Author Topic: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien  (Read 27165 times)

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Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2011, 03:12:28 AM »
The guardians of morality can only be trusted to be moral, when it is not to their own gain. To describe in any way the Tribunal, as an institution of peers, would be a direct lie.

Its a farce is what it is. :-)
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Offline X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2011, 04:11:46 AM »
I fail to see, in Anuirean society, why it would be expected to be a trial of her peers?

Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2011, 05:03:01 PM »
Venting:
I love the fact that GeM was convicted for doing too litle too late against ToG, when she were the first to publicly declare ToG heretics, and the first to use military force against ToG temples.

Next time I so much as hear a rumor that a temple might possibly be heretic the only prudent thing to do would be to burn it to the ground.

Just fustration... :P

A pity that Gerardine assumed that everyone knew that and didn't mention it in her defence - of course anything which undermines the Pontiff's victory by suggesting that he had help might not have been welcomed!

Politics will decide the verdict - that's never really been in doubt.  I'd expect penance rather than the stake though, likely one which leaves IHH with a significant stake in the city!  There has been condemnation of weakness, failing to take every possible step, but not of willing aiding and encouraging of Him.  When you compare her failure to act with Diemed's alliance with the Red Wind in order to stop the Conclave from cleansing the city she almost looks innocent. ::)
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Offline X-Ghieste & HOT/GH (Matt)

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2011, 05:10:19 PM »
I am amused by how skewed some comments are on the trial. Hilarious.

It is also worth noting the Pontiff has not allowed any party to actually give evidence or ask proper questions. All very dubious. :)
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Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2011, 06:11:14 PM »
I am amused by how skewed some comments are on the trial. Hilarious.

It is also worth noting the Pontiff has not allowed any party to actually give evidence or ask proper questions. All very dubious. :)

The Pontiff chose the judges, the accusations, and all that remains is for us to see the verdicts that he chose as well - I would be amazed if they don't make clear than cleansing the city was the glorious victory crowning the magnificence of his Pontificate while leaving Ilien as an IHH stronghold  ::)

To me the only real question is whether he leaves Geraldine in power (subject to a penance that he levies) or if he puts in his own puppet.
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Offline X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2011, 06:15:00 PM »
The first item to remember with this is that these are NOT modern religions or religious groups.  These folks, particularly the Haelynites among them, really believe that this world is secondary to the hereafter - that, yes, it IS better to die than to break faith with your god, and that a true believer must CERTAINLY die before leading others into sin and blasphemy.  The more forgiving ones may understand that to fail to do so is a sign of weakness, not of outright EVIL, but it's still a failure on Geraldine's part to them.

Second, sure, politics are involved.  With Diem in there, that'd be hard to avoid, but nothing in Anuire is decided without politics.  That said, even the folks who aren't threatened by ILIEN are threatened by the OTG church.  They have to step on it HARD to try to keep it from spreading, which means they need to publicly smack down anyone who's involved themselves with it to make a point.  And, Linde, you may have been the first to publically declare them heretic, but the other regents didn't have them in their provinces.  I can't speak for what's been happening from a first-person view, but from the outside the Countess's actions look very self-serving - she didn't act against the OTG until 1) she was safe to do so, proving (at least to a strong-believer priest) that she cared more for her own skin than her faith, and 2) that she was more concerned with bringing the temples in to try to ward off Diem when it became clear she couldn't do so herself than in doing The Right Thing.

Third, this Tribunal is clearly set up for multiple conflicting purposes.  On the one hand, the selection of members must've been meant to satisfy a lot of irate people - why else would Archduke Diem and a Boer noble paladin from a thousand miles away be included on a panel judging questions of religious corruption??  On the other hand, the Pontiff has systematically pissed off as many members of that panel as possible, starting with ignoring, from what I hear, the judgement of the CoT, and proceeding to deny the panel's members any significant time to question Geraldine or witnesses, investigate evidence, or generally do much of anything except accept the judgements of unnamed IHH priests that he hands them.  Given evidence that they probably don't feel they can trust and an (apparently) partisan Chairman who keeps pissing them off, it's not surprising that they'd err on the side of making sure a possibly-blasphemous Countess isn't left on the throne of one of the most powerful provinces in Anuire, is it?  From their perspective, they lose nothing by convicting her falsely (and she'll surely be comforted and rewarded in the afterlife if she's innocent), but if they falsely clear her of charges, then they could have a disaster on their hands down the line. 

All in all, while the Pontiff may have saved Ilien's bacon for the moment, I think the Countess would have been better served with a more 'proper' Tribunal - one given time to examine matters, to speak with her, to really judge her actions instead of simply Passing Judgement.  Denying this group what they consider their proper respect and the time to make informed decisions only sets them up to grumpily vote for a bonfire then stalk away furiously.  Sure, Diem would still vote for burning regardless, and the OIT is known for taking a damned hard line against things like this, but the RCS, given time to consider, is not an unfair group, the WIT would have listened to the evidence of their own eyes and ears much better than to Wallac's dog-and-pony-show, and neither Mordred nor the ETN seem inclined to burn Geraldine for the sake of safety even now.

I think, regardless, she'd have been forced to step down as regent, but I think she'd survive.  Which I'm sure would be very preferable to her than the alternative.

Offline X-Ilien & PCE/GeM (Linde)

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2011, 06:53:52 PM »
Well, I agree with much of what you say Bobby...

But if landed regents are ment to deal with churches that are not declared heretical by CoT, then the only way landed regents can make sure they are not faced with charges of herecy of the mind for acting too slowly, is to rid their land of all temples.

So I would argue that this is more a question of politics than a question of faith.

Personally I would have expected the pontiff to make a statement and a decree after his first visit in Ilien, and if swift resistance from Ilien against TOG was not the result, then the charges would stick.

What about landed regents who act against non heretical temples in their land?
Is SM a heretic for ridding her realm of HA?
Is RiD a heretic for creating a new temple?

And what about holding back important information in the fight against shadow and endangering the lifes of innocents?
Is IHH heretical for not telling of those shadowbeasts sooner?
Can the IHH prove that the beast was safely in custody, and no danger to the public while they transported it from Roesone to Ilien?

The CoT who are the authority on the area NEED to make a descission publicly known before they expect action from the landed regents. If not what is to stop them from interfeering any time they disagree with local politics with a charge of herecy of the mind for acting too slowly?

If the clergy simply believe that this world is seccond to the afterlife, and all rules in this world can be added retroactively to protect the afterlife, then they are a danger to temporal law and order, and should be dealt with accordingly by landed regents.

So I am actually glad we have had this "incident" in Ilien, for it allows us to explore some of the temple vs landed regent dynamics.
Her Excellency Geraldine el-Mesir,
Countess of the Free City of Illien
Guildmistress of Port of Call Exchange,
Mage of Ilien & Protector of her people.


Offline X-CJS/Ruormad Coumain (Tristan)

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2011, 07:01:46 PM »
To me the only real question is whether he leaves Geraldine in power (subject to a penance that he levies) or if he puts in his own puppet.
Only if he can keep a dead woman on the throne.

This isn't like a modern court where you are found guilty and then a punishment is decided, the punishment is known about in advance written in the book of laws and if found guilty it is applied.

Geraldine has been found guilty and will die.

What about landed regents who act against non heretical temples in their land?
Is SM a heretic for ridding her realm of HA?
Is RiD a heretic for creating a new temple?
No and maybe. Although if the SM used force then it'd be a touch and go matter and for RiD it all depends on the doctrine of the new church.

And what about holding back important information in the fight against shadow and endangering the lifes of innocents?
Is IHH heretical for not telling of those shadowbeasts sooner?
Can the IHH prove that the beast was safely in custody, and no danger to the public while they transported it from Roesone to Ilien?
Depends on their reasons and it doesn't really matter. The IHH doesn't need to prove anything on transporting.

As it is Geraldine is burning because the Tribunal is stacked with her enemies and their allies and people who are being pissed off by the Pontiff.
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Offline X-Ilien & PCE/GeM (Linde)

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2011, 07:06:46 PM »
Only if he can keep a dead woman on the throne.

This isn't like a modern court where you are found guilty and then a punishment is decided, the punishment is known about in advance written in the book of laws and if found guilty it is applied.

Geraldine has been found guilty and will die.
SM have been found guilty of herecy.... and she still lives, ruling her domain no less

The world isnt as black and white as you describe it
Her Excellency Geraldine el-Mesir,
Countess of the Free City of Illien
Guildmistress of Port of Call Exchange,
Mage of Ilien & Protector of her people.


Offline X-Ghieste & HOT/GH (Matt)

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2011, 07:10:03 PM »
Can I suggest we back off this now for a bit while we await resolution? The more it is talked about OOC the more it sounds like people are trying to sway the argument one way or the other, even if they are not and it will just get people's backs up OOC.

The meta game has to stop sometime.
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Offline X-Ilien & PCE/GeM (Linde)

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2011, 07:11:56 PM »
I agree, let this be over soon
Her Excellency Geraldine el-Mesir,
Countess of the Free City of Illien
Guildmistress of Port of Call Exchange,
Mage of Ilien & Protector of her people.


Offline X-DM Jon

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2011, 08:57:47 PM »
Only if he can keep a dead woman on the throne.

This isn't like a modern court where you are found guilty and then a punishment is decided, the punishment is known about in advance written in the book of laws and if found guilty it is applied.

Geraldine has been found guilty and will die.
SM have been found guilty of herecy.... and she still lives, ruling her domain no less

The world isnt as black and white as you describe it

The Swordmage wasn't exactly found guilty of heresy, she was once an adherent of Belinik and as such an openly proclaimed heretic, but went over to Cuiraecen and was redeemed through fighting the Eyeless One, at great danger to her life. That doesn't mean that she's well loved to this day though, but her realm is placed in a position where this was possible, in the cover of a lot of weak or troubled realms - caused by the collapse of Ghoere and the constant strife around her (Mhoried, Elinie and Osoerde have all been either fighting each other or wreathed in civil war - we're talking the last 10-20 years maybe...
 AND she had an accomplice in Ghieste, who had no interest in seeing someone else take her place.

 Ilien in comparison has none of these things. No allies, because Roesone is too busy internally and besides doesn't have that bad a relationship with Diemed. So it's easier for a temple to intervene in your case and try to get what they want. Don't think the temples wouldn't want to trash the Swordmage if they could (I personally was planning for it around the end of RoE I, use the Conclave to invade first Ghieste, then Tornilen and take out both rotten eggs up there.)

 Now as for the matter of burning temples... Well I wouldn't want to say too much or too little, only that the temples would be fools if they were to make it common knowledge that you can burn their holdings and not suffer the consequences. The last to do it on a large scale was Iron King Raenech.
 It's the constant balance between faith and noble, and the matter of the Patriarch making his own temple has as much to do with this as anything - it's only because of the relative weakness of the LPA that this has happened and the fact that noone cares to aid the LPA in their troubles currently. Apart from advancing their own interests obviously.


 I'm answering several chains of thought in this one... And not so much the one I've actually quoted :) - let me just take a shot at that.

If the final verdict is guilty in some way (seeing as the WIT has just declared that the whole thing is close to a farce run as the Pontiff likes), then the Countess still has a chance to prove herself through action and be redeemed, but it requires a priest willing to vouch for her.
 It happened with the Swordmage, it happened with the Warlock (and he's still an evil bastard, but I needed him against the EO :) and it happened with Iron King Raenech. None of them did it under pressure of death however, but because they saw the advantage of it. And that's where Geraldine's situation is different again - how can she show her willingness to redemption without everyone believing it a lie of necessity?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 10:51:22 PM by DM Jon »

Offline X-Mhoried/Constantine Mhor (Wiktor)

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2011, 11:38:39 PM »
it happened with the Warlock (and he's still an evil bastard, but I needed him against the EO :)

I apologise for the OOC intrusion but I felt really proud upon reading this comment  8)

Three cheers for poor old Regien!
His Grace Constantine Mhor the Duke of Mhoried

Offline X-DM Jon

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2011, 12:17:43 AM »
it happened with the Warlock (and he's still an evil bastard, but I needed him against the EO :)

I apologise for the OOC intrusion but I felt really proud upon reading this comment  8)

Three cheers for poor old Regien!

Three cheers indeed  ;D

Offline X-Osoerde (Alan)

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Re: OoC Mirror: Tribunal in Ilien
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2011, 03:02:34 AM »
I am kinda curious....

Where is el-Hadid?  He is surely interested in the outcome of the PCE and ensuring that it can continue to provide for Djira.
Yes, wyrmling, the meat is made all the more tender by armor...