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RoE Development => Regent Guide => : X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander) February 22, 2009, 03:04:11 AM
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It seems there should be a +5 DDC modifier for promoting advisors to henchmen, otherwise all henchmen effectively become 5 levels higher in the future. There is no reason currently not to hire them as advisors first (getting the -5 DDC bonus) and then promoting them later... does not even take an extra action.
The Hire help action states that there is a -5 DDC bonus for hiring advisors. If I understand it correctly, these advisors would have a penalty to administrate if given an adminstrative post directly (through the decree: grant promotion action). However, if I make them henchmen first and then give them an adminstrative post, they have no penalty. The only reason the ever hire a hireling directly (as opposed to an advisor) is to save the action to make them henchmen before giving them a post... since it is court actions we are talking about, -5 DDC bonus seems a little much for using one court action less.
This seems to be working a little counterintuitive, it seems like a "hole" in the rules. I think there should be a bonus for hiring advisors instead of hirelings, but they should then be more difficult to turn into henchmen.
Views?
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Silence you fool! ;D
Perhaps you are correct though. Or maybe there should simply be a cool-down on promoting them?
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Heh, I taught yall well ::)
It's a rules loophole certainly, but then again it is a logical approach. You don't hire people as trusted assistants right away.
Perhaps a proper way to handle it (and remove all confusion as to what is what) would be to create four categories and you need a grant to update their status:
Advisors - only use knowledge skills on your behalf.
Hirelings - can also use ply trade on your behalf. Get -2 on admin, military and other positions of influence rolls.
Henchmen - Use 1 character action on your behalf.
Lieutenants - Use 1 character action on your behalf + 1 bonus lieutenant action (each realm only gets 1 bonus lieutenant action total)
In that way you don't jumpstart a character directly from advisor to henchman.
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OoC:
Perhaps, in the context of this discussion, it would be helpful to consider the potential benefits of promoting an able assistant from hireling to henchman status?
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Advisors and Hirelings have a maximum of one action; Henchmen up to 3 total actions (could be1 Character Action, 1 Lieutenant action and 1 administrator/ply trade action).
maximum number of Advisors/hirelings is your court level - if court goes below that number some of them will leave - Henchmen do not count against court (but against something else not entirely clear to me)
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Advisors and Hirelings have a maximum of one action
OoC:
Advisors and hirelings can potentially provide three actions in a given turn.
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Current rules:
Advisors: Use knowledge skills on your behalf. You can grant positions to advisors, but they get -2 on admin rolls.
Covered by court cost.
Grant promotion action promotes to henchman status.
Hirelings: Don't get an admin penalty.
Hirelings conducts one character action on your behalf each turn. Hirelings won't risk life and limb for you.
Covered by court cost.
Grant promotion action promotes to henchman status.
Henchmen: Same as hirelings, but higher loyalty and will go into dire straits by your side. Henchman status required in order to become lieutenant.
Covered by personal leadership.
Suggested rules:
Advisor: Advisors won't assume a granted position. They only use the advisor action on your behalf.
Grant promotion action promotes to hireling status.
Hirelings: Hirelings get -2 on admin and military rolls (due to being outside of the "circle of trust").
Grant promotion action promotes to henchman status (as before).
Henchmen: The same as before.
Lieut: The same as before.
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Henchmen: Same as hirelings, but higher loyalty and will go into dire straits by your side. Henchman status required in order to become lieutenant.
Covered by personal leadership.
OoC:
So, there may be reasons to promote an able assistant from hireling to henchman status; but an hireling is already quite similar to an henchman, no?
Still, if the potential to turn advisors (and hirelings) into henchman rather quickly and/or rather easily is deemed to be a problem, then perhaps the following might be a decent addition to the current Grant: Promotion rules: The DDC assumes an advisor/hireling, who is very well known to the regent, or a follower. . . . Add 5 to the DDC for an advisor/hireling, who is fairly well known. . . . Add 10 to the DDC for an advisor/hireling, who is not well known.
[In the style of Create Lieutenant, no?]
However, the above addition could perhaps be coupled with a reduction in the base DDC of Grant: Promotion (to 7, for example), to keep the total DDC significantly lower than the corresponding DDC of Create Lieutenant.
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The current difference is this:
A hireling is different from a henchman that he/she is supported by the court, whereas a henchman is solely supported by affection/loyalty/ambition towards the regent.
A hireling will adventure, but won't go on really dangerous missions on behalf of the regent - like the henchman would.
And that's it. I suggest remove the option for advisors to be admins and give their negative modifier to the hireling. Making the henchman even more useful than he already is.
In addition to making it one step harder to create lieutenants, it will remove the discrepancy in the hire help rules. You may hire an aa as a hireling at first, but it's alot easier to acquire them as advisors first. However it will cost you an additional court action in the long run.
The real problem ain't the swiftness of it all, it's the fact that advisors and hirelings are jumbled together and the difference often forgotten. So either remove the advisor altogether and call them all hirelings with different specialties - or separate the two completely is my pov.
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last round I recruited a hireling
This round I will make him a henchman and appoint him to an adminsitrative role.
So, lets say in Jan of 2008 I meet a guy I like and hire him.
In March of 2008, like him enough to make him a henchman.
In March of 2008, I make him an Administrator.
In July of 2008, he can start providing me with an adminsitrative benefit.
1GB to hire, 1GB to promote to henchman, 1GB to promote to Administrator.
That's 3GB and 3 turns to see much of a benefit, except he has to be such low level, that he may fail at adminsitration all the time anyway.
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I am with Jon, personally.
In the sense that able-assistance is hired by the regent and recieve some monetary benefit or some other material support; all able-assistance is a hireling of some sort. The distinction comes only in how far they are willing to support you and there are a number of varied logical uses for such help. Henchmen and LTs are only a subset of the hireling classification.
For Instance:
Hireling: Architect -- expends character actions each turn to support a building project of your.
Hireling: Administrator -- expends a ply-trade: adminstration action on your behalf. (Requires a Grant - Promotion Action)
Hireling: Shipwright -- expends character actions to support Commission actions
Hireling: Advisor -- can support you through the usage of Advisor actions
Hireling: Sage -- can expend research actions on your behalf
Hireling: Commander -- can support you through adventures for warfare only (Requires a Grant - Promotion Action)
Hireling: Adventurers (General) -- adventure on your behalf in numerous moderately dangerous situations
Hireling: Adventurers (Special) -- have special affliations and/or relationship with you and are therefore willing to undertake significant dangerous tasks on your behalf.
Etc, etc, etc, etc... the options are theoretically limited only by what bjorn and Jon let us get away with OR your domain resources allow.
Notice that anytime the Hireling has broad authority within a realm (commanders, generals, administrators, etc), Grant - Promotions are neccessary to give them the appropiate authority.
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Then theres the hints about only being able to support a certain number of Henchmen depending on level and leadership score - I suggest to either remove that limit or make it known - currently I know not if I can make anymore charaters into Henchmen
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A Henchmen is effectively a d&d Cohort. So of course, there are limitations on how many you can have (though a regent will always have more than a regular character, afterall power breeds sycophants). There use to be a table for all of this, but I think if you are a level 7-9 character, it would be very strange to have more than 2-5 henchmen (usually one of which will be your personal guard, another your LT and the last someone else). All will likely be your level or less (including your EL which is +2 for more regents).
Additionally, a domain will typically only have have a number of hirelings equal to court expenditure. BUT henchmen, followers and LTs do not count towards this total.
I don't think there is any need to remove this limitation.
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I meant either remove the limit or, and I prefer this, make the limits known from a tabel or some such.
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We'll do it on a case by case basis and warn you if you're getting close to the limit. Perhaps increasing the DDC incrementally for grant promotion once you've reached a certain number.
It's all definable by a variety of issues, some of them rpg oriented. A henchman might serve you out of personal loyalty and not count against any limit, another might be someone who's gotten onboard solely for the power and glory, he'll bugger off if you start courting too many henchmen (lessens his piece of the pie). A third party may have a specific agenda and only be on board for a certain time. A fourth might demand alot of money for his time. Etc. etc.
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The current difference is this:
A hireling is different from a henchman that he/she is supported by the court, whereas a henchman is solely supported by affection/loyalty/ambition towards the regent.
A hireling will adventure, but won't go on really dangerous missions on behalf of the regent - like the henchman would.
And that's it. I suggest remove the option for advisors to be admins and give their negative modifier to the hireling. Making the henchman even more useful than he already is.
In addition to making it one step harder to create lieutenants, it will remove the discrepancy in the hire help rules. You may hire an aa as a hireling at first, but it's alot easier to acquire them as advisors first. However it will cost you an additional court action in the long run.
The real problem ain't the swiftness of it all, it's the fact that advisors and hirelings are jumbled together and the difference often forgotten. So either remove the advisor altogether and call them all hirelings with different specialties - or separate the two completely is my pov.
I fully support above suggestions for rule changes. Of the two sets of suggested changes I prefer the first (removal of the possibility for advisors to be admins)
I would like to have the changed rules apply after a couple of seasons advance notice as to give all players the option of adjusting their plans in good time
And that's it. I suggest remove the option for advisors to be admins and give their negative modifier to the hireling. Making the henchman even more useful than he already is.
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Which version?
Remove the difference between advisor and hireling?
Or add another "level" of able assistance, advisors now being the lowest level of aa?
It's in any case Bjørn's final call, so fire away with the suggestions and/or opinions.
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OoC:
An other possible manner of addressing the Hire Help "loophole": lower (e.g., to 2 or 3) or eradicate the modifier, which hiring advisors currently provides.
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I'm against anything that makes it more difficult to hire npc's :D
Anyway, what would be nice is to have some kind of transparancy regarding how well it works to establish a relationship before hiring the npc.
Someone suggested using research and adventure actions to gain a hireling. The problem is that the only modifier I have any idea of what does is the +2 modifier from the adventure... which is irrelevant if you want a good heir. It's still going to be heineously expensive.
Currently the only ones who can consider high level hirelings are guild holders, who have so much cash. Per the regent guide, it is impossible to take 20 on hire help actions.
Given the tone of the setting though, it makes perfect sense that it's nigh-impossible to bring high level npcs into the game on your side. I wish that the DC's for hiring competent assistants (generals, administrators, etc) were a little lower, but I have very little experience with this game. I understood that Bjørn removed a lot of skilled assistance from RoE I to RoE II... so I guess there's a reason for the high dcs.
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Able-assistance tends to be abused, I think.
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Able-assistance tends to be abused, I think.
Really?
I wish I knew how to abuse able-assistance!
Any specific examples? ;)
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Henchman status required in order to become lieutenant.
OoC: Not required.
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OoC:
In general, I do not think that the able assistance rules are in need of serious revision. Is it not sufficiently clear in Chapter 2 of the Regent Guide that there are five types of able assistant, which fit into three categories?: advisors and hirelings; followers and cohorts/henchmen; and lieutenants.
Perhaps the Hire Help "loophole" might even be left alone, letting regents wonder what might be the consequences of swiftly promoting new advisors to henchman (or lieutenant) status.
Also, here is a question, which might be considered: other factors (character level, administration skill, etc.) being equal, why should henchmen be more efficient administrators than hirelings? (In the current rules, they are equally capable of performing administration . . . which might be preferable, no?)
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Henchman status required in order to become lieutenant.
OoC: Not required.
You're quite right, you can make lesser aa's lieutenants, but the DDC goes up.
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Also, remember that hirelings and advisors count against the court expenditure, Hencmen and Lieutenants do not.
However, Henchmen are limited by the regents level, although this is not really enforced.
In a situation where a regent hoards henchmen in an obvious ploy to circumvent the court limitations, the GMs will probably step in and say no.
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Hmm, two threads on similar topics...
The question to me is 'what can you do with them'. I see 5 things.
1. Huff and fluff. (My favourite of course)
2. MacGuffins to reduce domain costs. (The apparent worry)
3. To carry out freebie domain actions.
4. Adventuring / War.
5. Heirs and spares.
These are all very different things. #2 & #3 are domain level and the role currently appears optimised by an expert with maybe 1 good stat, skill focus on administration, with level then almost irrelevant.
#4 & #5 on the other hand want an adventurer, either elite or heroic, mid-high level preferably (certainly for #5). At the same time as being a lot harder to get, they give a lot less - indeed a good heir is basically the NPC with most to gain by betraying the PC and conquering the domain - in the case of a powerful general possibly literally - hardly an unalloyed benefit.
I'd suggest splitting possibly the action - a henchman then at most adding +2 to an administration check or substituting for the regent in a regent action (rather than adding a free action); while the administrative hireling role reflected instead a small group of court minions adept at handling some aspect of the domain. Alternatively the hireling role could possibly even be subsumed within the court mechanic (each GB of court spend gives you a chance to reduce one element of your costs, focus several chances on one area if you want to...)
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I'd suggest splitting possibly the action - a henchman then at most adding +2 to an administration check or substituting for the regent in a regent action (rather than adding a free action); while the administrative hireling role reflected instead a small group of court minions adept at handling some aspect of the domain. Alternatively the hireling role could possibly even be subsumed within the court mechanic (each GB of court spend gives you a chance to reduce one element of your costs, focus several chances on one area if you want to...)
I for one am happy with the current system. It’s a mix between strategic number crunching and the uncertainty of role-playing. I’m all fresh in this game but the current system appeals to me and I believe it works ok.
There is also the balance of how much work as system should demand from the DMs. More role-playing, more npcs often will be more work, more pure math can be less work as .xls can do the job automatically.
I like it the way it is now :-)
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Hmm, two threads on similar topics...
The question to me is 'what can you do with them'. I see 5 things.
1. Huff and fluff. (My favourite of course)
2. MacGuffins to reduce domain costs. (The apparent worry)
3. To carry out freebie domain actions.
4. Adventuring / War.
5. Heirs and spares.
These are all very different things. #2 & #3 are domain level and the role currently appears optimised by an expert with maybe 1 good stat, skill focus on administration, with level then almost irrelevant.
#4 & #5 on the other hand want an adventurer, either elite or heroic, mid-high level preferably (certainly for #5). At the same time as being a lot harder to get, they give a lot less - indeed a good heir is basically the NPC with most to gain by betraying the PC and conquering the domain - in the case of a powerful general possibly literally - hardly an unalloyed benefit.
I'd suggest splitting possibly the action - a henchman then at most adding +2 to an administration check or substituting for the regent in a regent action (rather than adding a free action); while the administrative hireling role reflected instead a small group of court minions adept at handling some aspect of the domain. Alternatively the hireling role could possibly even be subsumed within the court mechanic (each GB of court spend gives you a chance to reduce one element of your costs, focus several chances on one area if you want to...)
Interesting - Simplification may be in order; the current AA/admin rules are more detailed/complex than their importance warrants.
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Slightly different subject - what is the DDC for granting a hireling an Administration position, like Chamberlain?
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Nice question.. Surprisingly in Regent's Guide there is no DDC specified...
I guess 10? (just like grant promotion?)
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Nice question.. Surprisingly in Regent's Guide there is no DDC specified...
I guess 10? (just like grant promotion?)
I have made that assumtion, and my action to promote succeeded last season, so yea.
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This season I've got
promote hireling to henchmen
promote hireling to henchmen
assign title
assign title
We end up using a TON of actions to get those 10% discounts.......
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This season I've got
promote hireling to henchmen
promote hireling to henchmen
assign title
assign title
We end up using a TON of actions to get those 10% discounts.......
Ahem, chance of a 10% discount.
But then, how much do you save on a good 'administrate:tin cans' per season? Compare the cost in GB, RP and actions of appointing your administrator with ruling up 2-3 levels of a holding to get the equivalent income boost...
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My Chamberlain is making a killing... ;D
OOC: Jon, delete this post :)
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My Chamberlain is making a killing... ;D
I thought that your sister was the one doing that? Man, Elenie's a mean realm...
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My Chamberlain is making a killing... ;D
I thought that your sister was the one doing that? Man, Elenie's a mean realm...
Indeed!
OOC: Kill this post too if you please. :)
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Keep the chatter in the OoC section please.
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Hi guys, just to touch base and check if I got this right.
With the Current rules, these are the DDC's to Hire Help:
As Advisor:
NPC Class (Expert, Aristocrat or Warrior) = 5
- With Magic (Adept) = 10
Expert Class (Nomad, Blademaster, Knight, Scout, Guilder) = 10
- With Magic (Skald, Mystic, Magician) = 15
Heroic Class (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Noble, Rogue) = 20
- With Magic (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard) = 25
As Hireling: - Add 5 to the DDC of above
Add +1 DDC/lvl.
Add further +5 to DDC if its a magic user that can cast Realm Magic.
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No...there are two 'categories' of classes;
NPC (Professional) classes: Expert, Aristocrat etc.
PC (Elite) class: Fighter, sorcerer, guilder, scout, magician etc.
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Ok, so its like this then?
With the Current rules, these are the DDC's to Hire Help:
As Advisor:
Professional (Expert, Aristocrat or Warrior) = 5
- With Magic (Adept) = 10
PC (Elite) (Nomad, Blademaster, Knight, Scout, Guilder, Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Noble, Rogue) = 10
- With Magic (Skald, Mystic, Magician, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard) = 15
As Hireling: - Add 5 to the DDC of above
Add +1 DDC/lvl.
Add further +5 to DDC if its a magic user that can cast Realm Magic.
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Sadly your wizard/sorcerer will also need true magic (another +5), possibly your priests - I'm not sure if priestly magic is considered 'true' magic. A human capable of casting true magic must, of course, also be blooded (at least +5).
Your spellcaster capable of casting realm spells will also need to be able to use ritual magic, I have no idea what that is, but its a prerequisite - and adds another +5.
So a wizard of your home culture: DDC 10 (base) +5 elite +5 tainted bloodline +5 spell casting +5 true magic +level = DDC 30 + level
If they can cast realm spells (so level 5 minimum to get the skills at L8, ignore feats for now) add ritual and realm magic for DDC = 40 + level.
As has been said to me repeatedly, these characters are rare - so hire, say, a L3 character, train them up to L8 for the second extra feat, and hope that nobody pinches them. Or try Alan's suggested route of hiring them with unspent feats and skill points and bump them just one level to clean up, if Bjorn/Jon can be bribed to let you get away with it.
I'm still hoping I'm wrong on the above, but figure that any DC over 25-30 is prohibitively expensive, particularly as you can't take 10 or 20 on the action.
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DDC still needs to be looked upon; but here are some hints that could help:
- Diplomacy with CoS to gain a bonus to the Hire action
- Good court, good stability
- Supportive actions by AAs (when hiring)
- Good action description (when hiring)
Start looking for a human (anuirean) wizard recently graduated (lvl 3-5) with a weak bloodline and no realm magic. With a little influence and the above bonuses you should be able to get the character.
You're not supposed to be able to pick up a Kaleiman-like figure from the street; who can start ruling sources and casting realm spells of 5+ lvl.
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You're not supposed to be able to pick up a Kaleiman-like figure from the street; who can start ruling sources and casting realm spells of 5+ lvl.
Dang, I wanted to hire someone who can take on the magian for a few GB ::)
The way I see it, anyone close in power to the main PC should be very hard to get hold of - why wouldn't they be running the domain? Even as henchmen they are going to be rivals too.
That said at present level is almost irrelevant to the cost, which sounds wrong somehow. Meh, at one hire per season without DC spirals I'm a way off hiring the Iron King anyway...
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That IS an interesting point; the revised DDC will focus more on NPC lvl (low, medium, high).
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That IS an interesting point; the revised DDC will focus more on NPC lvl (low, medium, high).
You could use an arithmetic progression for level - a L1 priest isn't easy to find (well, except for priest regents probably), but is surely easier to recruit than a L9 fighter who is happy to serve the regent - frankly at L9+ they should already have rank and position...
So for example costs might go:
L1: +1 DDC L2: +3 DDC, L3: +6 DDC, L4: +10 DDC, L5: +15 DDC, L6: +21, L7: +28 DDC, L8: +36 DDC...
To keep it simple you could reduce the number of steps - so a regent hires a low/med/high level Pc but doesn't know exactly what they will get
L1-3: DDC +5. L4-6: DDC +15. L7-9: DDC +25/30, diplomacy necessary, etc.
You can get someone at the start of their career under either progression method, but add mid level it starts getting expensive, at 'regent' sort of level it gets horrible.
The questions this poses are: 1) what should base DDC be? Should a bog-standard L1 or 2 fighter be a take 10 sort of action, or a toughie? Should magic be far ,far, rarer - and if so should that be reflected with a DDC modifier (as present), or just a 'the college/seminary produces 'x' candidates a year' DM-whim sort of modifier?
Should the current modifiers for magic, etc be subsumed into level barring realm spells? Spells, True magic, and Ritual magic assume high level already to be effective so I'm not sure it isn't double counting with the level mod to pull them out; but only the shift from 'adventure level' to realm spells is a 'step change' in power at domain level - and a paragon capable of casting such spells must already have some senior rank in a temple or a wizard realm to have got the practice of casting realm spells, suggesting that an adventure should be required, or diplomacy, or some sort of major recognition for an internal promotion.
'Don't think you can ping a realm spell person' is very necessary - as a priest regent I 'am' the ruler's go-to for realm spells, if the ruler could ping a moderate cleric then suddenly I have major competition... I'd rather it was a 'bribe the DM' sort of difficulty than a 'add 'x' to DDC' though - but obviously that puts more pressure on the DM team...
Personally I'd see different culture as a fluff thing - and likely a distinctly mixed blessing. An elf or goblin looey would cause havok in many realms... So increasing the cost by 10 RP (i.e. +5 DDC) seems unnecessary from a balance viewpoint although I can see the point - most hirelings, etc should be Anuireans because they are the locals.
The issue is 'advisers' - they probably wind up quite cheap under the above system as they have no magic, are low level, etc - even though they probably have a greater effect on domain-level play than any other hireling other than a realm-spell capable wizard/priest.
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The modifiders for ritual magic and true magic and such are over-complicating things.
I'd like to see that the modifers were simpler, or that we simply list the base classes and their cost, and limit modifiers to those that have ingame value. - fx. a blooded caster able to do realm magic might warrant a higher cost.
But to add to the DC for a ranger type, who will never cast a realmspell in his life but is no more or less valuable than a fighter, just means there are hardly any ranger assistants.
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hunh?
Neils, any character who can cast 'True Magic' warrants a higher DDC in my opinion.
A normal Ranger or Paladin or Cleric or Bard or Sorcerer/Wizard, without the neccessarily skills for realm magic is worth considerably less at the domain level, though not at the non-domain level necessarily.
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To keep it simple you could reduce the number of steps - so a regent hires a low/med/high level Pc but doesn't know exactly what they will get
L1-3: DDC +5. L4-6: DDC +15. L7-9: DDC +25/30, diplomacy necessary, etc.
I was thinking along those lines; it also fits well with the skills and such being based on low/med/high level.
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hunh?
Neils, any character who can cast 'True Magic' warrants a higher DDC in my opinion.
A normal Ranger or Paladin or Cleric or Bard or Sorcerer/Wizard, without the neccessarily skills for realm magic is worth considerably less at the domain level, though not at the non-domain level necessarily.
Yes, I completely agree, I do not mean cheaper, I mean simpler, the current system is just too complicated. You can only do True magic if you are Blooded, so the Wizard and the Sorcerer are Always blooded, yes?
In addition, to do Realm Magic, you always have to be able to do Ritual Magic, so instead of 2 +5 DDC modifiers, why not just have 1 +10 DDC modifier?
So you could make a list of the classes, and next to each bundle you put the DDC for that class bundle.
The only additional variables would be Realm Magic yes/no for a further +10 DDC, and level span.
On the topic of level spans, I'd like to see the skill spans implemented somewhat too, or atleast the relevant ones.
A Sage is not important, just flavor, but the skills Administration, Warcraft and Command are the ones that a hireling should be displaying on his C.V.
Fx. to get someone who is Expert in One of these skills, it might be the default setting. To get one that is Expert in two of these skills might be +5 DDC.
To get a Master in one of these skills might be a +5 to DDC. Noone may Master more than 1 skill pr. default.
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So here is a suggestion for the new way of presenting it. The actual rules are malleable, but kept as they currently are where I was able:
Hire Help [Court]
You attract skilled persons to the regent’s court, to act as advisers or hirelings.
Type: Court – You can take a number of court actions each turn equal to your Court Expenditure (minimum 1).
Cost: 1GB.
Difficulty: The DDC is 10 + the modifiers explained below.
If using this action to attract more than one character, the DDC is 10 + the group’s ECL. This rule is applicable only to groups of characters (an adventuring party, a group of bodyguards); for more important individuals, one action must be taken per character hired.
Modifiers: Court, Stability; Special - see below.
The base DDC varies based on the class of the character you are hiring:
Aristocrat, Expert or Warrior are DDC 10
Adept, Barbarian, Bard, Blademaster, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Guilder, Knight, Magician, Monk, Mystic, Noble, Nomad, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue Scout, Skald, are DDC 15
Wizard and Sorcerer are DDC 20
In addition, you may apply the following modifiers, for further abilities as specified:
If the character is a spellcaster and is able to, or will be able to, cast Realm Magic, add +10 to the DDC.
- If you pick this choice, then you must also buy a bloodline for the character. Wizards and Sorcerers already have the cost of a tainted bloodline included in their DDC.
If the character is a Master in one of the skills Administration, Warcraft or Command, add +5 to the DDC.
If the character is an Expert in two of the skills Administration, Warcraft or Command, add +5 to the DDC.
- By default, it is assumed a character is Expert in no more than one of those three skills.
For starting level, select the applicable modifier for the characters level:
Level 1-3, add a +3 to DDC.
Level 4-6, add a +6 to DDC.
Level 7-9, add a +9 to DDC.
You cannot hire a character above level 9 without GM input.
Blooded individuals are rare (beyond what their ECL would indicate). Add 5 to the DDC for each level of bloodline strength possessed by the Scion (tainted, weak, minor, or major; characters with great and true bloodlines are not generally available using this action).
Add 5 or more to DDC if trying to hire a character of a race/culture not normally found in your court.
The DM may allow you to subtract 5 (or more) from the DDC when you are hiring for only a defined period of time (or a specific task), such as for one year or a single turn.
Subtract 5 from the DDC if you are hiring an adviser (as opposed to a hireling).
Add 5 to the DDC for each additional use of this action during the same turn.
Influence: Yes – You can use influence on hire help actions.
Restrictions: You may take 10, but you may not take 20 on hire help actions.
Check: The target character joins your court for an indefinite period of time as an adviser or hireling.
See the rules for able assistance in Chapter 2: Domains for additional details of what you can use such characters for.
Special: Characters of low (1st to 3rd), medium (4th to 6th) level and high (7th to 9th) level, are assumed to be paid for by your court expenditure.
Very high (10th-12th) level and legendary (13th to 15th) level characters often demand additional (1GB) payment each turn to remain with you.
Near-epic (16th-20th) and epic (21st+) level characters are so rare as to be handled on a case-by-case basis by the DM.
Powerful spellcaster might require 1 or more extra GBs in extra payment. They are handled on case-by-case basis by the DM.
Also keep in mind that you maximum number of advisers/hireling is limited by your court expenditure (the DM may allow adventurers to be hired for defined periods of time, in excess of court expenditure).
Note: The player is more than welcome to help make up any characters he hires (in the RoE PBeM players are required to come up with character descriptions and basic statistics; otherwise the action automatically fails), but the DM has the final say.
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Hmm, I'm torn.
You could say that any L'x' character is equally useful - so a mage might be able to cast realm spells, but a warrior can lead an army. Or you could say that realm spells are 'something special' so make them cost more / harder to find. Since realm spells should however have similar cost:benefit ratio's to normal domain actions, the need for the extra cost is at first glance uncertain.
However, since any spellcaster able to cast realm spells has to be able to cast at least L3 spells, (+8 on 4 skills, 3 feats - L5 minimum probably more...) they can actually cast 3 realm spells a round, so possibly it is right to add the DC since they have more 'actions' to support the regent with.
In practice however, for wizards such people are so rare, as to make hiring via an action impossible - half of all wizards outside of elven lands are already source regents per canon, they are not hireling type people.
Priests similarly are not easy to get hold of - any priest able to cast realm spells is, or should, be a very senior person in their church - someone seen as touched by the gods. They have a calling - I can see a temple domain able to 'recruit internally' i.e. train them up, but that's about all - and would recommend a long delay on their 'arriving' to reflect the learning process, so again the DC mod sounds wrong - it should be RP/DM bribery.
As to repeat hires. Why is it harder to hire a second person in the same round, surely the advertising for the first will make subsequent hire's easier?
For example, the Knights of Haelyn want to hire some more bricks, Sir Guy holds a Grand Tourney, advertises for 2-3 seasons in advance (1 GB and 5 RP per turn) spends, say, 30 RP + 5 GB for the event itself, and makes an attempt to hire a kick-ass god of war on a DC mod of -25 for the spend. His second action that season is to try and hire a captain for an archery company, his third to hire a master pikeman. Surely those latter two hires should actually be easier for the first hire, not harder? Frankly once you have spread the word like that you will get 2-3 great people you need to appeal to for any given post, 20-30 pretty good people you would settle for that want to work for you, and 200-300 losers, nutters, and charity cases.
And think of the S&C - anyone who is anyone, and everyone who wants to be someone will be there, regents should be fighting off people trying to get noticed and win a post...
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To keep it simple you could reduce the number of steps - so a regent hires a low/med/high level Pc but doesn't know exactly what they will get
L1-3: DDC +5. L4-6: DDC +15. L7-9: DDC +25/30, diplomacy necessary, etc.
I was thinking along those lines; it also fits well with the skills and such being based on low/med/high level.
I would dearly like to hire an heir for my regent; my regent is an old man and his predecesor got murdered so I like to be prepared.
Hence I would like to see the hirehelp action fixed as soon as possible - preferably before turning in my DO for turn #63
I want it so much that I would not at all mind waiting getting my turn #62 and get the rules fixed. Since finding an heir is, I assume, a long term project it suffers a lot from getting further delayed by rules update (mind you I support updating rules)
Pretty please ::)
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Finding an heir should be the main pre-occupation of any ruler, and if not them, then their court. An heir indicates stability, continuity, and, fo course, favouritism and opposition...
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I think this makes total sense for a landed domain, but I tend to think of non-landed domains a little differently.
Priests do not rule through 'divine authority' per se, but rather through consensus. It makes sense that the clergy would gather to appoint their heir, though hopefully the previous regent worked hard to ensure a particular choice, but it is by no means 'unilateral' per se, unlike a typically landed-domain.
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I think this makes total sense for a landed domain, but I tend to think of non-landed domains a little differently.
Priests do not rule through 'divine authority' per se, but rather through consensus. It makes sense that the clergy would gather to appoint their heir, though hopefully the previous regent worked hard to ensure a particular choice, but it is by no means 'unilateral' per se, unlike a typically landed-domain.
Hmm, smoke signals from the Vatican? Temples are intensely political - I wouldn't expect any one to be 'nominated' as such - but the list of potentials could be very short, and the favourite can probably rig things to their advantage (see the last Pope's introduction, sermon, closing advice, etc).
Personally I think that my main gripe at present, is that it is a '1 action' event - I'd rather spend several court actions over a few seasons to reflect training and selection (and of course, bring down the vast cost!) as this is not an off-the-cuff sort of thing - indeed hiring any classed person of reasonable level should be drawn out.
Perhaps a 2 stage process, 1) court actions to find/train suitable candidates, 2) hire action to get them accepted by the order.
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Getting accepted has to happen before the "coronation" - If not taken care of, the mechanic of ROE is dropping Prosperity, Stability and/or Regency.
Lets not make up more actions... :)
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Having a ruled a temple domain, it was never like you said.
a. Regent Realizes they need an Heir
b. Regent recruits a short-list of people .
c. Training -- I send them on adventures, Training Actions, have them use Adventures to Support Actions (another way they gain experience), etc.
d. Regent dies.
If Heir--
2. Heir Takes over
If no Heir--
2. Domain Gathers to determine -- it can be a lengthy process -- but it depends on circumstances. The OA was without a regent for a while, as was the Holy Order. The OIT is very strange in how they do it (and it can be lengthy, I think Briesen took a while for everything to fall correctly).
3. Diplomacy -- Diplomacy -- Diplomacy -- Diplomacy: Only a fool assumes that everything is fine after the transition, it is prudent to use a few diplomacy actions to introduce the regent and/or layout the framework for your rule. Furthermore, when the transition happens, your stability begins to shift negatively.
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Getting accepted has to happen before the "coronation" - If not taken care of, the mechanic of ROE is dropping Prosperity, Stability and/or Regency.
Lets not make up more actions... :)
It can happen afterward, actually.
Such was technically the case realistically with the Maire of the ETN, she was a compromise candidate, and as such probably needed to spend time ensuring her domain's loyalty for a time.
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Getting accepted has to happen before the "coronation" - If not taken care of, the mechanic of ROE is dropping Prosperity, Stability and/or Regency.
Lets not make up more actions... :)
It can happen afterward, actually.
Such was technically the case realistically with the Maire of the ETN, she was a compromise candidate, and as such probably needed to spend time ensuring her domain's loyalty for a time.
Yup, I think we agree, what I meant was, that if you do Not do it before hand, then you will suffer losses afterwards, as you describe.
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Nope. You WILL suffer loss while your domain is 'uncontrolled' OR 'Regent-less'. You also can suffer MORE losses if your regent is accepted by the domain fully.
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Changing regent is always a troubled time for the domain; the question is HOW troubled. The more prepared, the less trouble. For one example, check the stability section in the RG.
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Getting accepted has to happen before the "coronation" - If not taken care of, the mechanic of ROE is dropping Prosperity, Stability and/or Regency.
Lets not make up more actions... :)
I was casual in the term, sorry. Basically I agree with the diplomacy point, I see it as:
Stage 1. Get the person noticed by the wider domain - some act of heroism, etc.
Stage 2. Show off their strength, piety, etc to cement their reputation in the domain.
Stage 3. Show off their leadership skills to get the wider domain seeing them as a potential leader - this probably involves giving them some sort of senior rank (master of the 7th spell, general, head of the inquisition, etc).
Stage 4. Make a major effort to get them recognised as heir.
Stage 5. They then have to actually take over...
But on a wider point on hiring, the 'click, I have a tank' approach is unhelpful, I'd rather have 3 or 4 actions with moderate DC than one with an insanely high DC, this would a) allow the cost to be 'touchable' and b) infer that the NPC is slowly being courted / introduced to the realm and so slowly winning over doubters in the domain.
The latter method might take a year or so (depending on how many similar court actions a season you can take) and would need you to track the actions (Fred the Just, promoted hireling - ally - henchman - lieutenant - heir?) but shouldn't be a problem to deal with.
Of course, you wind up with different classes of 'employee' under this method:
Hireling: Casual employee from time to time, has their own projects, may also work for other domains. Can aid actions, but is not fully accepted/trusted so does so at a penalty.
Ally: Firmly allied to domain, may have some of their own projects, but seen as one of the domain. Often called on to aid in domain actions.
Henchman: Well known in the domain as linked to the regent, some minor personal authority.
Lieutenant: Senor member of the domain in their own right. May carry out domain actions in their own right.
Heir: Seen as the heir / one of the potential heirs if the regent dies.
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Lets not introduce a new status of AA. "Ally"
As it is now, perceived by me that is ;-)
Advisor: Casual employee from time to time, has their own projects, may also work for other domains. Can aid actions, but is not fully accepted/trusted so does so at a penalty.
Hireling: Firmly allied to domain, may have some of their own projects, but seen as one of the domain. Often called on to aid in domain actions
Henchman: Well known in the domain as linked to the regent, some minor personal authority.
Lieutenant: Senor member of the domain in their own right. May carry out domain actions in their own right.
Heir: Seen as the heir / one of the potential heirs if the regent dies.
Heh I've used Andy's descriptions and swapped the Hirelings for the "Ally" of Andy. Inserted Advisor where Andy has Hireling and voila - everything is back to normal :)
I think that the process of an heir to take over should vary great from domain type to domain type; Should also vary between domains of same type:
In short while I appreciate the suggested procedures for an heir to take over I think it should only serve as a guideline and be something the individual player work out possible coordinated with DM's
The first born son to a Sovereign is something entirely else than choosing between some of the bishops for a temple. Also thers a great difference, in my oppinion, from a planned change of leadership wher the old regent pamper the chosen heir and to something unexpectedly that happen when a regent gets himself killed being a hero on adventure.
And yes I notice the adventures of Bjørn are highly lethal. I dont say I wanna change that but I liked the way Bjørn gave a warning before the Vampire adventure started; a last chance to ditch, call reinforcements or just being extra precautious, perhaps to a degree where adventure fails or only gets to be a very minor success.
[Wandering off topic to OOC Vampires adventure thread but it is related since LPA as a result of that adventure will very soon discover how the heir stuff work out]
It was really nice to watch; DM and players alike I thank you for the entertainment.
Gray you have my sympathy - I feel sorry for you loosing your regent even if he was not perhaps the best of friends with my regent; Even though this is OOC Wallac will too be rather unhappy for the leader of LPA to have died. If you guys give an opportunity for IC reactions it would be great.
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Getting accepted has to happen before the "coronation" - If not taken care of, the mechanic of ROE is dropping Prosperity, Stability and/or Regency.
Lets not make up more actions... :)
I was casual in the term, sorry. Basically I agree with the diplomacy point, I see it as:
Stage 1. Get the person noticed by the wider domain - some act of heroism, etc.
Stage 2. Show off their strength, piety, etc to cement their reputation in the domain.
Stage 3. Show off their leadership skills to get the wider domain seeing them as a potential leader - this probably involves giving them some sort of senior rank (master of the 7th spell, general, head of the inquisition, etc).
Stage 4. Make a major effort to get them recognised as heir.
Stage 5. They then have to actually take over...
But on a wider point on hiring, the 'click, I have a tank' approach is unhelpful, I'd rather have 3 or 4 actions with moderate DC than one with an insanely high DC, this would a) allow the cost to be 'touchable' and b) infer that the NPC is slowly being courted / introduced to the realm and so slowly winning over doubters in the domain.
The latter method might take a year or so (depending on how many similar court actions a season you can take) and would need you to track the actions (Fred the Just, promoted hireling - ally - henchman - lieutenant - heir?) but shouldn't be a problem to deal with.
Of course, you wind up with different classes of 'employee' under this method:
Hireling: Casual employee from time to time, has their own projects, may also work for other domains. Can aid actions, but is not fully accepted/trusted so does so at a penalty.
Ally: Firmly allied to domain, may have some of their own projects, but seen as one of the domain. Often called on to aid in domain actions.
Henchman: Well known in the domain as linked to the regent, some minor personal authority.
Lieutenant: Senor member of the domain in their own right. May carry out domain actions in their own right.
Heir: Seen as the heir / one of the potential heirs if the regent dies.
There have been numerous examples where you don't have a crazy DC for the hire action, because other steps have been taken to reduce the difficulty of the action.
There is no hard-n-fast rule, instead I suggest you think on what actions you can use to get your 'ideal' AA.
Able Assistance is like the MOST UNIMPORTANT thing about a domain. It really doesn't warrant all this attention, I think.
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Amen to Gray's last comment; the AA section is as detailed as it is because the rules are also intended to be used with a tabletop game...but as always players find it so much easier to relate to characters than an abstract domain concept. And they have way too high expectations of what their characters can do.
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Able Assistance is like the MOST UNIMPORTANT thing about a domain. It really doesn't warrant all this attention, I think.
I'd actually get rid of able assistance and simulate the court's help in other ways, it's overly complicated in my view.
But 'adventure' and 'domain' PCs and potential heirs currently are either 'in' or 'out' - the jump is too big, there are comments about using other actions to bring them in, but nothing definitive making it impossible to plan an action sequence to get them. So I could potentially spend a few diplomacy actions, and if that got me +10 or so to the eventual hire action that might be worth it, but if they only add +5 then probably not...
If you have different grades of such people, showing how integrated they are, then each step is smaller, and can be built into a plan - tag them as a hireling this turn, make an adviser of them the next, etc. You might spend a year game time bringing them in, but you can always see the path as it were - and no particular step in the progression costs the earth.
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Amen to Gray's last comment; the AA section is as detailed as it is because the rules are also intended to be used with a tabletop game...but as always players find it so much easier to relate to characters than an abstract domain concept. And they have way too high expectations of what their characters can do.
Thats true, but its also very hard to figure out what the ECL of an adventure is. In short, all we get to know is that something is stinking up our realm, and that, if unstopped, we will all fail, die horribly or lose stability.
In that situation, you round up the gang and get cracking. If the gang you have available is not enough, well, there is no way to know before you are well into the thick of it.
I dunno what the fix for this should be though, unless you as DM scale the adventures to the participants... Which would mean much less danger. - OR make really big signs, like the Manethander thing, that you probably can't do this.
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Able Assistance is like the MOST UNIMPORTANT thing about a domain. It really doesn't warrant all this attention, I think.
I'd actually get rid of able assistance and simulate the court's help in other ways, it's overly complicated in my view.
But 'adventure' and 'domain' PCs and potential heirs currently are either 'in' or 'out' - the jump is too big, there are comments about using other actions to bring them in, but nothing definitive making it impossible to plan an action sequence to get them. So I could potentially spend a few diplomacy actions, and if that got me +10 or so to the eventual hire action that might be worth it, but if they only add +5 then probably not...
If you have different grades of such people, showing how integrated they are, then each step is smaller, and can be built into a plan - tag them as a hireling this turn, make an adviser of them the next, etc. You might spend a year game time bringing them in, but you can always see the path as it were - and no particular step in the progression costs the earth.
I agree that they complicate things, but in a good way. I like the personal feel the characters of a realm give me. Something I will not be able to get from a Court stat or something simplified.
In RoE I, a stability drop in my domain was personalized through the actions of the high inquisitor, it made the problem come alive in ways a mere number could not have.
So I'm all for the complications of having "living" able assistants, without them RoE would take one step too close to Europa Universalis and become more of a tabletop online game, than an actual strategic roleplaying game.
That said, I believe aa's shouldn't be treated as the centrepiece of the game. If you need them, then hire them and promote them as you go along. Maybe you meet some of them along the way and decide to hire them. But apart from that they're just another interesting aspect of your domain. In a very real sense they're the rules aspect that's able to save you money, increase your chances of succes and keep your regent alive.
AA's are great! No matter what level, class or bloodline they have. It's all about WHO they are.
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Amen to Gray's last comment; the AA section is as detailed as it is because the rules are also intended to be used with a tabletop game...but as always players find it so much easier to relate to characters than an abstract domain concept. And they have way too high expectations of what their characters can do.
Thats true, but its also very hard to figure out what the ECL of an adventure is. In short, all we get to know is that something is stinking up our realm, and that, if unstopped, we will all fail, die horribly or lose stability.
In that situation, you round up the gang and get cracking. If the gang you have available is not enough, well, there is no way to know before you are well into the thick of it.
I dunno what the fix for this should be though, unless you as DM scale the adventures to the participants... Which would mean much less danger. - OR make really big signs, like the Manethander thing, that you probably can't do this.
Maybe players should consider doing more supportive actions? Like more espionage, more advisor, more research first? If you don't know what you're up against, you're walking blind. Take a turn or two for preparations next.
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Personally, I like the characters and the AA. Yes, this is a domain game and more often than not you are incapable of asserting your absolutist desires on a "suspecting" populace that isn't all that peachy about what you think it best.
However, you are not the domain, you are the guy/gal sitting on a throne (or wherever) trying to steer your domain and exactly because you're no omniscient skynet, you have to rely on your AA. If there's a dispute between loggers and miners in a remote town, or a small band of goblins is troubling a village or the flood has ruined the food stores of a minor community, you have to send someone to deal with it, and it can't always be you because you have to deal with bigger issues.
Sure, a hero king will personally charge the big monster (its good for PR) but if that hero king has to lead the army to support his liege lord or ally, he has to send someone else. And that someone else also has to manage the domain while the hero is away.
AA represent those characters the regent most often interacts with. A foreign dignitary arrives, I'll ask my lt. (who is a diplomat) for advice or even send her to deal with it. Smaller brigandage/monster event, I've a general who can take care of the problem, someone stealing my money, I've a spymaster and so on. And each of them has a group or more of their own AAs or employees that they in turn consult or delegate tasks to.
However, since we play this specific regent, having his "circle" of confidants is what makes the game more believable.
I'm reading an excellent book about the Fall of the Roman Empire now (by Peter Heather) and there's an event described that takes place in 372AD (or somewhere around that time) in which the citizens of Leptis Magna complained to the emperor about a certain general. The emperor's seat at the time was in Tries (Germany), over 2000km away. When both parties sent their representatives to Trier, the emperor had no choice but to send one of his AA to Leptis Magna to investigate and report back to him. His priority was the Rhine and the hordes of barbarians on the other side and he could not spare half a year it would have taken him to get there in person, and he was a "hero king" of sorts as he came from the army. It so happened that this AA embezzled some money, made a deal with the general and blamed it all on the innocent people of Leptis Magna, but that's outside of the scope of this topic. The point is that Emperor Valentinian trusted this man and used him for important tasks. As Heather states "Valentinian effectively ruled over Trier and its surroundings. The rest of his vast empire was under his control for as much as he could be informed about what was happening and properly react via his confident agents."
i.e. AAs :)
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Amen to Gray's last comment; the AA section is as detailed as it is because the rules are also intended to be used with a tabletop game...but as always players find it so much easier to relate to characters than an abstract domain concept. And they have way too high expectations of what their characters can do.
Thats true, but its also very hard to figure out what the ECL of an adventure is. In short, all we get to know is that something is stinking up our realm, and that, if unstopped, we will all fail, die horribly or lose stability.
In that situation, you round up the gang and get cracking. If the gang you have available is not enough, well, there is no way to know before you are well into the thick of it.
I dunno what the fix for this should be though, unless you as DM scale the adventures to the participants... Which would mean much less danger. - OR make really big signs, like the Manethander thing, that you probably can't do this.
Maybe players should consider doing more supportive actions? Like more espionage, more advisor, more research first? If you don't know what you're up against, you're walking blind. Take a turn or two for preparations next.
Exactly.
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There have been numerous examples where you don't have a crazy DC for the hire action, because other steps have been taken to reduce the difficulty of the action.
There is no hard-n-fast rule, instead I suggest you think on what actions you can use to get your 'ideal' AA.
Able Assistance is like the MOST UNIMPORTANT thing about a domain. It really doesn't warrant all this attention, I think.
That sounds good to hear. I was actually thinking of the possbility of using spells (realm scrying, royal facade) combined with advisor actions and possible espionage to lower DC for hire help.
Are any other wizard spells exept for Find the Divine Blood any good for locating possible AA?
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AA's are great! No matter what level, class or bloodline they have. It's all about WHO they are.
That's my thought actually. Each court level gives you a named AA in some position - the exact details frankly don't matter. You then get 1 action per AA (i.e. your court actions), or an AA can add 2 to any other action (max half your court helping on any one action) instead of taking their own action. The +2 reduces action cost which has an equivalent effect to reducing domain costs if the bonus is set correctly.
No need to hire, consider their class, etc - just a personality in a role. If you want something special they might be good at one type of action or suchlike (high inquisitor, can add +2 to DDC of anyone contesting your holding instead of taking an action), these could be standard for a given position, or a matter of bribing Bjorn.
That way the hire action is restricted to people with a class-impact on your realm, the 'court' as such is always a background thing mechanically.
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AA's are great! No matter what level, class or bloodline they have. It's all about WHO they are.
That's my thought actually. Each court level gives you a named AA in some position - the exact details frankly don't matter. You then get 1 action per AA (i.e. your court actions), or an AA can add 2 to any other action (max half your court helping on any one action) instead of taking their own action. The +2 reduces action cost which has an equivalent effect to reducing domain costs if the bonus is set correctly.
No need to hire, consider their class, etc - just a personality in a role. If you want something special they might be good at one type of action or suchlike (high inquisitor, can add +2 to DDC of anyone contesting your holding instead of taking an action), these could be standard for a given position, or a matter of bribing Bjorn.
That way the hire action is restricted to people with a class-impact on your realm, the 'court' as such is always a background thing mechanically.
Thats a pretty good idea. Me like.
(By the way, you can only have 1 +2 competence bonus pr. action, so no stacking advisor bonuses.)
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Your interesting suggestion has the one problem that it removes the adventure part of RoE, which we will not be without. You'll still need adventurers to have classes, levels and a possible bloodline score to emulate this. Or change the game itself substantially.
But it could be interesting to separate the two. Remove the admin aa's, expand on the court rules as you suggest and have aa's be solely concentrated on high fantasy matters, like adventuring with the regent, becoming lieutenants, leading armies, jockeying for position within the domain and becoming the new regent.
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This thread has generated a LOT of interest, so I'd say that is another indication that AAs (perhaps unfortunately) will continue to garner more attention then they really deserve.
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But it could be interesting to separate the two. Remove the admin aa's, expand on the court rules as you suggest and have aa's be solely concentrated on high fantasy matters, like adventuring with the regent, becoming lieutenants, leading armies, jockeying for position within the domain and becoming the new regent.
That's my thought, you still have named aa's for the intrigue, but mostly they are just furniture. The only people you actually then track are the high fantasy tyes.
(By the way, you can only have 1 +2 competence bonus pr. action, so no stacking advisor bonuses.)
I was thinking of changing the method totally - so you don't get court actions and +2 on any action from aa, just a choice of whether they carry out a court action (probably at a minus to reflect the fact that they aren't the regent) and then stackable bonus's if they don't do their own action. Whether making the bonus's stackable would work is something Im not sure of - it would greatly expand take 10 opportunities for example, so at +2 it wouldn't just be 4 RP saved, but possibly 14.
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This thread has generated a LOT of interest, so I'd say that is another indication that AAs (perhaps unfortunately) will continue to garner more attention then they really deserve.
I would much rather call this a qualified attempt at changing the rule on aa's into something more manageable.
Ruleswise the aa's are currently able to boost your actions for nothing, reduce your costs, supply you with information and help you on adventures. Just looking at the rules they are thé single most flexible entity in all of the game. Now add to it the possibility of personification, which you can't do with a court number, and yeah, I understand the attention.
But let's change the direction of this, what we're discussing is a possible change to the rules:
Split aa's between courtiersand heroes.
Let the courtiers have skills useful for admin and advice, while the heroes have levels, bloodlines etc. and are useful for adventure, boosting your actions, being commanders & commodores, becoming lieutenants and being the pool where you could draw your heir from.
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Courtiers:
Your court expense defines the max number of courtiers (so a 5GB court could have 5 courtiers, enough to cover most admin posts). You use hire help to acquire them and grant actions to give them titles.
They are either master within one field, expert within two or skilled within three. Each admin is it's own field, each area of knowledge is it's own field. They can learn new fields or increase an existing one through the use of training actions (with increasing DDC's as the levels go higher).
Suggested:
Master = +15
Expert = +10
Skilled = +5
Courtiers may die: If stability drops below zero, due to random events, old age or the effects of war.
Heroes
Uses current character rules.
Heroes are divided between hirelings and henchmen.
The domain expense defines how many hirelings you can have.
Henchmen are limited by the regent's leadership score.
Sometimes heroes serve a domain, not a regent directly and will stay in the service of the domain as long as the domain's alignment doesn't change. They are special cases and do not count against anything.
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That could work Jon. I like the part about Courtiers, and it also curbs the urge to have your Master administrator cover 2-3 bases.
Dunno if the DDC modifiers have to be so high though, if their useability has been limited to just 1 area from birth, then their value is much less too.
And for Sages many areas of knowledge are less valuable than Administration.
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I think keep the current hire help rules for heroes, but make it fairly easy to hire courtiers. There should after all be enough of them to go around.
I also think the training action should make it possible to "upgrade" your courtiers. Scholars learn more fields, admins become more competent at what they do. Etc.
It could even be a simple +1 pt. per training action...
What I do not believe in is making it easier for people to hire heavy duty hitters, because RoE is not about things getting done in a jiffy, but about slow meticulous progress and swift setbacks. You want a real hero, you hire him young and train the brains out of him.
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No you hire a dozen and hope at least one of them will survive the extensive training program needed to gain those levels ;D