaning in English.
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Offline Wanderer (Garth)

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2013, 05:29:55 AM »
Below is my preferable reading of the rule:
I read the penalty threshold as being the line between 60 and 61, when you get to the point where you have a penalty.
The effect of a strong bloodline is a greater threshold before a penalty.
Tiny and small stay the same, but it is silent on medium domain sizes.
I don't think that should mean medium size is skipped altogether.
I think that the rule is only intended to benefit a stronger bloodline, and not hinder anything else.
I think that it is only applicable for regents with a bloodline score in excess of 60.

Stability is huge.  It affects so many aspects of the game.  I don't think this was intended to bring upon more penalties.

By the way, Bjorn writes well in English.   :D

Offline Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2013, 07:30:01 AM »
Yeah he does.

I think that your preferred reading is valid as well, and actually prefer it over my own interpretation.

But people with a high BS have the bonus of being able to collect lots of regency already. In RoEII I tried to increase my BS as much as possible because the benefit IMO was worth the effort. To tie stability to BS would IMO make it so powerful that it would move from something I would do whenever possible to something I would feel I needed to do every turn. Is that desirable?

I think the 2.25 rules work best without the option to make domain size dependent of the BS of the regent.
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Offline Yggdrasil (DM Andy)

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2013, 09:10:34 PM »
But people with a high BS have the bonus of being able to collect lots of regency already. In RoEII I tried to increase my BS as much as possible because the benefit IMO was worth the effort. To tie stability to BS would IMO make it so powerful that it would move from something I would do whenever possible to something I would feel I needed to do every turn. Is that desirable?

I'm not sure I agree with the outcome, firstly a domain of 60 is pretty big (although the P&H for turn 1 shows 5 players are at it most are well short), secondly you can sidestep the stability penalty by use of vassals.  So it could be argued that the mechanic is designed to drive creation / maintenance of vassals rather than encouraging high bloodline - getting most bloodlines up towards 60 would in practice be extra-ordinarily expensive, it would be much more cost effective for Joe with bloodline 30 or 40 to spin off a minor vassal or two when his domain grew to 60 than to spend 20 turns or so of regency income solely on raising his bloodline.
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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2013, 09:25:36 PM »
Again, I don't like rules whose purpose is to artificially force players to play one particular way. The advantages of having vassals are both many and manifest, if a player is either so unperceptive as to not see them, or so unwise as to ignore them, then let him suffer for that failing, but there is no need for a irrational rule designed to make him do so.
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Offline Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2013, 01:54:16 AM »
But people with a high BS have the bonus of being able to collect lots of regency already. In RoEII I tried to increase my BS as much as possible because the benefit IMO was worth the effort. To tie stability to BS would IMO make it so powerful that it would move from something I would do whenever possible to something I would feel I needed to do every turn. Is that desirable?

I'm not sure I agree with the outcome, firstly a domain of 60 is pretty big (although the P&H for turn 1 shows 5 players are at it most are well short), secondly you can sidestep the stability penalty by use of vassals.  So it could be argued that the mechanic is designed to drive creation / maintenance of vassals rather than encouraging high bloodline - getting most bloodlines up towards 60 would in practice be extra-ordinarily expensive, it would be much more cost effective for Joe with bloodline 30 or 40 to spin off a minor vassal or two when his domain grew to 60 than to spend 20 turns or so of regency income solely on raising his bloodline.

You are probably right that in this setting you would hardly see people invest that much regency on BS since we won't have such big economies as some realms had in RoEII. But there is still a huge difference between looking at a domain at the beginning at a campaign and noting that only few will be affected in the start of the game, to knowing how the holdings are divided ten turns into the game. And spinning of a vassal, while keeping your stability up, will cost you GB income, and you are not likely to gain more than a few RP (and hopefully a somewhat loyal ally)

I like the limit of 60 better than the limit of 40, and don't like Brandon's reading at all. 60 is large enough that most regents won't be bothered by it. 40 will hit some, and since you likely drop from +1 to -1 stability then it stand to reason that you would try to circumvent the penalty, either by increasing your bloodline or by creating a vassal... And yes, creating a vassal first would be fastest in almost all cases.

But as soon as your RP income is larger than your BS, and if you have more holding levels than BS, then increasing BS is a sure way to more power. Linking BS to stability will then make it a sure way to keep your domain effective while granting you extra resources to do your actions. It is a double bonus: no penalties and RP to use in influence.
Vassals come with the risk of rebellion, they have their own agendas and they cost you money. The risk you incur by increasing your BS is next to none, if you have saved up a regency buffer.

Yes, there will always be faster ways to amass power, but IMO none will be at as low risk as just increasing BS to gain higher regency and offset negative stability modifiers for guilds and landed rulers.

Since wizard and temple domains have spells as well as normal actions to use their regency on, I see the variant as a "hidden bonus" to domains that doesn't cast realm magic, as they will be more likely to benefit.

I know that, in effect, linking BS to stability creates options for keeping your stability high.. A purely static border for domain size only foster vassals, whereas a dynamic border linked to BS gives the choice of increasing BS. But the option is only available to the few, and as such has the potential to be a game balance breaking option.

I wouldn't object Garth's reading of the variant being implemented. Only because, as you note yourself, there will be few if any who are affected by it.

But still, I would like the DM's to note that by linking stability to BS we give an extra option to those few lucky realms who are large enough.
And ask if it isn't better to have a system that doesn't link stability to BS and IMO is more fair for all?

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Offline X-Points East

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Re: Stability & Dynamic Domain Size
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2013, 12:06:14 AM »


OoC:

Suggestion:

Stability & Dynamic Domain Size

TINY — relevant levels less than or equal to 25% of regent's bloodline score
SMALL — relevant levels greater than 25% and less than or equal to 75% of regent's bloodline score
MEDIUM — relevant levels greater than 75% and less than or equal to 150% of regent's bloodline score
LARGE — relevant levels greater than 150% and less than or equal to 250% of regent's bloodline score
HUGE — relevant levels greater than 250% of regent's bloodline score

[[[Note:  In this context, province, law, manor, temple, guild, and source levels are relevant, whilst trade levels are irrelevant.]]]

Example:  A domain, whose regent has a bloodline score of 20, is tiny with 0-5 relevant levels; small with 6-15 relevant levels; medium with 16-30 relevant levels; large with 31-50 relevant levels; and huge with 51+ relevant levels.

Example:  A domain, whose regent has a bloodline score of 40, is tiny with 0-10 relevant levels; small with 11-30 relevant levels; medium with 31-60 relevant levels; large with 61-100 relevant levels; and huge with 101+ relevant levels.

Example:  A domain, whose regent has a bloodline score of 60, is tiny with 0-15 relevant levels; small with 16-45 relevant levels; medium with 46-90 relevant levels; large with 91-150 relevant levels; and huge with 151+ relevant levels.




OoC:

A related static option:  tiny with 0-10 relevant levels; small with 11-30 relevant levels; medium with 31-60 relevant levels; large with 61-100 relevant levels; and huge with 101+ relevant levels.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 07:58:10 AM by X-Points East »

Offline Ruideside/OM (RP)

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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2013, 01:50:25 AM »
Oh God, are you really trying to resurrect this?
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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2013, 09:00:24 AM »
Oh God, are you really trying to resurrect this?

@RP: You do not have to comment on everything.

@In general: A golden rule is that once the horse has been beaten to death it's OK to stop spanking it.

As you've already pointed out: The advantages of having vassals are many and manifest. I agree completely. That the majority of players seem to have great issues with having vassals - let alone being vassals themselves - is something that can't be remedied by any amount of rules. It's just bad role-playing on the part of those players.

The proposed division of domains into sizes was prompted by the need to help explain why a small dynamic domain might have a chance of getting set up and prospering in the first place. You see them throughout Cerilia - there aren't very many, but there a few - yet there is no logical explanation as to how they can continue to exist (and most of them don't if they get in the way of PC domain). Even role-playing only goes so far.

So the Domain Size rule will remain, probably as an optional rule. The exact formula is still up in the air, but it will be something simple (probably related to domain power).
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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2013, 02:23:42 PM »
That's a mistake.
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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2013, 08:57:42 PM »
What is happening here is that unnecessary and bad rules are being used to address some poor role-playing, which is actually being brought about by bad DMing.

If the DM is doing his/her job right, then the players will find themselves forced by circumstances to start making some vassals, either that or their realms will get swallowed up by their more sensible neighbours.

The same thing applies to those players who want to grab all the holdings of every type for themselves - if the DM is doing his job right, then they will either go down in flames or find themselves realizing that they actually would like to have a powerful priest controlling some of those temple holdings the next time a plague comes a-ravaging through his lands, or that it would be handy if all those rich guilders didn't hate him the next time he finds himself with a little temporary cash flow problem.

If you find yourself in a situation where the players all have these monolithic realms and they are not struggling desperately to hold them together, then you need look no further than the mirror to see the source of the problem. What you don't need is an illogical and irrational rule to punish the players for doing things which you as the DM should be seizing upon as weaknesses for you to exploit.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 08:59:33 PM by Ruideside/OM (RP) »
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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2013, 09:22:02 PM »
And furthermore, the issues that are being addressed all stem from the insistence that it is the domain and not the regent that is being played - that is the source of the pressure to not role play well, because with the focus on the domain rather than on the regent, there is no impetus to role play well, as there is no actual role to play - I mean think about it - how does one play the role of a faceless bureaucracy running a kingdom?

By returning the emphasis of the game back to it's proper place - the regents themselves and the interplay of their personalities, then the pressure to not role play is not only removed, but it is reversed - the pressure is now to role play well. The question is no longer "What, based on a study of the rules and my calculation of the odds is the best course of action?" to "What would a powerful wizard who hates being distracted from his arcane research do to handle this situation?", or What would Lord Rashnbold do when confronted with the opposition of the peasants?".

By making this one simple change in emphasis, every domain now becomes very different in the way it approaches every single problem, no two domains will approach the same situation the same way.
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Re: Chapter 4: The Domain Turn
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2013, 09:52:50 PM »
This sounds pretty much like saying any role-playing system is faulty for being a system when role-playing should be in focus? Surely you can both have a system AND role-play well? A system that's hopefully pretty robust and consistent. And a DM/players who know what role-playing is and act accordingly. I can't seem to grasp the problems you envision.

Btw: None of the situations you describe are common in my games. This is simply not the place where you find that sort of players. The rules don't reward that kind of play - and I as a DM certainly do not reward it IC.
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