Twilightpeaks.net
RoE Development => Regent Guide => : X-MOC/Leman States (Even) December 14, 2008, 03:51:09 PM
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Is it possibly to increase the speed of the Construction action? Similar to the Fortify action?
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Yes. Using the same guidelines as for Fortify.
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Under construction there is a list of "wondrous structures" one can build. I'm interested specifically in the "Halls of learning" i.e. is that a classic university or can it be further specialized like "college of war" or a "fine arts academy" or even a "classic university + specialty" etc.
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Its a classic university (look at the effects), but I'm sure it could be used as a basis for other similar structures. The list is by no means exhaustive.
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A number of structures, have very high costs when compared to other structures which have similar bonuses.
Great Cathedral vs. Hall of Justice for instance.
Is this on purpose?
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Could you expend multiple court actions on the same construction project? (it doesn't seem to be the case, but I wanted to clarify).
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Could you expend multiple court actions on the same construction project? (it doesn't seem to be the case, but I wanted to clarify).
No, you only spend one Court action to start a construction project, then a free action each turn to progress it. If you want to speed up the construction you can double the amount spent each turn, but total cost of project increases by 20%. Same rules as for fortifications as referred to by Bjørn.
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A number of structures, have very high costs when compared to other structures which have similar bonuses.
Great Cathedral vs. Hall of Justice for instance.
Is this on purpose?
They are not similar - a Cathedral's effect extends into any province in which you have a holding. Hall of Justice only works for your own realm.
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A number of structures, have very high costs when compared to other structures which have similar bonuses.
Great Cathedral vs. Hall of Justice for instance.
Is this on purpose?
They are not similar - a Cathedral's effect extends into any province in which you have a holding. Hall of Justice only works for your own realm.
Text in rules for Grand Cathedral says: "You get a +2 asset bonus on all
Create holding (temple) and Rule holding (temple) actions."
But Bjørn imply a limit that its only where you allready have a holding - do I misunderstand rule text or Bjørn? Meaning will I only get the +2 for create a holding where I have holdings allready?
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They are not similar - a Cathedral's effect extends into any province in which you have a holding. Hall of Justice only works for your own realm.
The Hall of Justice still has a global effect: The DDC of any hostile regent trying to contest your law holdings (anywhere) is increased by 2.
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Grand Cathedral
cost 75 GB
DDC 20
Upkeep 1 GB/turn
+2 asset bonus on all Creat holding (temple)and Rule holding (temple)
Especially DDC 20 is VERY high. Like it takes not less than 25 turns assuming no failures.
Compare it to Hall of Justice
Cost 50 GB
DDC 18
Upkeep 0.5 GB
+2 asset bonus on all Creat holding (Law) and Rule holding (Law)
The DDC of ANY regent trying to contest your law holdings (anywhere) is increased with 2.
Additionally get +4 asset bonus an court actions dealing with matters of justice within you own domain
Which is best? Which is hardest to build and most expensive? Which have the highest upkeep? I find Grand Cathedral too expensive. I suggest either reduce price, DDC, upkeep or give it better advantages. Granded Grand Cathedral works in all world but still.. DDC 20? Its almost impossible to build without burning a lot of either GB or RP as influence.. Then if you miss one roll theres a -2 cummultative penalty for next build roll..
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Hmm, 75 GB cost, 1 GB maintenance. Assuming 3 rule/create actions a round, and you would otherwise pay 2 GB a pop to get the same bonus, the payoff is in 15 turns...
If you do one such action a season (say 1 realm spell, 1 create/rule, 1 diplomacy) then the payoff is a very long way off indeed.
But then there are court actions - which with the support of the local law holder could become very handy with a further +2. The temple domain with a cathederal then recovers from a contest war very quickly, even though it is reduced as easily, the cost and ease to rebuild is far lower.
Potential other benefits if it is considered over priced:
* social - big boasting point
* add a point or two to the regency generated by the church (not much use due to topping out, but meh)
* prevent the home-province holding going below 'x' unless the cathederal is seized
* holdings are treated as one level higher for realm spell purposes / caster is treated as 1 level higher.
I think though that the idea is that very few faiths should have them, thus the loong build time.
I'd prefer lower maintenance (the extra tithes and donations would one hopes even out - the nobles should pay more if in a fancy shop church) than lower initial cost to keep them rare - temple domains should take the long view and if you figure it will benefit you for decades then the long pay-off is still worthwhile.
I would suggest though, that if captured by a rival faith, that a fairly chunky conversion cost should be present - while losing it should be a major kick in the teeth prestige wise.
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Such grand structures require the utmost dedication of the regent to pursue over many years, as they should. If they were cheap and cheerful everyone would have one :) It may be that the GM's are open to suggestions of buildings that are not the ultimate structures in their class... are they?
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My real big concern is DDC 20 :o
That alone game mechanicwise makes it cheaper (except a very few unusual cases) to speed up building and add 20 percent to the build price - I do not think that was intended. So my really big concern is they are so damned difficult to build.
I say either lower DDC some or throw in an extra use. It could flavourwise be that the +2 bonus also applies defensively when someoneelse tries to take away your temple holdings. In reality flavourwise I also think that having THE Grand Cathedral should help your lawholdings but that would make them unbalanced as lawholdings are probably the best holdings in game and so would make too big an impact.
As Pontiff I Wallac Isilviere High Prefect of the IHH hereby decree that Grand Cathedrals additionally invoke a +2 defensive bonus when some wannabee charletan tries to contest your existing holdings ;D
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As i can see from the buildings there are not many that helps guilds that much, are we free to come up with some our self and ask if we can build them, or are they mainly for tempels or land regents?
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The buildings from the regent guide are just examples; other buildings are possible, even buildings that help guilds.
When building something major like a cathedral I would:
- have at least +1 stability
- build it in a province with at least +2 prosperity
- ensure I have guild advantage working for me
- have a good court, say 6GBs
That's 6 points right there
- I would also make a nice action description for when I start the cathedral, to make sure I get the +2 bonus (that would carry over to subsequent free actions - no need for a new description each turn)
- I'd also ask the DM to allow me to hire a high-level expert to act as my Architect; if the DM is nice he'll allow me to hire him as a hireling that can only contribute to the building of the cathedral; granting a +2 bonus or some such.
That's 10 points total, and I can start taking 10.
Perhaps a bit difficult, but possible. Still, the DDC should perhaps be reduced to only 18 or the effects of the cathedral improved somewhat. Just note that this is a GRAND cathedral - not just an ordinary one - not every temple has one.
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Besides reducing DDC to 18 I think doing as suggested by Andy "lower maintenance (the extra tithes and donations would one hopes even out - the nobles should pay more if in a fancy shop church) than lower initial cost to keep them rare"
DDC 18 & 0 upkeep
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0 Upkeep's unrealistic. Any grand structure is a major drain on finances unless you plan to let it crumble in on itself within a generation. Just look at Gaudi's Sagrada Familia in Barcelona. Construction was started in 1887 and its scheduled to be finished by 2026. When I was there the locals told me that they were spending more money on maintenance than on further construction. Each year another fresco or statue or a part of the facade had to be restored.
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Yea, the benefit of the cathedral comes from the extra bonuses it gives.
It can definately generate an "income" even while costing upkeep.
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1 GB is probably the base cost - any more and the effects would need to be very significant (not that I'm strapped or anything)
I'd note however that ideally you'd build the cathedral as a fort as well which would increase the maintenance cost sharply - like Durham where it was designed to protect the people against barbarians not just prove that the city was a glorious outpost of civilisation. Not sure what the rules are for a building which also acts as a fort / castle.
On the DDC - if the local law holder doesn't support you, don't build something that big in their land. With support the DDC should drop a little. Similarly throwing in a few RP to knock it down to a 'take 10' position doesn't sound unreasonable - unless you need to check every single action.
I'd rather the cathederal protected against contests, boosted local agitate actions, or provided a boost to the court itself (like a 2e palace) but otherwise the cost doesn't seem too out of whack - although it seems expensive compared to the halls of justice which protect more valuable law holdings.
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If holdings are fortified I think it includes grand structures as well as the generic law, temple etc holdings.
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Similarly throwing in a few RP to knock it down to a 'take 10' position doesn't sound unreasonable - unless you need to check every single action.
Take 10 only works if no influence is spent. The moment influence enters play, from you or someone opposing/supporting you, you have to roll the dice.
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Similarly throwing in a few RP to knock it down to a 'take 10' position doesn't sound unreasonable - unless you need to check every single action.
Take 10 only works if no influence is spent. The moment influence enters play, from you or someone opposing/supporting you, you have to roll the dice.
Quite true
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Besides reducing DDC to 18 I think doing as suggested by Andy "lower maintenance (the extra tithes and donations would one hopes even out - the nobles should pay more if in a fancy shop church) than lower initial cost to keep them rare"
DDC 18 & 0 upkeep
Thats assuming you pay 75 GB and get only those +2 on temple ruleholding.
If it works defensively as well I guess I can understand the upkeep of 1 GB
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Can a Small Palace be upgraded to a Royal Palace? And if so, would that be a new Construction action with a total cost of 10GB, or something different?
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Can a Small Palace be upgraded to a Royal Palace? And if so, would that be a new Construction action with a total cost of 10GB, or something different?
OoC: I think that a small palace can be upgraded to a royal palace and that the cost of the upgrade is 10 GB. However, I assume that one has to maintain the existing structure during the upgrade.
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Brandon is correct.
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Grand Cathedral:
As per rules page 88:
DDC 20, Cost 75 GB, upkeep 1 GB, get a +2 asset bonus on all Create holding (temple) and Rule holding (temple) actions.
Are that finale? There have been some debate but Bjørn have not said it is about to get changed. DDC 20 with instability and court max at 6 (due to province size of court loacation) is a real tough one to finish
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Grand Cathedral:
As per rules page 88:
DDC 20, Cost 75 GB, upkeep 1 GB, get a +2 asset bonus on all Create holding (temple) and Rule holding (temple) actions.
Are that finale? There have been some debate but Bjørn have not said it is about to get changed. DDC 20 with instability and court max at 6 (due to province size of court loacation) is a real tough one to finish
DDC set to 18. I will also look at the cost/effect ratio and make a ruling later.
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Great and thanks for the highspeed reply on this one :)
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Great and thanks for the highspeed reply on this one :)
A DM answers exactly when he means to.
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Aint you the Clever one; just like Gandalf in Lord of the Rings arriving to Shire ;)
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Aint you the Clever one; just like Gandalf in Lord of the Rings arriving to Shire ;)
You're not too bad yourself :)