Re: Conclave special session during S&C

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

I quite understand your point, however it is as it must be. Your personal feelings are your own and I would dear wish you kept them there, because you're mixing them into IC matters. Which means you're mixing business and pleasure.

Here's what I see the problem as:
 Since you tried to strongarm the Conclave; declaration of war against temples not paying their tithe and such, you ran smack into a load of trouble. They tried to strongarm you back into what they thought was the Pontiff's place - a primus inter pares, first amongst equals. The HA supported you in your assumptions, restarted the fight and walked right into the crossfire.

 The latest was your attempt at forcing the war tithe, stating that the temples appearing at the Conclave were to run any agendas by you before you would allow it and forging the KoH into a central Conclave army led by the Pontiff.
 That was the reason why several temples, led by the WIT, decided to force the issue and attempt to get rid of you. Because they do not want that kind of Conclave.

 It has always been a political matter, riddled with assumptions, fears and so on. I urge you all to read the history of the Catholic Pontifficate, if you want to see just how bad things can get. Indeed the current Popes are perhaps the most stable in several centuries, go back four links or so and you have the last assassinated Pope.
 These matters are not fun and games, but deadly serious high politics.

 Force against force in a continuous dance.

Having reread the post I ask to be considered for the next landed domain getting availeble. In the mean time I shall strive to keep IHH in shape

[X-DM Jon]

 You cannot cross the line with me, so don't worry about it. You can cross the line with the NPC's I play, as you have seen. Now your problem is you have no or very little distance between yourself and player character, so you try to figure out both me and NPC at the same time. Instead of separating the two.

 And now you're stepping aside, worrying that you will cross the line? How can you cross the line more than likening me to a psychotic mugger? You're constantly "crossing the line" my good man, that's what makes you such a fabulous character. And I wouldn't change that if I could, but I, as the DM, would love to make life a lot easier for you. So I try to tell you how not to provoke the most powerful of the NPC temples. Indeed the most powerful temple in all of Anuire.

 I have tried to get you to look at what the NPC's are actually saying behind all the bluff and bravado. Tried to get you to hear what they are hearing you say. And I will continue to try.

And maybe the WIT could have been less of a dick at the start, I admit. What's done is done.
However it wasn't completely unintentional. The temples had to be shown as what they are, deeply affected by 500 years or more of separation and conflict. And you as players had no way of knowing that - or indeed showing that - without getting as hard as possible an entry into the Conclave - IF you put a foot wrong. Like threatening war against the temples - no matter the context.

 Now all the other stuff aside ain't as important compared to this: The CoT isn't supposed to survive on it's own. It was never in the cards that it would. Actually it was very dependent on the character of the Pontiff. Could he keep it together? Contrary to what you might think, Isilviere actually has been able to keep it together. Because the temples don't mind a strong leader, they just don't want a TOO strong leader.

 Now I suggest you remember that it's your own responsibility to make things fun, even when it seems like it's not. So don't take this or anything personal, take it as a huge challenge that is stacked against you.
 RoE isn't for the faint of heart, RoE I saw players leaving left right and centre because they got outcompeted by others or the game turned against them.
 Those who garnered the greatest respect were those who fought to the last - even after loosing. Some of them even won.

[X-DM Jon]

Having reread the post I ask to be considered for the next landed domain getting availeble. In the mean time I shall strive to keep IHH in shape

 It shall be done as you wish.

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

You cannot cross the line with me, so don't worry about it. You can cross the line with the NPC's I play, as you have seen. Now your problem is you have no or very little distance between yourself and player character, so you try to figure out both me and NPC at the same time. Instead of separating the two.

 And now you're stepping aside, worrying that you will cross the line? How can you cross the line more than likening me to a psychotic mugger? You're constantly "crossing the line" my good man, that's what makes you such a fabulous character. And I wouldn't change that if I could, but I, as the DM, would love to make life a lot easier for you. So I try to tell you how not to provoke the most powerful of the NPC temples. Indeed the most powerful temple in all of Anuire.

 I have tried to get you to look at what the NPC's are actually saying behind all the bluff and bravado. Tried to get you to hear what they are hearing you say. And I will continue to try.

And maybe the WIT could have been less of a dick at the start, I admit. What's done is done.
However it wasn't completely unintentional. The temples had to be shown as what they are, deeply affected by 500 years or more of separation and conflict. And you as players had no way of knowing that - or indeed showing that - without getting as hard as possible an entry into the Conclave - IF you put a foot wrong. Like threatening war against the temples - no matter the context.

 Now all the other stuff aside ain't as important compared to this: The CoT isn't supposed to survive on it's own. It was never in the cards that it would. Actually it was very dependent on the character of the Pontiff. Could he keep it together? Contrary to what you might think, Isilviere actually has been able to keep it together. Because the temples don't mind a strong leader, they just don't want a TOO strong leader.

 Now I suggest you remember that it's your own responsibility to make things fun, even when it seems like it's not. So don't take this or anything personal, take it as a huge challenge that is stacked against you.
 RoE isn't for the faint of heart, RoE I saw players leaving left right and centre because they got outcompeted by others or the game turned against them.
 Those who garnered the greatest respect were those who fought to the last - even after loosing. Some of them even won.

I wish I had read that post before making my first post as Pontiff

[X-DM Jon]

Yeah, but I didn't know this back then either 

 Just take it from here, and if a noble realm opens up - which I might add it doesn't look like will happen anytime soon - you get first pick. You can make that decision when you need to cross that river.

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Yes I dont expect it to happen anytime soon. Long term I think I would have more fun but untill then I will roam Anuire as Wallac Isilviere

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

Let me quote you the exact reason why you are wrong, they have not told the Pontiff where to "stick it":

Dispatch to all temples of the Conclave.

The WIT ask that the Pontiff allow the tithe of the WIT and the CJS, + all vassals of the WIT (OoC: hereafter named, we'll be certain to inform you if there are ordinary temples who are not within the WIT sphere) that our tithe be used towards the army keeping guard on the Alamien and Tuornen border to the Five Peaks, from whence the undead still strike all Anuire.
 (OoC: This obviously includes a detailed rundown of the WIT forces in question, I'll send you a detailed list asap)

 The WIT will pay any and all tithe that the Pontiff righteously demands, only we ask this excemption with honour and with a strong sense of the duty that our constant vigilance demands.

 Prelate Kharnmoien of the WIT

 Obviously this statement completely drowned in a drawn out argument over the Pontiff's threat of war against any temple that would not pay it's tithe.

 I say again; your assumptions are what will draw out this conflict.

That particular quote was not drowned out - it was exactly the one which told the Pontiff where to stick it in Robbie view .

Let me translate as Robbie heard.

We are all for paying the tithe - we signed the charter so we have to.

But we aren't going to.  We are going to pay for the troops we would support anyway, place them where we want them to defend our interests and ours alone, and we aren't going to pay a penny to the Conclave.

So Robbie sees it as:   The WIT tried to strongarm the Pontiff into waiving the tithe for the WIT and every single temple under it - He said no.

They refused to negotiate a settlement of half, quarter, whatever - they refused to pay a penny.  Thus the constant arguments and pain.

If they'd negotiated, explained their need, the benefits to other people, and he'd been obdurate, then the WIT might have got robbie's sympathy, but they didn't.  They just demanded...


Now certainly Wallac trying to push for the war tithe in that atmosphere was going to be tough, and I expected the WIT to throw a strop, but given the long time lag between mustering and training it wasn't unsurprising - I saw it as a stalking horse motion - expected to fail but raised so that in a few seasons he could say 'see where we are, we must act this time...'


I see the real issue between WIT and IHH (and HA) as totally opposing views of what the Conclave is for.

HA saw the Knights as core to the Conclave, a single unifed force unaligned with any particular temple who could thus act with relative impunity.  As such paying the tithe was absolutely necessary, simply paying for your own troops, particular in WITs manner where they were not even nominally placed at the disposal of the Conclave, was a direct attack on the entire point of the Conclave.  Frankly a simple discussion group is of no interest to the Aegis and the glory of being Pontiff at best a distraction from their purpose so neither is given any importance, which pretty much leaves the knights, and maybe the ability to provide a united front to the nobility.


The WIT, I think, see the knights as at best a distraction, they are big, they are rich, they have their own large powerful army - and the knights are at best a rival - worse the knights are right next door.  So they want to avoid paying the tithe at all costs as it supports the knights (bad as a nearby rival is made stronger) and reduces their own forces (also bad as they lose influence locally).  To them the main point of the Conclave was presumably the discussion group - so that they could influence through diplomacy all temples across Anuire, make best use of the Pontiff role (smaller temples are less able to capitalise on advantage, with their vassals they would sweep up each time it came around to them) and so on.

Now if the Conclave had voted to change the tithe rules, agreed to maintain only a small force of KoH, etc, HA would have been fully in support of the WIT's position - but coming from the 'we have agreed to pay the tithe unless the Pontiff says otherwise' the WITs view was untenable to Robbie as it simply broke the treaty.


The interesting question is, can we agree on what the Conclave is for?  What the Knights are for?  Unless we can, then we can't agree the size of the tithe, or the conditions of payment...

[X-OIT/Narvelon Diem-Avan]

The OIT's view was quite similar to the IHH's in what the Conclave should be for and how central the KoH should be to all conclave military matters, but it all went went south with the Pontiffs took a bullying approach with the OIT which only wanted to know what was going on and was effectively told to mind its business and agree to what the boss said.  Until then many thinngs seemed to be agreed.  I'm not saying there was anything wrong with the approach, how the Pontiff approached it actually made it quite an interesting challenge.  But looking back the eventual outcome seems less of a surprise.  However I have a great deal of sympathy with anyone taking on this position before a turn may come my way, I dread to think what a hash I may have made of it!

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

For what it is worth I intended not to bully OIT; rl time constrains combined with stress of the sheer overwhelming numbers of issues/negotiaons as Pontiff may have made me far more blunt than called for.

I shared the vision for purpose of CoT with HA btw

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

Yeah, rl 'I need to finish this post in 2 minutes' and 'crap, I'll have to look at that at the weekend' can cause conflict - you don't get the time to soften the words, respond at the wrong time, etc.

But then, our PCs are likely busy people too, so sometimes that may be a very accurate way of representing them 

Anyway, I usually try and figure out what people mean, and pay attention to how they have said it - unless of course I want to 'be provoked' into a fight...

[X-OIT/Narvelon Diem-Avan]

Seems like an opportunity for a fresh start all round - if we want to take it!

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

I figure that a big conclave in a few seasons would be ideal - see if we have compatible ideas of the Conclave, or whether we need two - one for the WIT and other introvert domain, then a 'coalition of the willing' Conclave for temples that want to help all of Anuire.  Hmm, I bet they WIT'd love that - but who would be in which I wonder...  Somehow I doubt we wil have the luxury of time though!

Sigh, I'd hoped that the WIT was hitting major internal shit from ignoring the Conclave treaty requirements and generally bullying and picking fights trashing their reputation, but if the domain sees the Conclave as a problem as Jon indicates then they have no internal constraints and can just keep on hitting the Conclave until it breaks down into the one they want.

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

I will be interested in a CoT of the willing. Ofcause working closely with the rest of CoT but unhindred by those that prefer CoT to be a discusion forum only.

Perhaps that is the way to go.

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

You could go for 'inner' and 'outer' tiers - trouble is that in any such matter, the WIT will demand a seat at the 'top table' - and still refuse to pay for it.  Plus you then get a free-rider problem.

Jon's pointed out that without the WIT and vassals the Conclave loses much of its kudos, which is certainly true to a point - but a paralysed Conclave is little better - and a Conclave covered 'everywhere else' is something that the WIT should actually very much want to join - what would it say of them that they refuse to take part?

I may try floating some motions to get some agreement - say agreeing the scope and role of the knights so that we all agree the total tithe required, and can then agree a tithe that everyone pays.  Trouble is I'm not sure that we can get agreement on it given the vehemence - the WIT isn't the only church that wants the Knights disbanded / reduced substantially...

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Then simply make a invitation only CoT of the willing. Goes without saying that you simply dont invite WIT. Regular CoT can then work as it does now dominated by WIT and doing good work within that framework.

Then those that want CoT to work actively and not just as a forum can try to change the Charter of CoT from within stopping the holes in the charter and trying to make for better defininations of the decision making process, Speaker role (Pontiff should be Speaker as I see it) etc.