Twilightpeaks.net
TP.net => The Great Beyond (OOC) => : X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten) January 15, 2009, 02:16:32 PM
-
I don't know if Bjørn want's to start us, but I thought what the heck, and posted a little introduction to Kaven and his men.
If it's out of place, just move it or delete it. :)
- Thorsten
Edit:
Oh, and I just wan't to say:
"Birthright, how I've missed suckling at your imaginary teat!"
-
Personally I think, having a hard time holding my horses allready, better not to start the ride before Bjørn gives us the signal ;)
That said I have no problem with your post there
Selfcontroll failing I begin writing a prelude to The Wraiths of Ilien. As with Thorstens post feel free to move or delete and giving the length of mine modify it to suit your perception of the adventure
-
You're quite welcome. Obviously you should focus towards an actual point where the adventure may commence and then write no more, while you await Bjørn's post.
F.ex. at the point when you actually enter the catacombs/sewers.
-
Yes entering the sewers we should stop for Bjørn to take charge.
Furthermore I am wondering if I could just include the Swordmage and Tristand Bellamie in our descriptions and so march to the entrance in a group
-
Sure, adventures demand active players and won't wait for the tardy.
-
Whats the protocol for modifying forum posts in an adventure after a new post have been made? To be more precise missing words and grammar.
like chaning "man" to "men", deleting a "the" to many and such?
-
After reading Bjorn's post -- I am kinda happy I didn't go.
I personally would have been advocating falling back at the moment to get additional resources.
Undead which use tactics are never good...
-
Whats the protocol for modifying forum posts in an adventure after a new post have been made? To be more precise missing words and grammar.
like chaning "man" to "men", deleting a "the" to many and such?
No problem with cosmetic changes, make an "edit" note if you change something that may have a game impact - and only if others haven't posted something afterwards that depended on what you said. (Like I wrote "I go left" but meant "I go right" :)
-
Now things become...difficult...so far you have faced enemies of flesh and blood (dead mind you, and suffused with dark power, but still) and no wraiths at all. That suddenly changes - and it is not a change for good.
Intellectually you know that the wraiths are incorporeal. But what does that really mean? Mean when you are fighting them down in the dark tunnels beneath the earth, fighting them on their own turf?
It means they can attack you as they please - suddenly appearing from nowhere, a wall or a ceiling, completely without sound, a barely-seen flicker of evil that rips the life from those that they touch.
I doesn't mean you are helpless before their onslaught; you have mages among your numbers, and clerics of great faith. But the creatures attack with so little warning that for you to survive you must gather closely together and be constantly alert. Which has the secondary effect of slowing you down to a crawl.
You've only lost a few more men, but moral is no longer good; and you're huddled together in a dense knot that can't more very quickly...and somewhere above you the sun is slowly descending to earth...
[OOC: A few questions of mine:
1) Have we killed one or more Wraiths? If we have do we have a number of how many we have killed?
2) Regarding warning; for the purpose of exactly not to be completely taken ofguard by the incorperal undeads we have brought a couple of caged rats. The point is that when the wraiths come within 30 feet as per "Unnatural Aura (Su)
Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range. ". Bjørn does this apply in RoE and if it does will it help us.
3) Can a player (in this case Thorsten) decide to turn the direction - e.i. decide that the center of evil is not where we have been moving to all along, as per divination and as decided by bjørn?
4) Do we have any idea of wether or not we are getting closer to their lair]
-
[OOC: A few questions of mine:
1) Have we killed one or more Wraiths? If we have do we have a number of how many we have killed?
2) Regarding warning; for the purpose of exactly not to be completely taken ofguard by the incorperal undeads we have brought a couple of caged rats. The point is that when the wraiths come within 30 feet as per "Unnatural Aura (Su)
Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range. ". Bjørn does this apply in RoE and if it does will it help us.
3) Can a player (in this case Thorsten) decide to turn the direction - e.i. decide that the center of evil is not where we have been moving to all along, as per divination and as decided by bjørn?
4) Do we have any idea of wether or not we are getting closer to their lair]
Ooc: 30 feet is less than 10 meters and the range of a charge move is 60 feet for a human, 120 for a flying wraith. Not much of a warning even if you know where they come from (ie. they aren't comming from the wall, floor and ceiling).
As to an idea, both Kaven and the Patriarch seem convinced of their words, the Baron clearly trusting the Patriarchs feelings on the matter.
-
I assume it's Jon who moved the two posts above from the adventure thread and so Bjørn have not read my questions. Shall I write them specifically to him or assume he read this tread as well
-
Just wondering how the Wraiths incorporeal ability work. I have copypasted this from here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype
Not sure if this is how our wraiths ability in RoE work though. Bjørn could you please enlight me? I am not trying to tell you how it should be but rather to ajust my own assumptions to match yours as to avoid misunderstandings on my part.
"An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect. "
-
I assume it's Jon who moved the two posts above from the adventure thread and so Bjørn have not read my questions. Shall I write them specifically to him or assume he read this tread as well
Always a good idea to write him directly. And it's always a good idea to take the vanilla rules as a basis, but expect the RoE version to be nastier.
-
I assume it's Jon who moved the two posts above from the adventure thread and so Bjørn have not read my questions. Shall I write them specifically to him or assume he read this tread as well
Jon did so partially at my resquest, I believe. As you see already, there is more ooc chatter, than IC, and to have it mixed (in my oppinion) really disrupts the flow of the tale (which I think is a shame, as I really love when people post IC). And since there already was an ooc thread on the subject, why not use that (or mail).
3) Can a player (in this case Thorsten) decide to turn the direction - e.i. decide that the center of evil is not where we have been moving to all along, as per divination and as decided by bjørn?
- I don't see why not. Kaven can certainly try, and Kaven's player likewise. Anything else would be railroading (something, which good to speed up stories, but basically could just as well be one man writing the entire adventure and putting that out. That one man beeing Bjørn, and us missing out on all the fun and games.)
We get to make choices, and the manner in which we act upon them, reflects upon the story. For example, had the IHH and RCS not acted to appease the countess, we might never have gotten this far.
In this example I get the feeling that you see Wallac as the leader of this adventure, and thus feel his authority undermined by Kaven. But are you sure that others (Kaven for example) see it the same way IC? ::)
- Thorsten
-
I assume it's Jon who moved the two posts above from the adventure thread and so Bjørn have not read my questions. Shall I write them specifically to him or assume he read this tread as well
Jon did so partially at my resquest, I believe. As you see already, there is more ooc chatter, than IC, and to have it mixed (in my oppinion) really disrupts the flow of the tale (which I think is a shame, as I really love when people post IC). And since there already was an ooc thread on the subject, why not use that (or mail).
That's partially true :) - mainly I'm doing it because I just love the power of move yall around as I DESIRE! muhahahahah! Ah... Gave my petty side all away didn't I. :-[
Anyway, keep long OoC chains out of IC matters. We have the Great Beyond for that.
And yeah, the nature of the game taken into consideration, any good ideas you have to turn the story in other directions, are welcome. Especially countermeasures.
-
[OOC: A few questions of mine:
1) Have we killed one or more Wraiths? If we have do we have a number of how many we have killed?
2) Regarding warning; for the purpose of exactly not to be completely taken ofguard by the incorperal undeads we have brought a couple of caged rats. The point is that when the wraiths come within 30 feet as per "Unnatural Aura (Su)
Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range. ". Bjørn does this apply in RoE and if it does will it help us.
3) Can a player (in this case Thorsten) decide to turn the direction - e.i. decide that the center of evil is not where we have been moving to all along, as per divination and as decided by bjørn?
4) Do we have any idea of wether or not we are getting closer to their lair]
Ooc: 30 feet is less than 10 meters and the range of a charge move is 60 feet for a human, 120 for a flying wraith. Not much of a warning even if you know where they come from (ie. they aren't comming from the wall, floor and ceiling).
As to an idea, both Kaven and the Patriarch seem convinced of their words, the Baron clearly trusting the Patriarchs feelings on the matter.
Oooh! A rat scanner! That takes me back ;D
ON HUDSON scanning the med lab and the nearby barrier.
RIPLEY
(voice over)
Anything?
BEEP. Hudson's tracker lights up, a faint signal.
HUDSON
There's something.
He pans it around. Back down the corridor. It beeps
again, louder.
HUDSON
It's inside the complex.
VASQUEZ
(voice over)
You're just reading me.
HUDSON
No. No! It ain't you. They're
inside. Inside the perimeter.
They're in here.
RIPLEY
Hudson, stay cool. Vasquez?
ANGLE ON VASQUEZ swinging her tracker and rifle together.
She aims it behind her. BEEP.
VASQUEZ
(cool)
Hudson may be right.
-
I agree too much OOC can be contra productive for the adventure thread - I concur with that. My question to that was purely practical - Bjørn have not seen the questions since he was not the one moving them. I guess I will put them in a mail as well.
Regarding players changing the course of an adventure I see it not as matter of authority between one the players but rather a matter of how these adventures work.
I have been told by Bjørn in mail earlier that we as players can change the minor stuff without GM input/output.
Before Kaven & Co decided that the source of evil should be another place than our current course, and hence not directly aimed for Thorsten’s idea, Bjørn wrote to me:
"..you have pretty free reins to write what you want and move things forward, as long as you don’t try to dictate everything that happens."
I asked Bjørn to elaborate and got this reply yesterday:
" As long as it stays within the general context of the adventure and doesn’t try to conclude and/or significantly change the setting. I.e. you’ve followed the wraiths deep into the catacombs; writing in something that happens down there – more attack for example – is OK, but getting out of the catacombs of finding the wraiths’ lair would be wrong"
Since I was uncertain if Thorsten’s idea for moving along the adventure conflict with Bjorn’s two above statements I wanted to get confirmation before acting upon it.
And for my own understanding of the situation we are in I asked a few other questions to Bjørn. Foremost I am interested in knowing how many Wraiths we have killed if any at all.
-
Oooh! A rat scanner! That takes me back ;D
And where do we move your OOC posts to Jon :P
-
I agree too much OOC can be contra productive for the adventure thread - I concur with that. My question to that was purely practical - Bjørn have not seen the questions since he was not the one moving them. I guess I will put them in a mail as well.
Regarding players changing the course of an adventure I see it not as matter of authority between one the players but rather a matter of how these adventures work.
I have been told by Bjørn in mail earlier that we as players can change the minor stuff without GM input/output.
Before Kaven & Co decided that the source of evil should be another place than our current course, and hence not directly aimed for Thorsten’s idea, Bjørn wrote to me:
"..you have pretty free reins to write what you want and move things forward, as long as you don’t try to dictate everything that happens."
I asked Bjørn to elaborate and got this reply yesterday:
" As long as it stays within the general context of the adventure and doesn’t try to conclude and/or significantly change the setting. I.e. you’ve followed the wraiths deep into the catacombs; writing in something that happens down there – more attack for example – is OK, but getting out of the catacombs of finding the wraiths’ lair would be wrong"
Since I was uncertain if Thorsten’s idea for moving along the adventure conflict with Bjorn’s two above statements I wanted to get confirmation before acting upon it.
And for my own understanding of the situation we are in I asked a few other questions to Bjørn. Foremost I am interested in knowing how many Wraiths we have killed if any at all.
Ahh, I think you've mistaken the Patriarchs words then. He speaks of the sewers/catacombs, but in another direction (ie. not at the end of the long "path" we are following now) and further down into the ground. :D
-
Oooh! A rat scanner! That takes me back ;D
And where do we move your OOC posts to Jon :P
Oh, touché Kasper! ;D
-
Oooh! A rat scanner! That takes me back ;D
And where do we move your OOC posts to Jon :P
Oh, touché Kasper! ;D
You zhall never heskape ze Jon!
-
Now; as to your questions.
1. How many wraiths have you killed. Not one - that you know of. It is however hard to know with such incorporeal beings. They have struck fast and retreated, using surprise and speed to their advantage.
2. Moving the adventure ahead. The prime directive here is trust. Every player has an obligation not to take the adventure into crazy town (good thing I'm not a player anymore ;D), but each player also has an obligation to keep the story moving. So it's a balance.
Bjørn will build on what you throw him and I've litterally seen adventures slowly go down because people were waiting for Bjørn to start "the train", so to speak.
-
you see Wallac as the leader of this adventure, and thus feel his authority undermined by Kaven. But are you sure that others (Kaven for example) see it the same way IC? ::)
- Thorsten
In addition to my above elaboration to your post I will try to answer this one separately.
Yes Wallac Isilviere sees himself as the leader. He has taken the initiative to gather the group and have most men under his command (or at least he had so lol). However he sees himself as a leader though among equals and thus it is another matter than merely giving an order to the other regents or their men. He will take their council and perhaps even do something different than what he prefers to as long it does not contradict violently with his beliefs.
Beside this Wallac Isilviere is very much aware that down here we simply have to stick together to survive and even more so to succeed. Mind you he is a stubborn and at times ruthless man.
I, Kasper, see this adventure as something several players do together and so it's important (to me) that everybody have an impact and an important role to play. I would wish for Bobby and Alexander to more visible though I appreciate the fact that those who are active have the greatest influence.
Mind you I decided to try to do this adventure long ago and with ETN going MIA I looked for alternative company. First I got Alan hooked albeit he managed to get his character off the hook and pay homage to his new lady friend. Then I got Alexander and Bobby convinced to lend me a hand. Due to a complete brain-fuck of mine I did not think RCS as an option and so you got aboard rather late. I Thorsten am very happy you are here now though. Both because we need the help and because you write some nice posts :-)
But I never the less try to balance the adventure between, me in charge and me as part of a band of equals (haven taking the initiative and having spend the most efforts, resources and character actions for it - at least that what I think).
That said Wallac Isilviere perceives himself as the leader albeit among equals and honor bound not to simply leave those behind that do not dare to carry on, since they all agreed to assist him and not to commit suicide
-
Ahh, I think you've mistaken the Patriarchs words then. He speaks of the sewers/catacombs, but in another direction (ie. not at the end of the long "path" we are following now) and further down into the ground. :D
Ahh I see.
In the very start of the adventure Bjørn said that we got our direction/aim from guides and divenation spells. So this could be a matter of different oppinions and to be played out IC.
-
After reading Bjorn's post -- I am kinda happy I didn't go.
I personally would have been advocating falling back at the moment to get additional resources.
Undead which use tactics are never good...
Heh that is right. Note that when the shit hit the fan Wallac exclaimed how he misses Osoer being present?
I take comfort in this mail from Bjørn a few days ago:
"Both senior priests seem very satisfied - as satisfied as you can be when about to enter the sewers and catacombs of an ancient city, hunting for the worst kind of undead there is. But if any group can survive - nay actually win a major victory and end the menace - it is you.
OOC: Your part is very well suited to the task at hand, and has more power than could reasonably be expected to be needed to complete the average adventure. "
-
Why not use the energy IC in the actual adventure? Write in a few rats if you will - I'm sure that humans also feel quite unwell when near the undead, but as always animals tend to have keener senses.
As long as its not completely over the top, it just cool if you contribute and move things forward. Example: In this case rats are written in, and then I reply that well, rats do scurry around in the little cages, but the wraiths strike suddenly and swiftly, so their warnings are barely enough to allow you to get ready - and maybe the wraiths start feinting once they understand what you are doing...
-
Hmm, I note that Bjorn didn't say 'complete the average adventure without crippling injury' - the adventure examples so far seem to be brutal (the Roesone DO example was a classic) - Looey's cost a fortune to attract and so need to have reasonable survivability, not to mention regents!
-
A thought: We have several clerics with us of high level.
Why no use "Hide from Undead" level 1 spel? 10 minuttes/level and the cleric can affect 1 person/level. Combine it with Death Ward lvl 4 for the major show down and I say our party have a rather good chance to succeed.
I mean IHH have 3 clerics present & RCS at the very least 1. The Swordmage and her magic missiles plus force spells combined with Baron Bellamie and I think we have an ok chance. Ok one or more of our characters can die but so it should be or the excitement would decrease a lot and without risk what honor can be won? (IHH is however not here for the honor)
-
Sorry, wasn't clear. The idea was that the wraith struck as you began casting your spell - I imagine they're more than intelligent enough to wait for moments of distraction like that to try and bring down our casters.
-
Mind you I decided to try to do this adventure long ago and with ETN going MIA I looked for alternative company. First I got Alan hooked albeit he managed to get his character off the hook and pay homage to his new lady friend. Then I got Alexander and Bobby convinced to lend me a hand. Due to a complete brain-fuck of mine I did not think RCS as an option and so you got aboard rather late. I Thorsten am very happy you are here now though. Both because we need the help and because you write some nice posts :-)
But I never the less try to balance the adventure between, me in charge and me as part of a band of equals (haven taking the initiative and having spend the most efforts, resources and character actions for it - at least that what I think).
That said Wallac Isilviere perceives himself as the leader albeit among equals and honor bound not to simply leave those behind that do not dare to carry on, since they all agreed to assist him and not to commit suicide
Hahah! A good thing I noticed your post in time. We where doing the same thing, though form different sides (and me without inviting those I felt might upset my liege lord :P)
If we did not team up, we might have gotten in each others way, as Kaven was adventuring and researching in Ilien too. Either, I would have gotten Kaven killed, sending him of alone, or you would have experienced losses yourself (though not as strong as some, I very much respect the RCS' experience with the shadow. They where a though bunch when I took them over (thanks, Rune?) and I nurtured that toughness. :P
But I think we have stuff to discuss IC afterwards (yay! :D)... If we survive, and don't dissolve due to various leadership! :P
-
A thought: We have several clerics with us of high level.
Why no use "Hide from Undead" level 1 spel? 10 minuttes/level and the cleric can affect 1 person/level. Combine it with Death Ward lvl 4 for the major show down and I say our party have a rather good chance to succeed.
I mean IHH have 3 clerics present & RCS at the very least 1. The Swordmage and her magic missiles plus force spells combined with Baron Bellamie and I think we have an ok chance. Ok one or more of our characters can die but so it should be or the excitement would decrease a lot and without risk what honor can be won? (IHH is however not here for the honor)
Hide from undead is only certain to work against lesser undead and breaks as soon as you conduct some sort of hostile activity. Against higher undead, the intelligent kind, they at least get a saving throw. So hide from undead may protect you from skeletons, zombies and ghouls, but not easily from wraiths.
-
(though not as strong as some, I very much respect the RCS' experience with the shadow. They where a though bunch when I took them over (thanks, Rune?) and I nurtured that toughness. :P
That toughness and their determined goal to stay independant was exactly why I enjoyed playing the RCS even though I knew that it was only a matter of time before Diemed would swallow Medoere. To this day Suris Enlien is still my favorite character, and I have many times wished she could come back to the game. It's probably for the best that she hasn't though, since I consider her to be "my" character, and it would be sad to se her played by another player (and probably differently from me ;D).
While RoE has been fun after I played Medoere, I still have to admit that those turns were the best in the game for me.
Such fond memories ^^
-
(though not as strong as some, I very much respect the RCS' experience with the shadow. They where a though bunch when I took them over (thanks, Rune?) and I nurtured that toughness. :P
That toughness and their determined goal to stay independant was exactly why I enjoyed playing the RCS even though I knew that it was only a matter of time before Diemed would swallow Medoere. To this day Suris Enlien is still my favorite character, and I have many times wished she could come back to the game. It's probably for the best that she hasn't though, since I consider her to be "my" character, and it would be sad to se her played by another player (and probably differently from me ;D).
While RoE has been fun after I played Medoere, I still have to admit that those turns were the best in the game for me.
Such fond memories ^^
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that among the good guys of Anuire, those who may actually give that wartorn place a chance for survival, the Ruornites of Medoere count highest. They haven't wasted their time and precious resources trying to break free of Diemed, but spent it growing stronger and more capable in fighting the shadow. It was good to have them as allies in RoE I.
-
On the matter of William Osoer being held back against his will by the Countess
OOC:
Assuming Wallac Isilviere survives the adventure he hopes the Countess seriously consider to set the Archduke free. Wallac Isilviere intends to walk directly to her Excellency once we are done and ask her politely one more time.
Should she refuse once again the High Prefect will be honor bound by his word given Osoer. His word to protect him while he was doing the work of Haelyns on by helping the Pontiff defeating the Wraiths. While Osoer never got the chance to actively pursue that task he never the less is in Ilien on behalf of the Pontiff to assist him defeating the Wraiths.
Upon hearing one more refusal from the Countess and especially if she again sets her own pride and need to teach Osoer humility before the need of the Innocent; before Wallac Isilviere’s word of honor, Before the interest of IHH and lastly before Divine Haelyn - should the Countess indeed persist Wallac Isilviere is to blow his horn signal; a signal that will be received at the Grand Cathedral and where the tolling Bells will sound carrying the order of Wallac Isilviere’s. Upon hearing that the Justicars of Haelyn's 5 lieutenants will open their sealed orders and Wallac Isilviere will keep his word of Honor or die trying.
Alan what’s your perception of this? If we decide Wallac Isilviere did not give his word of Honor above obviously will not happen but for the lack of shared assumptions between players, DM's and possible more important the MIA of Ilien player.
But Isilviere is one that take his word rather serious and especially when it comes to something like this
-
Looking in the directions of the screams, Kavens grips his sword tightly.
"I will have retribution for the souls of those that have been lost."
His jaw firmly set, Kaven studies the guides map, then lightly clasps his shoulder with a mailed fist.
"Your services are valued comrade. Now, please stop me, if I head in the wrong direction, but stay behind me... All of you, gather up and follow. We will find the source of this before long!" With those words, the Baron of Medoere takes point, and heads in the direction stated by the guide, back the way they came, peering into the darkness and offering up a prayer for the souls of the lost.The rest of the RCS men follow closely after their leader, emboldened by his apparent aura of determination
Sure thing we will follow the patriarch but do you mean that the RCS now form their own group and take the role of vanguard?
I thought that was why we had brought along the Knights of the Sun (ei. the bodyguards)
Regardless take us to the conclusion Bjørn - will we succeed or will we fail? Will one or more of us get killed in the process or horrible mutilated?
-
Hide from undead is only certain to work against lesser undead and breaks as soon as you conduct some sort of hostile activity. Against higher undead, the intelligent kind, they at least get a saving throw. So hide from undead may protect you from skeletons, zombies and ghouls, but not easily from wraiths.
If the Wraiths use the lesser undeads to scout/inform it help in that regard. Else the wraiths that fail their save can not see us and those that do will get dealt with accordingly. I may not meen complete hiding but it should help us a little
-
My last post before Bjørn let us decide between seaharbor or Wraiths lair do not match very well. Am I allowed to change it a little?
Like from:
“Down there we must go. There we can hide no more. The time of reckoning has come. If we go down there no turning back will be possible; either we fail and succumb to the hordes or we succeed and crush the black heart of shadow”
Some deletion of last part and a small change
To:
“Down there we must go. There we can hide no more. The time of reckoning has come. If we go down there we will have to make a choice”
a simple "yes/no" will do. If I hear nothing I just go a long and change as per above
-
[OOC: Concerning the Red Wind I have a newbie question or two; what is the red Wind? Azrai of some sort, a terrible sorcerer-general?
Those men here are in league with that Azrai so assuming I am right they will be the Arch-Enemy of all good yes? - and still Haelyn Frowns upon ambush/first strike? If that is so my LG will not permit Wallac Isilviere an attack outright without propper challenge etc. Too bad but I for one am prepared to suffer the ultimate consequences for that]
-
Haelyn is many things - but in general a LG paladin/cleric of the Allfather will strive to be honorable; and that doesn't include ambushes. A priest of any other alignment wouldn't have such qualms.
-
The Red Wind - One of the Lost, a sorcerer-general of Azrai.
Look in the old forum:
http://ruinsofempire.twilightpeaks.net/forums/index.php?topic=616.0
-
Thanks for the concise reply and the link.
Concerning LG, perhaps I interpret the generally more lax alignment in RoE II a tad too far; giving a challenge and/or a fighting chance for the arch enemies was not how I thought it to be but I have taken note and will try to navigate with that in mind.
How about undead and monsters? If they are perceived as evil do I still hold back or is an ambush in that regard perceived as all right? I want to take the LG serious and would be glad if actions that contradict with that are promptly stopped when it slips
-
Undead are to be smitten in any way possible, same goes for truly heinous monsters (but not 'bad people').
Clerics and paladins are supposed to be examples to other men, so for them alignment tends to be more extreme than for the common folk.
-
The group's magic is depleted, you said - what do we have left that can harm the Wraiths if they attack? Presumably the Swordmage's cloak, and maybe her weapon. Any magic left to enchant weapons, any other magic weapons carried by PCs or Lieutenants?
-
The group's magic is depleted, you said - what do we have left that can harm the Wraiths if they attack? Presumably the Swordmage's cloak, and maybe her weapon. Any magic left to enchant weapons, any other magic weapons carried by PCs or Lieutenants?
And what holy water is left.
-
Hmm, Ambushes on honourable foes are certainly out - but what about foes deemed 'beyond the pale' or 'beneath honour'.
So, for example, is trapping/ambushing 'mindless' creatures ok, is ambushing undead/demons ok? Neither is even remotely going to come under the honourable enemy condition and both are generally considered destroyed/exterminated rather than murdered or even killed.
As a paladin I figure Robhan is at the ultimate extreme - if the enemy can think and talk he'll be openly challenging it like death-wishes are in fashion again, however historically once a crusade had been declared, excommunication levied, person was declared outlaw, then the usual civilised defenses they had against 'dishonourable combat' simply vanished.
A bit like the Geneva convention - if your enemy wears a uniform then they had numerous rights, if the enemy went mufti as spies then the gloves come off. Similarly for armies which refused to wear uniforms - the protections their civilians had under the convention are seriously weakened.
-
Undead are to be smitten in any way possible, same goes for truly heinous monsters (but not 'bad people').
Clerics and paladins are supposed to be examples to other men, so for them alignment tends to be more extreme than for the common folk.
Undead, Awnshegh, creatures purely of the Shadow, etc., are unworthy of consideration or honorable treatment, it sounds like. I think as a rule of thumb, if there is any "humanity" left to a being, ambushes are probably at least somewhat uncool in Haelyn's eyes. If they have truly given up or lost their humanity, had none to begin with, or have had it "stripped" from them by some kind of papal decree or such, they're fair game.
Meanwhile, to a devout Cuiraceanite, even those might not be appropriate to strike from ambush. Cuiracean's idea of honor is less about the treatment a foe is due, and more about the way he expects his followers to behave re: danger and battle.
-
So we get reinforcements and do some interrogation then proceed with the wraiths the next day or what?
-
Undead are to be smitten in any way possible, same goes for truly heinous monsters (but not 'bad people').
Clerics and paladins are supposed to be examples to other men, so for them alignment tends to be more extreme than for the common folk.
Undead, Awnshegh, creatures purely of the Shadow, etc., are unworthy of consideration or honorable treatment, it sounds like. I think as a rule of thumb, if there is any "humanity" left to a being, ambushes are probably at least somewhat uncool in Haelyn's eyes. If they have truly given up or lost their humanity, had none to begin with, or have had it "stripped" from them by some kind of papal decree or such, they're fair game.
Meanwhile, to a devout Cuiraceanite, even those might not be appropriate to strike from ambush. Cuiracean's idea of honor is less about the treatment a foe is due, and more about the way he expects his followers to behave re: danger and battle.
An ambush is a long-established military tactic in which the agressors (the ambushing force) lie in hiding to take the enemy by surprise.
In my eyes, that doesn't mean you cannot ambush people, spring up from concealment with weapons ready and demand their surrender. In fact, that may save many lives, if the foe believe themselves outnumbered or surrounded before the battle even begins.
I wouldn't say that is the same as sneak attacking someone from hiding. That would be the less honourable thing to do. Waiting for the opportune moment, and then slaying all with bolts and spells before they even know where the foe is.
No, an ambush for me is avoiding contact with the enemy(and thus denying him a chance to bring his numbers to bear against you) untill the opportune moment, denying the enemy time to prepare their defenses. That, in my eyes, does not constitute as an non-LG act.
The whole LG issue seems to revolve around giving the foe a fair chance. I'd consider it a more fair chance to offer someone the chance to surrender peacefully beforehand, than challenging them to the death in mortal combat (queue theme music). Preparing the ground does not seem dishonourable, but merely logical. Otherwise you would never be able to pick your battlefield with massive armies, because you would have to challenge the foe (who is often superior in numbers, as I see it) and give them the chance to dig in.
(Imagine the outcome if we had presented ourselves on the beach, and waited untill all boats where safely ashore, before challenging them? Kaven would miss more than three toes, where that the case :D)
-
Perhaps the reason he did lose the three toes was we waited honorable on the beach and challenged them; D
Silly jokes aside I concur with the ambush and demand surrender kind of thing - question is will Bjorn? If not I will stick with his interpretation for LG inconvenient approach or not.
-
An ambush is a long-established military tactic in which the agressors (the ambushing force) lie in hiding to take the enemy by surprise.
In my eyes, that doesn't mean you cannot ambush people, spring up from concealment with weapons ready and demand their surrender. In fact, that may save many lives, if the foe believe themselves outnumbered or surrounded before the battle even begins.
I wouldn't say that is the same as sneak attacking someone from hiding. That would be the less honourable thing to do. Waiting for the opportune moment, and then slaying all with bolts and spells before they even know where the foe is.
No, an ambush for me is avoiding contact with the enemy(and thus denying him a chance to bring his numbers to bear against you) untill the opportune moment, denying the enemy time to prepare their defenses. That, in my eyes, does not constitute as an non-LG act.
The whole LG issue seems to revolve around giving the foe a fair chance. I'd consider it a more fair chance to offer someone the chance to surrender peacefully beforehand, than challenging them to the death in mortal combat (queue theme music). Preparing the ground does not seem dishonourable, but merely logical. Otherwise you would never be able to pick your battlefield with massive armies, because you would have to challenge the foe (who is often superior in numbers, as I see it) and give them the chance to dig in.
I disagree here, offering your enemies to surrender upon defeat should not be attributed to being Lawful Good, merely lawful. In my opinion even a LN character would offer this (or even a LE character, though he might execute them later). Being LG is being on the extreme end of the alignment scale - and is therefore supposed to be difficult to play. Just as being CE is difficult (it is actually hard to be that evil ::)). LG is so extreme it's almost a clichè - the player tries to see good in everyone, and will certainly make sure his own actions are both just and good. In the situation you just faced, a LG character should announce himself and give them the chance to surrender without a fight. And then offer them to surrender again once they have been defeated. Probably not the wisest thing to do from a military point of view, but that's probably the reason why very few people (especially military leaders) are LG.
-
Rune I believe its assumed there is good reason to even consider the attack/challene/ambush or whatever.
Your point of view almost suggest LG are not going to ever attack anyone. Meek pacifist kinda guys
-
Rune I believe its assumed there is good reason to even consider the attack/challene/ambush or whatever.
Your point of view almost suggest LG are not going to ever attack anyone. Meek pacifist kinda guys
No, I didn't question your decision to attack them. I just felt that a LG character should announce himself and offer them the chance to surrender before being slaughtered. As a LG character you are certainly allowed to smite your enemies (with righteous fury etc etc), but they should still be given the chance to repent and do the right thing (i.e surrender peacefully and not kill your men).
-
I disagree here, offering your enemies to surrender upon defeat should not be attributed to being Lawful Good, merely lawful. In my opinion even a LN character would offer this (or even a LE character, though he might execute them later). Being LG is being on the extreme end of the alignment scale - and is therefore supposed to be difficult to play. Just as being CE is difficult (it is actually hard to be that evil ::)). LG is so extreme it's almost a clichè - the player tries to see good in everyone, and will certainly make sure his own actions are both just and good. In the situation you just faced, a LG character should announce himself and give them the chance to surrender without a fight. And then offer them to surrender again once they have been defeated. Probably not the wisest thing to do from a military point of view, but that's probably the reason why very few people (especially military leaders) are LG.
That is actually what I am suggesting. The group of do-good'ers stealthily move into positions (some would say surround, other flanking) upon the unsuspecting enemy.
When in place, the leader would give the order, and the entire group would show themselves, weapons at the ready and demand the surrender of the foe. Failing that, they fight, after which, they would be given the option to surrender too... the whole point here beeing, that it is not physically impossible for a LG character to employ sneaking skills and subterfuge if the result is less dead men and a victory to the good side.
In the situation we faced, it was always the intention of demanding surrender before or after (though that is somewhat hampered by the fact that they spoke a different language.) The best option available seemed to be shouting the name of our gods in the hope that they recognized it and realized what we where. We just never got as far.
-
More to the point, it would do us little good to announce ourselves and our demands, barely within hearing range of the foe. Then we might as well just be standing on one bank of a river, and shout across to the enemy standing at the other, before we waded into the water, intent on whacking them over the heads once we reached the other side, at which time they would be well prepared to kill us all of, with superior numbers.
We needed to gain ground, so that our presence were a serious threat, or it would just be hollow ultimatum.
-
Ah yes, I read your post a bit differently. But I see that you indeed suggest the same as I suggested - or at least something very close. I read it as you argumenting for ambushing them and then offering a surrender when they were beaten - but I see I was wrong there ^^
That said, I am very happy I'm not playing a LG character - it's dammed hindering to have to do the right thing all the time. ;D
-
Sometimes killing is right... Even for a LG character.
The whole Law part takes care of that. If you mellow it even further, to LN or even LE, then you can actively lobby for the law to support whatever heineous act you want to perform.
From assassination to the confiscation of cupcakes. ::)
-
LG is no more good than NG or CG - and while paladins in particular will be extreme LG's, its better to represent alignment by a series of shifting focuses than a set of discrete blobs - a 'moderate' LG could be closer in alignment to a NG or LN or even true neutral than they might be to an extreme LG - think of it like a wheel. The alignment determines what spoke you follow from the centre, not how far along the spoke you go.
Most people would be fairly middle-ish if mapped onto the wheel, and so they might dip from actions typical to one alignment to those typical to another often - a guy who hates mornings might wake up CE if the builders are at it at 6 in the morning after a long nights drinking, but may mellow to LG after a coffee and a back rub from his missus....
LG does not mean lawful stupid. If your enemy will not or cannot repent then giving them the opportunity to escape or kill your friends isn't LG, its just stupid. Certainly any enemy who ignores a chance to surrender once, betrays you, etc, should not be given the benefit of the doubt the second time, in Br undead, goblins, etc quite likely had their 'chance' aeons ago - and having repeatedly proved themselves untrustworthy will be given a chance only by a paragon of righteousness or an idiot (no snickering at the back!)
LG means making sure that your actions support the community not merely your own desires, that your actions are socially responsible (get the warrant before kicking in the door), that you are proportionate (don't decapitate offenders for stealing bread) and fair (be consistent in applying the law), it means working within the community to better it, not riding roughshod over it. It does not mean soft, it does not mean nice, it may mean forgiving, but not forgetting.
So if planning an ambush LE might shoot first and offer the survivors a chance to surrender - if they surrender really fast; LG might have a single brave soul stand forth and command they surrender / depart without harming their target, but if the other chooses battle then the lawful part of LG dictates that you make the battle as cheap on the community as possible, and an ambush does exactly that - all of you stepping out to implicitly say 'you will lose, give up now' is simply a psychological tactic, good guys might do it more often than evil, but it isn't intrinsically lawful that I can see unless the communal code demands it.
Surrender on defeat is not lawful in my view, die free or live as slaves is music to the ears of any evil and many neutral folk, while good people would put far milder constraints upon captives, accepting surrender should be fine for anyone - the good guys just feel more remorse over a slaughter.
-
Hey! - Goblins are not monsters. And I'm not only saying that because I'm an idiot with 50.000 of them in my garden! ;D
Check out this post: http://ruinsofempire.twilightpeaks.net/forums/index.php?topic=120.0
Now if your character IC believes they are nothing but little monsters, sure go ahead. :)
-
Goblins are monsters
Please consider reading below once again
Certainly any enemy who ignores a chance to surrender once, betrays you, etc, should not be given the benefit of the doubt the second time, in Br undead, goblins, etc quite likely had their 'chance' aeons ago - and having repeatedly proved themselves untrustworthy will be given a chance only by a paragon of righteousness or an idiot (no snickering at the back!)
-
Perhaps the reason he did lose the three toes was we waited honorable on the beach and challenged them; D
Silly jokes aside I concur with the ambush and demand surrender kind of thing - question is will Bjorn? If not I will stick with his interpretation for LG inconvenient approach or not.
I've nothing against LG characters being clever and surprising their enemies (such as described by Thorsten) - but a sudden ambush and subsequent slaughter isn't LG. Such characters MIGHT still do it (and suffer no ill consequences) against 'irredeemable' enemies, but they won't be scoring extra points for upholding the lofty principles of LGness (except that smiting the Shadow IS a Good act in itself).
Also remember that paladins have somewhat higher standards than others as do clerics. A LG paladin of Haelyn is supposed to be a shining example of everything that a LG CAN BE. Chaerles the LG peasant is probably a nice fellow, god-fearing and kin to his wife and 11 children, striving to do what he knows is right, but he's not as strongly LG as the paladin.
-
Hey! - Goblins are not monsters. And I'm not only saying that because I'm an idiot with 50.000 of them in my garden! ;D
Check out this post: http://ruinsofempire.twilightpeaks.net/forums/index.php?topic=120.0
Now if your character IC believes they are nothing but little monsters, sure go ahead. :)
Many Anuireans readily place goblins in the category 'irredeemable monsters', which explains a lot of heinous acts against goblins over the years. Acts that the actor feels are both just and good, perhaps even temple approved (slay al the goblins - spare no one).
The fact though is that murdering goblins is no good act. Slaughtering goblin women and children definitely evil. Good and evil are not relative, and even when justified evil act are...evil.
Now, the murder of goblins might serve some greater purpose and actually save human lives later on (goblins definitely are not do-gooders), but the actual murder of them is not good (at best) and most likely quite evil.
-
... You can of course try to prevent this from happening, but then you create a potentially very dangerous situation - the Countess has made it pretty clear that "Free City" doesn't imply that she's not in charge.
Namedropping FTW! :D
-
The Countess is being high-handed, yes, guys, by seizing the prisoners we brought back without any negotiation. She's pissed. A member of our party told her she didn't have the authority to question his presence in her own city, and he was high-ranking and powerful enough for that statement to sting badly instead of being laughable. Her pride is wounded, so she's making it clear who's in charge here, and she's doing it with armed men - that's how regents roll, and it's why they get so many people killed.
I'm not saying I agree with her - Bellamie certainly doesn't - but we need to consider consequences. If we call out troops to defend us, item 1 - I guarantee, flat, outright guarantee that not a single one of us will hold those prisoners by the end of it. They'll be rescued or "accidentally" killed in the confusion. We'll also get a lot of other folks dead, at best we will wind up besieged inside the cathedral, and Haelyn knows how long it'll take to resolve that situation after we've gone to war with the Countess over this. Arguing with the troops = ok. Arguing with the Countess = ok. Calling out a unit or more of troops to storm through the city and cut down the guards arresting us = disproportionate response.
-
It sounds like there is a strong disincentive to adventure in other people's realms, lol.
-
Funny thing the situation is almost an exact mirror of the HA/Kavarra conflict from turn 50 or so. That one didn't turn out very well...
-
Funny thing the situation is almost an exact mirror of the HA/Kavarra conflict from turn 50 or so. That one didn't turn out very well...
Then let’s agree not to repeat. I was not around in RoE at that time and I have a hard time distinguishing between stuff OOC like the Ilien player being MIA and hence lack of relevant communication prior to adventure and the need for the Countess to show her authority.
I do not wish for the new player of Ilien to start out having pissed of her allies, her former allies, her state faith and other faiths in Ilien plus the Pontiff for all temples of Anuire. Really that would not be fair.
But really we come in good faith wishing to free of charge and for our good heart to help freeing Ilien from a threat and in reality mostly we are met with hostility and mistrust bordering outright acts of war.
Besides its disturbing in a city so large that the Countess have guards right on the spot where we surface - it’s not from where we entered; and that those guards know we bring prisoners and have already orders to seize them.
I can understand why Thorsten IC react as if some sinister plot is showing its face when in reality its mostly a brain fart that snow balled starting by Ilien player being MIA and thus lack of relevant pre-adventure communication. Throw in difference of assumptions and things are bound to get out of control. I gather that was not the intention for anybody.
This is my first season of RoE; I have put a great effort into learning the rules and getting to know the setting and what’s more others, DM’s and veteran players, have put a lot of effort into helping me. I would really like not to have everything fall apart due to my own and others brain farts.
I ask Bjørn to help us all to get back on track using what means are necessary including taking temporary control of our characters and decide their actions; Anything but having difference of assumptions and the spinoff from there ruining a perfectly good and exciting adventure. Perhaps drawing a line and say how it was from important NPC’s and PC’s point of view and how they each perceive it from there and close the issue.
Standing by for major brain surgery changing memory and perception of passed events ;D
PS That is one way to solve it - I'll stay openminded for other ways including having my poor regent thrown in jail or worse but I rather not contribute to that end myself
EDIT: It seems action have allready been taken to solve the issue. My wish for clarrification/change of event including how our respective PC's perceive still stand. Personally I am inclined to go burn whole Ilien and repeatedly kick the Countess in her fat arse, but hey thats just me OOC. No valid reason for me to be such a prick but confusion is a nasty monster
Btw. who volunteer for playing the Ilien domain or am Bjørn going to keep it for his own fun ;D
-
It sounds like there is a strong disincentive to adventure in other people's realms, lol.
Well, most would get worried if they had strangers fire off bolts of lightning and slice of heads in their backyard each night. At least one would want a word with the involved at an appropriate moment.
And, one thing is the ever bothersome but useful “Adventurers”, bored 3rd-sons of some minor nobles and their half-brigand following of runaway novices and mages apprentices. But when the slingers of bolts of lightning and slicers of heads are next door regents of real political power and ambitions, then it’s just too much for many an esteemed lord or lady.
Standing on ones bedchamber balcony hearing the screams and sounds of arms and seeing the blue and red flashes go of at a distance One could mutter. “..do These neighbors not have their own city to play in?”
-
I think its sorta nice - lots of tension and stuff. And the Countess gets to establish herself as prickly and uncertain, with a desperate need to show she's in control.
-
Personally I am inclined to go burn whole Ilien and repeatedly kick the Countess in her fat arse, but hey thats just me OOC.
To be honest, that would be very much in line with the actions of previous IHH clergy ::)
-
But it wont be with the new. That was just me speaking - not my regent who is actually a rather nice guy.
I on the other hand wants to put Ilien to the torch and the witch in charge of the damned town put on the bonfire. Guess I will have to restrain some ::)
I have a feeling that putting my two Hencmen, regent, follower & an crack unit in action to help the bloody damned city wont warrant any thanks. Let me know if anyone have some dirt on the Countess 8)
-
It sounds like there is a strong disincentive to adventure in other people's realms, lol.
Well, most would get worried if they had strangers fire off bolts of lightning and slice of heads in their backyard each night. At least one would want a word with the involved at an appropriate moment.
And, one thing is the ever bothersome but useful “Adventurers”, bored 3rd-sons of some minor nobles and their half-brigand following of runaway novices and mages apprentices. But when the slingers of bolts of lightning and slicers of heads are next door regents of real political power and ambitions, then it’s just too much for many an esteemed lord or lady.
Standing on ones bedchamber balcony hearing the screams and sounds of arms and seeing the blue and red flashes go of at a distance One could mutter. “..do These neighbors not have their own city to play in?”
Well it was her own goddamned statefaith and another major temple present in ilien (and on good terms with Ilien) that did their bloody damned job and RSC was even charged by Diemed, Iliens own liege lord, to do the task.
Her vain pride almost proved a worse enemy than the Wraiths or Red Wind combined.
And but for the Ilien player being MIA Ilien would have been asked for permission.
-
It sounds like there is a strong disincentive to adventure in other people's realms, lol.
Well, most would get worried if they had strangers fire off bolts of lightning and slice of heads in their backyard each night. At least one would want a word with the involved at an appropriate moment.
And, one thing is the ever bothersome but useful “Adventurers”, bored 3rd-sons of some minor nobles and their half-brigand following of runaway novices and mages apprentices. But when the slingers of bolts of lightning and slicers of heads are next door regents of real political power and ambitions, then it’s just too much for many an esteemed lord or lady.
Standing on ones bedchamber balcony hearing the screams and sounds of arms and seeing the blue and red flashes go of at a distance One could mutter. “..do These neighbors not have their own city to play in?”
Well it was her own goddamned statefaith and another major temple present in ilien (and on good terms with Ilien) that did their bloody damned job and RSC was even charged by Diemed, Iliens own liege lord, to do the task.
Her vain pride almost proved a worse enemy than the Wraiths or Red Wind combined.
And but for the Ilien player being MIA Ilien would have been asked for permission.
Oh do not think I in any way say against you in this. It was just a reflection on the more general side of the bigger picture so to speak.
Do carry on these most good and appropriate deeds.
-
Well, most would get worried if they had strangers fire off bolts of lightning and slice of heads in their backyard each night. At least one would want a word with the involved at an appropriate moment.
And, one thing is the ever bothersome but useful “Adventurers”, bored 3rd-sons of some minor nobles and their half-brigand following of runaway novices and mages apprentices. But when the slingers of bolts of lightning and slicers of heads are next door regents of real political power and ambitions, then it’s just too much for many an esteemed lord or lady.
Standing on ones bedchamber balcony hearing the screams and sounds of arms and seeing the blue and red flashes go of at a distance One could mutter. “..do These neighbors not have their own city to play in?”
I agree with that sentiment. Oh how I watched the armies and battles come closer to Medoere during the Alliance war. Oh how I was so very happy that they stopped in, and around, Ilien and Roesone instead. Phew! It's hard enough dealing with thinning veils and shadows, without people committing mass-genocide right in front of the darned shadowgates :D
-
But it wont be with the new. That was just me speaking - not my regent who is actually a rather nice guy.
I on the other hand wants to put Ilien to the torch and the witch in charge of the damned town put on the bonfire. Guess I will have to restrain some ::)
I have a feeling that putting my two Hencmen, regent, follower & an crack unit in action to help the bloody damned city wont warrant any thanks. Let me know if anyone have some dirt on the Countess 8)
The Countess IS a witch - literally. Join the OIT, burn the witches!
::)
-
Nah I wont take OIT's job from them - I'll leave the actual burning of the Witch (Countss to them) but I guess I, Kasper, may feel little remorse ;D
-
Hey! - Goblins are not monsters. And I'm not only saying that because I'm an idiot with 50.000 of them in my garden! ;D
Check out this post: http://ruinsofempire.twilightpeaks.net/forums/index.php?topic=120.0
Now if your character IC believes they are nothing but little monsters, sure go ahead. :)
Many Anuireans readily place goblins in the category 'irredeemable monsters', which explains a lot of heinous acts against goblins over the years. Acts that the actor feels are both just and good, perhaps even temple approved (slay al the goblins - spare no one).
The fact though is that murdering goblins is no good act. Slaughtering goblin women and children definitely evil. Good and evil are not relative, and even when justified evil act are...evil.
Now, the murder of goblins might serve some greater purpose and actually save human lives later on (goblins definitely are not do-gooders), but the actual murder of them is not good (at best) and most likely quite evil.
Oh I'm fairly sure that wholesale genocide of pretty much anything comes under the 'if you are really lucky you might get it counted as evil but necessary category - but probably not'. Forced relocations (ethnic cleansing in modern parlance) with bloodshed restricted to combatants as far as possible (an elastic term) and in response to ongoing raids and other provocations however? Surely the evil thing is to sit by and do nothing while the goblins raid freely?
So by all means Elenie can argue that the goblins can live as long as they behave themselves, the Aegis will simply wait for the goblins to (inevitably in their view) betray the Elenien trust and then act (downside of being lawful good and serving Haelyn, if a noble really want to do something you think is stupid you let him), but from reading the post Neils linked if someone is going to try and argue that goblins are not a race wedded to evil that worships demons they are going to struggle :)
As for the Countess, she should remember that pride cuts both ways - only a foolishly proud person picks a fight with major dignitaries over a minor point of protocol - the captain should, in my view have been less 'do as I say scum' and more 'with respects your worships, I am but a humble soldier sworn to loyalty given orders - pray accept my duty to follow them as best I can. My orders, give to me by my lawful commander, are merely to escort the prisoners to the castle to ensure they pose no threat to the city and ask of your honoured selves that you discuss their disposal on sundry other matters with the countess. Since your honour demands they stay in your care milord, might I request that you lead us to the castle and oversee the guard - no doubt the honoured pontiff will swiftly satisfy the countesses concerns over the safety of her citizens, etc, etc' - the same actual command, but far more likely to succeed and avoid causing offence.
From a purely pragmatic point the countess sending out her men with orders to kick the party around and treat them like peasants was dim - yes she can slaughter the PCs - but what does she expect to occur in the coming months? She is a person of pride and power - but so are they. The key point to remember in such case is that you never argue in front of the minions and you never contradict each other - face can thus be saved and honour salved on both sides without severe misfortune.
As it is tired, wounded, party members treated with contempt and disrespect by someone their utter social inferior (a mere captain orders the Pontiff, dreaded Swordmage, various other dignitaries about like criminals? Mook, thy name be Captain Deathwish) who were, unsurprisingly, offended by the countesses' treatment - she could easily have 'ignored' the offence publicly and contacted the PCs afterwards explaining the offence given, the way her authority was undermined, the harm caused by their lack of consideration etc etc - and wound up with them owing her, instead of making them enemies.
One wonders if the countess will consider bullying the party at blade point will be rewarded when the wraiths rise to the slaughter in the months to come. I expect she will (honest guv'nor) be shocked and appalled at her captains acts (subtext, I proved I have teeth, don't try my patience again) and grateful in the extreme (subtext, oh my god what did I do, have a token to see that I recognise the hole I dug myself into) for your aid, may we meet under better circumstances in the months to come (subtext, you turn up and scare the crap out of everyone, we almost had city wide riots with people terrified that wraiths would pour from the sewers any moment, next time call me and we can keep it quiet!), etc, etc.
not of course that the nobility is ever likely to be rational when it comes to pride - indeed they often start from the premise 'I am my pride and should it be offended then I am nothing if I do not defend it' - but they are also prone to being very practical...
-
Hehe, I see this post after I sent you Rashid's reply Andy.
And you confirm exactly the subtext that Rashid felt he was picking up... That if some deluded goblin shaman clings up a human or even another goblin, just for old times sake, the HA will be sweeping in with torches and burning the village to the ground.
As Lawful Neutral, the Law is more important than good or evil. The worship of Azrai is illegal and punishable in itself, murder is illegal too, so the shaman would be picked up, as quietly as possible, and then tried for his crimes and be slandered as a backward and twisted evil that has been put to the righteous sword of Law.
Slavery is not legal in Elinie, but indentured servitude is. And the right of the local lord probably extends to placing restrictions on the free movement of the peasants, so the actual change in status for the former slaves in Sutren Hills is likely very, very gradual and will not take full effect for years to come.
However, anyone with an ear to the ground in Sutren Hills, will know that goblins are offered schooling and jobs on equal terms with equally skilled humans. Indeed, officials are looking for goblins with exceptionally compliant personalities (LN/(+LG but daamn they are probably rare) and leadership skills and fast-tracking them to positions of local authority.
I am certain that the goblins will soon figure out how to restrict their mischief to socially accepted ways of backstabbing. Just like the rest of Anuire.
-
Yes that is if you are right they are not evil by nature.
But I would try re-reading status report for turn 61 one paying special attention to goblins. I note your tamed goblins cooperate with the wild goblin tribes. Wonder what they do cooperate over? I doubt the cooperation is about being nice and goofy like.
Let us know when you have learned the error of your way and want us to come and rescue your human inhabitants or those that are left. I believe you miss your army yes? Do the goblin know that?
-
Ohoho, I think I'll quickly point out that my post above is OOC, and this thread is OOC.
The Pontiff is more than welcome to send a letter to Rashid, expressing his concerns on governance of goblins. :)
But I think this topic should either have its own thread or we should leave the subject for now, as we are sorta derailing the thread here. - Though, the adventure is nearly concluded.
-
Ohoho, I think I'll quickly point out that my post above is OOC, and this thread is OOC.
The Pontiff is more than welcome to send a letter to Rashid, expressing his concerns on governance of goblins. :)
But I think this topic should either have its own thread or we should leave the subject for now, as we are sorta derailing the thread here. - Though, the adventure is nearly concluded.
Derail all you please. This is an ooc thread. If you feel like taking it into another topic, be my guest. I am certain there's much to discuss, but as long as the ooc stuff stays ooc, I don't see why anyone would trouble you for derailing :)
P.S.
I agree with everything Andy just said. Actually, his words sums up my thoughts on the matter rather nicely. The Baron offered to pay reparations later (ie. visit the countess and explains his actions) but his tired bones and his wounded pride made him say some things that sparked the whole situation even further.
Needless to say, the Countess and the Baron need to talk abit, to clear the air between them. :D
-
I believe the good Baron is not the only one needing to straigthen things out with the Countess ::)
I too found myself agreeing with Andy. I guess I will tread very carefull
-
I'm just amused that there's apparently such a fine line between "Protect the people of Ilien!" and "Burn down the City of Ilien!" I had no idea it was so easy to go from one to the next. :D
-
I believe the people of Ilien appreciate that someone tries to remove what threats their security.
Regarding the Countess It's more a matter of the Countess demonstrating she is in charge of Ilien and the she calls the shots around here. In Ilien treat her as an emperor or regret. Apparently those that do not fit in her perception of the hierarchy, with her on top possible with Duke of Diemed slightly above her, risk all kinds of enforced rectification.
I for one will tread very lightly when dealing with her on her home turf.
With her apparent attitude I believe it’s quite possible she never leaves her little kingdom but stay home and exercise her power safely behind the walls of her castle.
-
I believe the people of Ilien appreciate that someone tries to remove what threats their security.
Regarding the Countess It's more a matter of the Countess demonstrating she is in charge of Ilien and the she calls the shots around here. In Ilien treat her as an emperor or regret. Apparently those that do not fit in her perception of the hierarchy, with her on top possible with Duke of Diemed slightly above her, risk all kinds of enforced rectification.
I for one will tread very lightly when dealing with her on her home turf.
My word of wisdom of today would be to treat all regents in a similar manner. Just because you see them as further down the pecking order, they probably don't.
-
I do not intend to treat those below me in the hierarchy as the Countess do exercising her power but I will take heed of your words and step very carefully until knowing how a sovereign perceives the respect they are due to show.
The Countess certainly live up to “'I am my pride”
-
My word of wisdom of today would be to treat all regents in a similar manner. Just because you see them as further down the pecking order, they probably don't.
So, would you have us to treat every man as if he was of high nobility? I disagree... Personally I believe it can be just as insulting to people if you overplay your hand, and treat them higher than what their station might warrant. That could be seen as a patronizing, cruel play and biting sarcasm.
If the Archduke treated a Merchant as he would a lord, he would loose much prestige in my eyes. People might call him soft or insecure. Granted, he might just wish to be nice, but to all appearances he would be doting on someone waay below his station. That might insult a Count watching from the sideline, as he would then believe himself of equal station with the merchant in the Archdukes eyes.
Be polite, no doubt you get far by that, but diplomacy was never an easy game, so if you want to get ahead, know your opponent and treat him with the *propper* amount of respect and dignity. No more, no less.... unless you want to brownnose or start a shouting match.
-
So, would you have us to treat every man as if he was of high nobility?
No, and would never argue that. I was just trying to chime in with some advice after seeing (the all too common) problem of players assuming they're always right, and everybody else are (allow me to exagerate, slightly) insignificant in comparison.
-
So, would you have us to treat every man as if he was of high nobility?
No, and would never argue that. I was just trying to chime in with some advice after seeing (the all too common) problem of players assuming they're always right, and everybody else are (allow me to exagerate, slightly) insignificant in comparison.
Heh, that was perhaps an exageration from my side as well. But it's said that exagerations promote understanding :D
I very seldom find myself in a situation where i believe myself right. But the example in the Wraith adventure is one of the few, where I actually believed that I could get away with pulling rank - both the Countess' and my liege lords rank, as well as state faith. :)
I'm not sure how true to our world history RoE keeps itself when concerning nobility, clergy and the liberties they can and may take. Thus I may have jumped to some conclusions that differ from how the game sees things (I trying some old school medieval clergy intimidation in the lines of "you will burn in the seventh circle of hell if you do this", and many games having a slightly different view on such stuff, due to our modern thinking, the implementation of magic and the likes.)
I will be scrutinizing various texts written for RoE I & II over the next few weeks, but unfortunately didn't have the time to do so in regards to this adventures (Every time I wrote up a post, I should actually have been working on a paper... this post included :D )
-
So, would you have us to treat every man as if he was of high nobility?
No, and would never argue that. I was just trying to chime in with some advice after seeing (the all too common) problem of players assuming they're always right, and everybody else are (allow me to exagerate, slightly) insignificant in comparison.
I believe that in this case those who are perceived as insignificant in comparison was all but the Countess herself, or at the very least the participants of the adventure.
I will try to get to understand the enviroment of RoE better than I apparently do now
-
I very seldom find myself in a situation where i believe myself right. But the example in the Wraith adventure is one of the few, where I actually believed that I could get away with pulling rank - both the Countess' and my liege lords rank, as well as state faith. :)
My point exactly. You tried to pull rank, and as you say, you saw yourself as the superior in the situation. What I find amusing is that people are surprised when the other part in the encounter don't see it the same way.
I'm not arguing for growelling or never using ones sueprior position. Just that people shouldn't throw a fit when it doesn't go all smoothly. As I said, if you keep in your mind that people are likely to feel superior to you (whether rightly or not), these things shouldn't come as a nasty surprise.
-
Yes but treating everyone as inferrior to you makes for lots of enemies unless everybody acts as true jerks. If but a minority acts like jerks they will get to be paria of sorts suffering in diplomatic dealings and forreign relations
-
Hehe, I see this post after I sent you Rashid's reply Andy.
And you confirm exactly the subtext that Rashid felt he was picking up... That if some deluded goblin shaman clings up a human or even another goblin, just for old times sake, the HA will be sweeping in with torches and burning the village to the ground.
Where did I say this? If the typical goblin goes raiding he will get stomped - that's all. Try to recall that the goblins were conquered only a few months ago - they still have millennia of seeing humans as prey to get over - and vice versa. So yes the traditional goblin method of the clan hungers, the clan raids is going to get a likely belligerent response, and it may as you say lead to excessive response from the less disciplined types - which most certainly does not include the Aegis. If the entire clan is following traditional goblins ways of raid, fight, recover, fight again they will see their warriors smashed by the Aegis, and be driven out - just as the Patriarch took the Sutren Hills by likely slaughtering its defenders and driving out those who refused to bow down, but the Aegis isn't going to just randomly start a slaughter for fun.
Please remember that goblins are not just humans with green skin - the link to Bjorn's description you provided should have made that clear. They are inherently evil - mercy is seen as weakness, laws as tools to protect the weak, neighbours as potential prey or rivals, etc, etc. Let us not mention the demon worship and so on which turns disdain and distrust into hatred and intolerance.
-
My word of wisdom of today would be to treat all regents in a similar manner. Just because you see them as further down the pecking order, they probably don't.
Oh indeed, the less the power the more tightly it is clutched. No one is more self important than the tinpot dictator with an ounce of power (think traffic wardens). But at the same time realpolitik rules and such people generally get very quiet around those far more powerful. The Countess was not totally outclassed in rank, and so particularly on her own turf could, and should, demand respect, but the captain certainly was out of his league and knew it...
It is certainly wrong to say 'I am king/High Priest/etc therefore I am right', but it is not wrong to say 'I am worthy of respect/fear and even when wrong people should tread softly'. Steering people around to your viewpoint is generally better than blatantly opposing them when they out rank you - at the very least you goad them into social disgrace and thus gain some social protection from their later wrath by being 'the reasonable one'.
Of course when players deal with their superiors (Avan , Boeruine, etc) they should remember the above doubly so - respect will be demanded and insolence punished one way or the other...
-
LG is no more good than NG or CG - and while paladins in particular will be extreme LG's, its better to represent alignment by a series of shifting focuses than a set of discrete blobs - a 'moderate' LG could be closer in alignment to a NG or LN or even true neutral than they might be to an extreme LG - think of it like a wheel. The alignment determines what spoke you follow from the centre, not how far along the spoke you go.
Most people would be fairly middle-ish if mapped onto the wheel, and so they might dip from actions typical to one alignment to those typical to another often - a guy who hates mornings might wake up CE if the builders are at it at 6 in the morning after a long nights drinking, but may mellow to LG after a coffee and a back rub from his missus....
OoC:
If I am not mistaken, a single Change Alignment action, in RoE, can not effectuate a shift from LG to N: two such actions are required; and, thus, the two alignments would not seem to be particularly adjacent.
-
Hehe, I see this post after I sent you Rashid's reply Andy.
And you confirm exactly the subtext that Rashid felt he was picking up... That if some deluded goblin shaman clings up a human or even another goblin, just for old times sake, the HA will be sweeping in with torches and burning the village to the ground.
Where did I say this? If the typical goblin goes raiding he will get stomped - that's all. Try to recall that the goblins were conquered only a few months ago - they still have millennia of seeing humans as prey to get over - and vice versa. So yes the traditional goblin method of the clan hungers, the clan raids is going to get a likely belligerent response, and it may as you say lead to excessive response from the less disciplined types - which most certainly does not include the Aegis. If the entire clan is following traditional goblins ways of raid, fight, recover, fight again they will see their warriors smashed by the Aegis, and be driven out - just as the Patriarch took the Sutren Hills by likely slaughtering its defenders and driving out those who refused to bow down, but the Aegis isn't going to just randomly start a slaughter for fun.
Please remember that goblins are not just humans with green skin - the link to Bjorn's description you provided should have made that clear. They are inherently evil - mercy is seen as weakness, laws as tools to protect the weak, neighbours as potential prey or rivals, etc, etc. Let us not mention the demon worship and so on which turns disdain and distrust into hatred and intolerance.
Please find my reply to this here: http://roe.twilightpeaks.net/forum/index.php?topic=314.0
-
My word of wisdom of today would be to treat all regents in a similar manner. Just because you see them as further down the pecking order, they probably don't.
Oh indeed, the less the power the more tightly it is clutched. No one is more self important than the tinpot dictator with an ounce of power (think traffic wardens). But at the same time realpolitik rules and such people generally get very quiet around those far more powerful. The Countess was not totally outclassed in rank, and so particularly on her own turf could, and should, demand respect, but the captain certainly was out of his league and knew it...
It is certainly wrong to say 'I am king/High Priest/etc therefore I am right', but it is not wrong to say 'I am worthy of respect/fear and even when wrong people should tread softly'. Steering people around to your viewpoint is generally better than blatantly opposing them when they out rank you - at the very least you goad them into social disgrace and thus gain some social protection from their later wrath by being 'the reasonable one'.
Of course when players deal with their superiors (Avan , Boeruine, etc) they should remember the above doubly so - respect will be demanded and insolence punished one way or the other...
Am I the only one thinking that Baron Kaven outranks the Countess in this matter? Of course it is HER land, and so far he has shown HER respect. It is the soldiers and their response that ranks me, especially when the Baron states that he INTENDS to speak to her later. ::)
Both the Countess and the Baron serve the same man. Ilien and Medoere is both technically a part of Diemeds demesne, and thus, (especially when giving orders backed by the Archduke) it is assumable that people at the very least respond with confusion, hesitation etc. instead of going hostile.
Add to that, that the RCS holds almost half the alotted number of temples in the province, and you have a 44% probability (on average) that each guardsman acting in a hostile manner toward the head of the RCS is a Ruornite... And as a last addendum, the Baron also holds a fraction of the Law in the land (Not much, but then one ninth of 200.000 people is quite a bit, if you think in those lines). It just adds up to complete nonsense for me. And the countess is sure to hear for it. :D
-
Well, the poor captain may just be in a really bad mood, or react to fear/unease with bluster and anger - and of course some people are just jerks. Assuming that everyone ill be rational all of the time is not a wise strategy - consider the story of the scorpion and the fox...
-
I concur. The same btw. goes for PC's ;D
-
OoC:If I am not mistaken, a single Change Alignment action, in RoE, can not effectuate a shift from LG to N: two such actions are required; and, thus, the two alignments would not seem to be particularly adjacent.
Well, draw the diagram - neutral is right in the middle, LG is part of the surrounding rim - human psychology is a study of a continuum not a series of discrete segments - a failing in the alignment system is in not looking at the concept of 'just about in this one' or 'some days I just wake up CE'.
How easy it is to change alignment depends on the relative size of the segments, if each neutral axis is a thin line then LG to CE could be a minor switch for someone very weakly aligned, if they are wide segments then it is highly unlikely that one would cross two boundaries at the same time.
-
OOC: DO + DM's family have been ill...
Hope you feel better soon, man. We've been fighting colds and sore throats here, and half my office is out. One of 'ems got mono, and another has been gone for two weeks with fever and vomiting, came back for 3 days, and left again with upper respiratory issues. Apparently it's just that time of the year. :(
-
Well, draw the diagram - neutral is right in the middle, LG is part of the surrounding rim - human psychology is a study of a continuum not a series of discrete segments - a failing in the alignment system is in not looking at the concept of 'just about in this one' or 'some days I just wake up CE'.
How easy it is to change alignment depends on the relative size of the segments, if each neutral axis is a thin line then LG to CE could be a minor switch for someone very weakly aligned, if they are wide segments then it is highly unlikely that one would cross two boundaries at the same time.
OoC:
Perhaps, in light of the Change Alignment rules, an alignment diagram for RoE might look thus . . .
| LG | — | LN | — | LE |
| | | | | | | | |
| NG | — | TN | — | NE |
| | | | | | | | |
| CG | — | CN | — | CE |
. . . with '—'-s and '|'-s representing possible single alignment shifts. If so, LG would be one shift away from LN and NG; two shifts away from CG, LE, and TN; three shifts away from CN and NE; and four shifts away from CE, no?
-
I'd prefer to have alignment mechanics follow setting than the other way around - most major characters will be fairly solidly in an alignment so the difference is immaterial, but the mechanics do the setting a disservice if followed at present with their assumption that a switch in alignment must be from one mid-point to another - most changes would be gradual and involve slipping from 'weak A' to 'weak B'.
In my view the alignment system in general is one of the weaker areas of the mechanics that should have been jettisoned several editions ago - how likely is it that most 'evil' beings think that they are 'wrong' - by the moral standards of a 'good' person the morality followed by the 'evil' character is wrong, but the evil person thinks likewise of the good person. Very few 'evil' people approach morality in the 'I choose to be a negative good person and thus prove my contempt for society', rather, they feel their morality is superior and that mercy, charity, etc are vices not virtues.
And let us not discuss the idiocy of the true neutral 'balance' arguments, or the differing interpretations of law and chaos...
-
[OOC: If my fellow adventures do not wish to answer before having their turn back from DM I can understand.
However an OOC post here or in mirror would be helpfull for me to understand where I stand in regard to having my posts in this thread ignored by my fellow adventures for a couple of weeks.]
Chill, Kasper. Where you stand is in an adventure that's ended. Bjorn's given us a wrap-up, the Countess is unlikely to feel any need to explain to you how she will deal with pirates in her own lands(especially as she's made it clear she intends for the RCS to handle future Shadow matters), and the new turn is close to starting. If you want to go after the Wraiths for a second try, talk to the RCS in the new season and arrange a new adventure - you can do that in dispatches. This particular one is wrapped up, and getting hostile and snippy isn't going to do anything but irritate people.
-
No hostility intended but I think I still have not gotten into the modus operandi for RoE II
OOC Is the adventure finished or do we get to settle what happend to the prisoners and what informations can be learned from them?
I was back then informed adventure was not ended. Now Bjørn have however posted that adventure have ended and that we are each allowed to make one last post.
This game is my second type of PBeM ever. But for RoE II I have only been playing TI3 on FFG's forum and lately on TI3 wiki forums. I have done that for 4+ years every day. There 30+ games run all the time and people are usually kicked from game after 3+ days of absence without notice. So I guess I am kind of drilled into an all together different pace and approach than the one we use in RoE II. I am still trying to adjust but apparently unsuccessfully.
Regarding asking the Countess about the pirates I too expect no answer from her but ever since she made a point of kicking Archduke Osoer because she was not involved prior to adventure I have been doing my best to brown-nose her to ensure she does not actively hinder us.
-
It's always been a problem that players don't necessarily answer for quite a while - if at all. Take that into account and take nothing personal, then you'll quickly get used to the strange pace of Pbem's. Things happen in bouts of action and then move at a snail's pace. RL demands it must be so.
The adventure is still open for one last remark and from there you can take it to the dispatches.
-
RoE is not a play-by-post type game;
It is a strategic game with elements of role-playing. The core component is the DO; everything else is just fluff. Enjoyable fluff to be sure, but the driving mechanic is and will always be, the DO.
That said, in this case its probably mostly the fault of the DM...once a few weeks pass without activity, one cannot expect players to be instantly ready for action again.
-
I have just read the adventure, my tentative connection to Internet permitting, and pfew, I am blown. It's a very enjoyable piece of lecture!