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RoE Development => Regent Guide => : X-Points East July 20, 2013, 07:31:19 PM

: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: X-Points East July 20, 2013, 07:31:19 PM

OoC:

Should a regent generally receive a salary from the domain, which he rules, thereby potentially bringing personal treasuries and the finances (convert wealth) action more into play?

: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Ruideside/OM (RP) July 20, 2013, 09:04:40 PM
That would depend on the form the regent's rule takes. In the case of most nobles no, but in those cases where the regent could be construed as the employee (i.e. is an office holder) then possibly so.
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: HBoT/JA (Viktor) July 20, 2013, 10:30:34 PM
For a noble, one could argue that the land and holdings belong to him, therefore the domain's treasury is his own.

For a temple/ guild domain it could be seen as corruption if a regent starts funneling the domain's revenue to his pocket and may cause uproar/ stability/ bloodline loss etc depending on the domain's alignment. 

In regards to the salary idea, we need to keep an equilibrium otherwise we would be generating money from nothing. I.e. if a domain degrees that the regent will have a salary of X GBs per turn, then that should be an additional cost for the domain over and above any existing maintenance cost.

I personally have found very limited use for the convert wealth action. It could be potentially useful if a noble is deposed (he can keep his money to fight back)
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde) July 21, 2013, 12:46:59 AM

OoC:

Should a regent generally receive a salary from the domain, which he rules, thereby potentially bringing personal treasuries and the finances (convert wealth) action more into play?


I would say no.

Think of it this way: Your domain is your birthright! Why should you remove resources from your birthright to pay yourself if you already get all of your expenses paid?

A corrupt regent who fear his rule is in danger might use convert wealth to steal from the domain.

Or a regent who wishes to grant a personalized gift, might convert a GB or fraction thereof to personal wealth in the form of some artwork he can gift instead of the GB.

The recipient of said presents may then use finances to add the GB value of the gift to their domains treasury.

GM's could give you a unique treasure from adventure actions as personal wealth rather than an amount of GB ready to add to your realms treasury.

I think there are plenty of opportunity to use finances(convert wealth) as it is.
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Dhoesone/FD_(Marco) July 31, 2013, 08:37:33 AM
In medieval and ancient ages differences between royal and ruler treasury were very few or even nonexistent...

It would be normal IMHO that a ruler could hide some riches of the domain for himself and his family, to use them in case of need (i.e. he must flee the domain for a revolt...).

But since in RoE we play a domain more than a regent I think to store away GBs in many cases would be useless.
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Yggdrasil (DM Andy) July 31, 2013, 10:12:54 PM
A certain amount of private expenditure from the "domain purse" is not merely possible but expected, it's when the regent overdoes it that you get issue (each domain drawing the line of acceptability in a different place).

One of the things I always find amusing in PBeMs is that nobody "wastes money", where is the construction of the massive townhouse, the great statues and art, the opulent tombs?  A lot of people earned money in the medieval world to spend it, not to invest it ;-)

I note that it isn't just rulers who occasionally have to flee either; some guild hostile takeovers can get nasty, and the in-fighting in some organisations could be brutal.  In BR of course most "GB" aren't portable, but even so a "secret stash" could exist in any domain in my view - it's a pity that the Conclave's 100 GB stash and its history was missed by most of you - it was beautiful.  ;D
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde) July 31, 2013, 10:46:20 PM
A certain amount of private expenditure from the "domain purse" is not merely possible but expected, it's when the regent overdoes it that you get issue (each domain drawing the line of acceptability in a different place).

One of the things I always find amusing in PBeMs is that nobody "wastes money", where is the construction of the massive townhouse, the great statues and art, the opulent tombs?  A lot of people earned money in the medieval world to spend it, not to invest it ;-)

I note that it isn't just rulers who occasionally have to flee either; some guild hostile takeovers can get nasty, and the in-fighting in some organisations could be brutal.  In BR of course most "GB" aren't portable, but even so a "secret stash" could exist in any domain in my view - it's a pity that the Conclave's 100 GB stash and its history was missed by most of you - it was beautiful.  ;D

The great statues, the art, the opulent tombs, the massive townhouse is IMO all found in the context of other actions. Rule holding could have a description of the erection of great buildings with no effect on domain play.

Agitate actions, festival (grant) actions and so on could be used to describe great statues and art.

If I at some point use GB effort on an action where it might be appropriate I could describe in a building, statue or other piece of art.

As I see it there is plenty of room to give your regent what he want, within reason, without "wasting money". The other characters in your domain is paid by your domain upkeep, and as such must have a personal treasury they can use as they see fit.

Please tell me if I am way off base.
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Ruideside/OM (RP) July 31, 2013, 10:59:01 PM
I don't think you are off base at all.
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Yggdrasil (DM Andy) August 01, 2013, 10:30:24 PM
In general a regent is only "of base" in their spending when floating face-down in the river with a trio of knives in their back and a former lieutenant bewailing the fact that guilt over their corruption and theft didn't make them jump sooner.  ::)

Most personal stuff will be buried in court costs and actions - the fluff can cover all sorts.
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: X-Points East August 02, 2013, 08:51:36 AM


OoC:

Should a regent generally receive a salary from the domain, which he rules, thereby potentially bringing personal treasuries and the finances (convert wealth) action more into play?



OoC:

Or should a regent perhaps receive a salary from the domain, which he rules, when possessing qualities (such as mastery), for which an able assistant might demand additional payment?

: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde) August 02, 2013, 01:53:32 PM


OoC:

Should a regent generally receive a salary from the domain, which he rules, thereby potentially bringing personal treasuries and the finances (convert wealth) action more into play?



OoC:

Or should a regent perhaps receive a salary from the domain, which he rules, when possessing qualities (such as mastery), for which an able assistant might demand additional payment?



The story of why the eldest son did not take the throne:

The dying king:
"To my eldest son I leave the whole of the kingdom, may you watch over it and pass it strengthened to your son one day."

The eldest son:
"That's dandy dad. But since I am as great at playing the flute as I am, and ruling the kingdom will take up so much of my time, I will give myself 40.000gp each year to buy the stuff I could have bought with the profit from playing in the inns. You know I'm really really great at it so I think it will be fair."

The dying king:
"And to my youngest and only true son, I leave the whole of the kingdom! May he protect it from the influence of the stranger calling himself his brother"
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Yggdrasil (DM Andy) August 02, 2013, 08:52:09 PM
Or should a regent perhaps receive a salary from the domain, which he rules, when possessing qualities (such as mastery), for which an able assistant might demand additional payment?

With guilds you almost want to say "of course", but I suspect that the hereditary necessity of bloodlines means that most regents see the domains as "theirs" in a real sense - why pay yourself a salary?  In practice I suspect that it is best to leave the regent's personal wealth as subsumed in the domain and only fuss if there is an issue like a coup - in which case any legal status of the money is fairly irrelevant.
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: X-Points East November 22, 2013, 09:12:05 AM


OoC:

Should a regent generally receive a salary from the domain, which he rules, thereby potentially bringing personal treasuries and the finances (convert wealth) action more into play?



OoC:

Hypothetical Possibility:


Relevant Levels
Regent Salary
(per Season)
11+ Guild/Trade Levels
1 GB
11+ Law/Manor Levels
0.5 GB
11+ Temple Levels
0.25 GB

Note:  When two or three of the above (relevant-levels) conditions are met, the regent salary is the average of the two highest salaries, for which he is eligible.

: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Stjordvik Traders/SH (Tristan) November 22, 2013, 08:44:44 PM


OoC:

Should a regent generally receive a salary from the domain, which he rules, thereby potentially bringing personal treasuries and the finances (convert wealth) action more into play?



OoC:

Hypothetical Possibility:


Relevant Levels
Regent Salary
(per Season)
11+ Guild/Trade Levels
1 GB
11+ Law/Manor Levels
0.5 GB
11+ Temple Levels
0.25 GB

Note:  When two or three of the above (relevant-levels) conditions are met, the regent salary is the average of the two highest salaries, for which he is eligible.



I am assuming that the rationale is to add more value to the convert wealth action? If so rather than adding base incomes that mean players have the ability to convert personal wealth into GB and in agendas that have a corrupt and venal priest trying to siphon off money for his personal fortune, etc.
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Yggdrasil (DM Andy) November 22, 2013, 09:57:04 PM
To me, convert wealth was always aimed at the adventurer-regent, whether the play-prince who squandered the treasury on magic items and high-level hirelings to go and "play hero", or the Vos ruler of the impoverished tribe who hunted yeti's for pelts which they then traded for vital GB.

You could divide the domain income between the domain and the regent, either as noted or with the regent getting a share of the domain maintenance, but I'm not sure that I see the point - effectively you are either robbing Peter to pay Paul, or increasing domain income by making it an add-on.

With adventures generally taking a back-seat in ROE the action gets less use, one of the many things I need to discuss with Matt.
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde) November 23, 2013, 01:28:26 AM
I really don't see the point of giving rulers any salary. Everything in the domain is the rulers. To pay him a salary is to reduce him to a hired person and imply that he doesn't have control of his own treasury.
If your regent hungers for personal wealth, then let him use finances to convert some of HIS treasury into personal wealth.

Convert wealth is used to gain specific items from your GB, not coins you can use at a later date.

You are paying your hirelings and all your other expences in GB, not GB worth of personal wealth, so any salary you gain would still have to be converted with a finance action to become personal wealth.
If not, then the action becomes moot as GB gets automatically exchanged into personal wealth when distributed, but are GB when collected from holdings. And why have an action to take care of something that happens automatically?

Finances is an action with advantage(guild), so yet again I feel you are trying to give guild domains a bonus, as they will have the least problems converting GB back and forth.

Players have enough reason to use the Finance action as is... Hardly a turn went by in RoEII without me using, or contemplating using it if I had enough actions.

But if we really want to look at making Finance(convert wealth) more used, then this is what I propose:
Let salary paid in GB's worth of personal wealth to hirelings count double than what salary paid in pure GB does. And remove advantage guild from the convert wealth part of the Finance action.
That way rulers would want to run the action without being reduced to hirelings, and we don't strengthen the guilds more than other domains.


If we are looking to make some of the least used actions appear more in submitted turns, then why not look at Disband(holding) or Relocate?

I don't know how we could force/sweeten Disband(holding) to be used more, but Relocate has the following flavor text: "Nomadic Rjurik clans move their courts in accordance with the seasons for example – if they do not they will suffer penalties to variable income rolls."

Perhaps looking into that flavor text is more relevant for a Rjurik campaign, than looking into an action used way more than Relocate.


[Following is added in the edit]
I know that there can be roleplay reasons why you would want to convert wealth. That is why I view this action as a tool for players to roleplay their regents, and I like that.

The suggested change to Finance I wrote should be viewed as an acceptable compromise, and not as a desire to change the current rules.
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: X-Points East August 30, 2014, 07:45:41 AM



OoC:

Should a regent generally receive a salary from the domain, which he rules, thereby potentially bringing personal treasuries and the finances (convert wealth) action more into play?



OoC:

Or should a regent perhaps receive a salary from the domain, which he rules, when possessing qualities (such as mastery), for which an able assistant might demand additional payment?



OoC:

Suggestion:

The convert wealth section of the finances action and any precise tracking of the personal treasuries of regents could simply be eliminated from the rules/game.

: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde) August 30, 2014, 09:59:59 AM



OoC:

Should a regent generally receive a salary from the domain, which he rules, thereby potentially bringing personal treasuries and the finances (convert wealth) action more into play?



OoC:

Or should a regent perhaps receive a salary from the domain, which he rules, when possessing qualities (such as mastery), for which an able assistant might demand additional payment?



OoC:

Suggestion:

The convert wealth section of the finances action and any precise tracking of the personal treasuries of regents could simply be eliminated from the rules/game.



I think the action is nice for converting gb into personal wealth when giving a wedding gift or something like that to another regent.  The action give the players a tool to acquire such gifts or convert them back to gb with a minimum of fuss.
I see no need to remove the action completely, I just don't see the need to add an extra layer of bookkeeping to the system in order to force the action to be used more.
: Re: Personal Treasury of a Regent
: Wanderer (Garth) August 30, 2014, 11:59:59 PM
Maybe actions and bookkeeping shouldn't matter when giving a gift.

Isn't it the thought that counts?