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RoE Archive => The Imperial City => Courts of Anuire => RoE2 Archives => Sword & Crown 1535HC => : X-Elinie/RiD (Niels) January 08, 2009, 03:59:08 PM
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Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta has reserved a chamber to discuss the topic "Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms." Rashid is the Duke of Elinie, and along with Mhoried, Osoerde and several other regents, he has holdings in the goblin realm of Markazor - As the meeting begins, he starts with the following;
"By the Grace of Haelyn, the human race have expanded everywhere, across the surface of Cerilia. We have had dealings with dwarves, elves and halflings and these races have integrated into our realms and live peacefully in mutual understanding.
The orogs are beasts with a culture steeped in violence, too far gone for peaceful relations. The goblins have historically been treated as pests, vermin to be driven out or destroyed.
However, with the taming of Markazor, goblins now swear fealthy to human masters and present us with a conundrum aswell as an opportunity.
This is the reason for this meeting here today. A noble is obliged to protect his people from the predations of monsters, but when the "people" are what passed for monsters, mere years ago, what then, does the good regent do?"
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OoC: Turn 62 & the S&C hasn't started yet. Do this as a dispatch or use the Courts of Anuire.
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My apologies! :)
I will withdraw my post until the S&C is officially opened.
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Super, no harm in preparing the way eh. But there is actually a forum wherein you nobles are welcome to mingle. Just send a rep to speak for you.
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IC thread reopened.
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The Sword Mage is the first to speak up. In this meeting, and for most of the S&C, she is not wearing her mask or robe of blades. A young man is also accompanying her, constantly by her side and talking with her in-between sessions.
She speaks, her voice clear and easily carried across the room.
"I know this matter has been discussed earlier, I do not usually interfere in other's realms unless asked to... so I have remained silent. However, since you ask, I will give my opinion."
She glances around, perhaps seeing if anyone will challenge her right?
"Goblins are hardly monsters. They are often harmful and barbaric, yes, but nothing indicates that they do not have some potential for living in other ways. There has been peaceful relations with goblin realms in Anuirea's past, no reason to think it cannot happen again. What I think is important, is that you show that you can control them. Currently the Goblins of your province have acquired a reputation as raiders of nearby provinces. Control them and make them respect their neighbour's borders - that will be a huge step."
She falls silent, awaiting comments or responses from others.
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Sir Guy de Nichalier nods in agreement at the words of the Sword Mage, then rises to speak.
"I know for some this is an emotional issue. I have lost friends to goblins. But rather then try with our mortal wisdom to decipher the answer to this most excellent question raised by the Noble Patriarch, I propose the answer lies in the "Book of Laws." Surely there are scholars of that most holy book in our presence here today?"
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The baron of Roesone, Arvour Raemel joins in on the conversation. The baron's mercenary past is well known among the peers of Anuire as is his dedication to Cuiraecen after having taken the mantle of paladinhood.
"Ladies and lords of Anuire. I will be the first to say that never have I met a goblin that wasn't trying to end my life. As you can see, they haven't succeeded..." with a slight grin he adds "yet."
"And I've killed more than my fair share of their ilk and I expect to kill many more in the days to come, defending the borders of Roesone from the minions of the Spider. Why, just last season I was chasing after a particularly cunning group that managed to get past my guards by employing a ruse much more sophisticated than we usually consider the goblins capable of."
"What I mean is that I've had plenty of chances to see with my own eyes that they are an intelligent breed of pests."
He looks at the duchess of Tornilen and offers a polite nod
"But the fair lady of Tornilen is not wrong in assuming that they might be capable of something bigger. Cuiraecen teaches us that a show of strength, albeit tempered by wisdom and restraint, can curb an opponent's ambition. I see no reason why this wouldn't work with goblins."
"I am not wise enough myself to judge whether goblins have a soul or whether their evil is inherent or merely thrust upon them, but I would not judge a regent for trying to contain the goblins with methods other than butchery, as long as that regent accepts the responsibility for the safety of his human subjects and ensures that they do not come to harm from these... civilized and obedient goblins"
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Duchess Laela Flaertes of Tuornen takes a small step closer to the debaters, greet each silently and discreetly wait for each to acknowledge Her gesture that She would wish to speak.
“An truly impressively balanced statement from the Baron of Roesone. Your words speak of the hope for real peace and security through Justice. Strength guided by equal wisdom and vision.
We will do well to not involve Ourselves between such titans as are present for the deliberation on this matter. Goblins bother Us little for We suffer worse dangers. But We follow these deliberation closely just the same as the principles at stake may influence fare and wide.
We fully admit, and claim the right for personal pride in that We are not solely of human decent. But Our realm is human, and thus are We on the side of humankind in any and all matters.
Thus in the deliberation on this matter of goblins We see with joy and some admiration that even the good Baron, as One that has faced the evil of goblins, and their danger, and still do, even the Baron can keep such tempered and balanced a view.
We are in some measure humbled by Your wisdom Baron.”
The baron of Roesone, Arvour Raemel joins in on the conversation. The baron's mercenary past is well known among the peers of Anuire as is his dedication to Cuiraecen after having taken the mantle of paladinhood.
"Ladies and lords of Anuire. I will be the first to say that never have I met a goblin that wasn't trying to end my life. As you can see, they haven't succeeded..." with a slight grin he adds "yet."
"And I've killed more than my fair share of their ilk and I expect to kill many more in the days to come, defending the borders of Roesone from the minions of the Spider. Why, just last season I was chasing after a particularly cunning group that managed to get past my guards by employing a ruse much more sophisticated than we usually consider the goblins capable of."
"What I mean is that I've had plenty of chances to see with my own eyes that they are an intelligent breed of pests."
He looks at the duchess of Tornilen and offers a polite nod
"But the fair lady of Tornilen is not wrong in assuming that they might be capable of something bigger. Cuiraecen teaches us that a show of strength, albeit tempered by wisdom and restraint, can curb an opponent's ambition. I see no reason why this wouldn't work with goblins."
"I am no wise enough myself to judge whether goblins have a soul or whether their evil is inherent or merely thrust upon them, but I would not judge a regent for trying to contain the goblins with methods other than butchery, as long as that regent accepts the responsibility for the safety of his human subjects and ensures that they do not come to harm from these... civilized and obedient goblins"
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The declaration of Lady Flaertes draws shocked looks from the Alamien delegation. Lady Alam exchanges a look with some grim-looking knights of the Alamien household, before looking at her husband, raising with two spots of anger burning on his otherwise pale face. The Archduke takes the floor with a voice carefully checked:
"Ladies and Lords of the Empire, I would second Lord Arvour and Lord Guy in requesting further information on the subject at hand before taking a firm stance. It is nevertheless my duty to point out that, as a knight of Haelyn and lord of Alamie, my lands and my vassals have constantly suffered from and battled the hordes of Goblins stemming endlessly from the Fivea Peaks. As have been doing my neighbours, from Endier and Ghieste, in their struggle against the Spider's minions.
My heart tells me that it is difficult to ever consider Goblins as something else than vile and mean raiders, cowards on their own when faced with naked steel and always prone to kill, maim and plunder our lands. As far as I recall, those creatures have outlived most Empires they have been part of, as arrow-fodder and slaves, be it the mighty realm of the twisted Sidhelien, and seemingly the late one of the Black Prince Raesene. Why should we open our arms to those who have been mistrusted and despised by the Shadow itself? Shall we forget who they sided with at Desimaar?"
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Seeing the situation turning to a point, Patriarch Rashid interjects; "There are noone present, who are not aware of the dreadful past relations humans have had with goblins."
"I have personally battled goblins, and Elinie has a long history of suffering raids from Markazor"
"I am inclined to remind the Archduke, that the elves also joined Azrai at mount Deismaar. Is it not true, that we have come to forgive them, and even integrate them into our civilizations?"
Rashid indicate Duchess Flaertes; "Or perhaps the Archduke of Alamier is more willing condemn those who are not blessed with looks as appealing as the present company?"
"Indeed, in other parts of Anuire, goblins are living in relative peace, as suppressed poor on the fringes of our realms."
"But to the matter at hand. I have some twenty thousand goblins who has sworn loyalty to the Duchy of Elinie"
"I am a Paladin of Avanalae. I cannot, should not, and will not, deny them the chance to redeem what can be redeemed."
"I ask of you, kindhearted, bright, and brave nobles, how do you advice me to handle them. Indeed, you have a unique opportunity to set a fingerprint on future policy regarding our greenskinned neighbors."
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Why should we open our arms to those who have been mistrusted and despised by the Shadow itself? Shall we forget who they sided with at Desimaar?"
"Archduke Alam, if Desimaar should be our sole guide, then some peers in this room should befall the same fate we would grant upon the goblins." His hand seems to point out the Duchess of Tornilien and the Militant Order of Cuiraecen.
"What would you propose be done with them?" The question is rhetorical because he immediately continues.
"Patriarch, deal with them as your conscience directs you. Is this not the answer you are looking for?" He says curiously.
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Rashid simply shrugs at Williams question. "It would be a poor debate if the answers were given in advance. Certainly I have hopes and dreams, but truly, I am seeking inspiration on the manner of approach to a complicated issue."
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"I do not think it complicated, Patriarch." William says.
"But I do not desire to needlessly offend, either."
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"I am afraid Patriarch, that Elves have refused to ackowledge ever since, their decline and our grasp of Anuire and beyond. I would not say that the Manslayer and the Emerald Queen are vibrant parts of our Empire. At least, House Alam does not trust them, as of now. And I would like to remind you, Patriarch, that at the end of the day, I am very afraid that your good intentions might lead some of the present members to raise humanoid troops under their banners and use them against Anuireans.
Twenty thousands Goblins, Patriach, who had been minions of the Black Prince not so long ago. How many hundred thousansd of tainted fangs and claws does it make?"
Turning to Lord Osoer, he continues:
"Your Grace, I hear you, nevertheless, in the case at hand, Deismaar has been followed by way too many infamous examples."
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The Book of Laws clearly states that 'thou shalt not suffer the spawn of evil to live'
Truth be told the good book those explicitly name goblins as spawn of evil...but then again, if they are not, who are? In any case Orthodox dogma has always been keen on extermination of goblins.
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The Archduke looks, in turn, at the Holy Men, of the WIT and OIT. Meanwhile his Lady wife cannot help but notice a certain smugness, passing as a cloud during summer's day, in the features of her husband and liege.
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Marquis Bellamie of Morcosoer (not the same man as BAROn Bellamie of South Hold!) stands and speaks with a clear voice:
"What does it matter if goblins are irredeemably evil or not? At best they are vermin, and the only thing to do with vermin is to kill them as soon as you see them. Fail to do that - he looks toward the Patriarch - and they multiply and become are serious pest problem."
There is some general laughter.
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"While it can be understood that the individual Goblin or such like creatures may contain their own virtue and some measure of loyalty, it MUST be said that as a tribe, nation or even as a race they do not evidence so. They must be dealt with as outlined in the Book and all these new fangled and wooly attitudes of new liberal thought must be seen for what they are - the seperation from and direct path away from those common sense and wise teachings we have all come to live by."
"Drive them from those places we inhabit or they will nip and bite and infect like the rats they are so close to. Treat and talk with them at your souls peril."
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Kaven rises.
"Tell me, Lord Marquis: Would you say the same about robbers in your lands? Or do you judge the goblins based on their alien features and green skin?
It matters, because if we can cull the goblins and start integrating them in our Anuirean society, then our children, or childrens children, will not have to fight the same wars or beat back the same numbers of raiders, as we currently do. Anuire faces enough threats, that we might be forced to accept that some things must change for us to endure..."
Turning to Ghieste, he continues.
"Goblins, peaceful goblins currently residing in Medoere, contributed in part to stop attempted raids into our lands by the Spiders forces. Granted, we had to contact them, and are constantly aware of possible differences in allegience, but by talking to these goblins, we derived possible routes and thus was able to effectively stop raids from the Fell... I do believe Medoere is the only realm who suffered of these raids recently, that can claim to have done so. That alone, should speak volumes of the routes people like myself and the Patriarch try to advocate."
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Bellamie:
"I judge them only by their action and those of their forefathers...and the words of mighty Haelyn, as written in the Book of Laws. Robbers I deal with according to the laws of the land.
So yes, if it pleases you, I do judge them by their skin, because this is what Haelyn, the wise and noble Allfather has told us to do.
In you eagerness to engage in foolish philosophy...have you forgotten that the goblins sides with AZRAI, the face of evil, prince of lies and lord of all that is wicked and bad? The very same Azrai, the Conclave claims, nearly returned not five years ago! And what side do you think the goblins would have taken if THAT HAD COME TO PASS!!!???"
There is much agreement.
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"Hear, hear!"
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"Be that as it may... and no, Lord Marquis, I had Not forgotten... the Anuirean society readily accepts those *humans* who choose to side with the Darkness but wishes to redeem themself... why can we not be so lenient towards goblins?
Have you considered, Lord Marquis, that we Anuireans may currently, and might have so for a long time, be forcing goblins to choose side by way of the ancient proverb 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'? Humans where once the invaders of Anuire as history would recall, and society as a whole has a longer memory than the individual.
Why, I do seem to recall tales, that the elves sided with Azrai against humans for that very reason, but turned against him in the last instance. Peacefull relations where later made with them.
Granted, they are a fairer lot as a whole, to look at... but should that be the measure by which we decide who is friend and who is foe?"
He pauses, then adds.
"And may I add, that the most direct threats to Anuire does not stem from goblins, but rather wicked men and treachery from within."
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Robhan speaks calmly during a pause in the debate:
At Deismaar the elves - even the elves who are known above all for their ability to hold a grudge eternally - turned away from Azrai when they finally saw the truth our ancestors had known for centuries. They made peace treaty with the Empire as it formed and few have been heard of since in peace or war - save those few of Rhoubhe that remain outcast even from their own kind. The elves have never been part of the empire, but they proved that their 'service' to the Shadow was but ill-conceived military alliance when they turned on him at Deismaar - were it not for their inherent godlessness I would judge the Vos far more harshly than the elves!
Have goblins ever forsaken their past in such a manner? Indeed were goblins not shaped by the Dark Lord to suit his whim as were the orogs, gnolls, and ogres? Are we asked to accept all these misshapen brutes to move freely amongst us - with shield and sword should they so wish?
The odd rare few goblins have perhaps proven themselves redeemed - but then does that not merely prove that the vast remainder willingly choose to raid and make war upon us and so deserve our hate and scorn in fullest measure? Does it not prove that the centuries of savagery we are all so bitterly familiar with from goblin realms on our border, are not, as some might say, result of circumstance or outside pressure, but rather the true measure of their soul?
Goblins come in many kinds, and perhaps there are even some lighter shades of grey within the gloom that is the soul of their race that approach the depths of the Vos or other dark specimens of humanity; but can any really say that if left to their own devices, and grown strong in time, even those goblins currently living peaceably would not revert to brutality? A small goblin village may live in peace beside a far greater number of Anuireans, but that is peace borne of fear - not from true desire for mutual growth and respect for our lives.
When I see goblin nations of pride and power stand forth and ask for peace, trade fairly, turn away from the worship of demons, and look to honest labour to provide them with their needs not loot and plunder, then I will consider them more than dangerous beasts, but that day is far, far away - and not one example of such a realm has ever been told of to my knowledge.
Perhaps the good Patriarch of Elenie will prove me wrong, Haelyn be praised if he can for the scions of evil will lose their most willing and numerous followers if the goblins ever forswear evil, perhaps the seeds spoken of in Medoere will grow to show godly fruit, if so I will cheer - but in my heart I know that eternal vigilance will be required to prevent goblins turning on any who consider themselves the goblins' master and wrecking havok on all that was built through their labours.
So for my part I will consider this debate no further, should the coming decades provide evidence to support the hopes of those who see light in even the darkest shadows then I will reconsider my stance, until then I will keep my blade sharp and my troops ready - and stand ready to give my life in the defence of any folk of godly mien who stand defiant 'gainst the dark hordes that would sweep civilisation from this land if good men but slumbered while they advanced.
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Baron Maevous Khaiarén of Rivien, Robhan's oldest brother, and vassal to Boeruine speaks:
"Ever fascinated with elves...when we played at Deismaar in our youth, he would always beg to be and elf, and we would cast him as a goblin instead. Perhaps that is why his head does not fit too well onto that body of his..."
There is much laughter as all the lord recall similar 'battles' in their childhoods
"I say onto you - the sidhe are no better or worse than are goblins. Meaning they a wretched vermin, servants of evil, and enemy of all that is noble and good! Turned away from Azrai you say? More like betrayed him, like they betrayed all that was good and noble when they joined him. And before that...they spent 500 years trying to kill our forefathers!
Even today good men, Anuirean men, followers of the Allfather - they fight and the die on the blades of the Sidhe. As the men of Tuornen ask the men of Boeruine...and ask the commoners of cold Dhoesone what they do when the Hunt rides again!"
There is not so much laughter now...
"Enough of this foolishness! Elves and goblins are not men. They are Other. They are Enemy. So HAS THE LORD DECREED, SO IT IS AND SO IT WILL ALWAYS REMAIN!!!"
His words are loud and his demeanor both agitated and wroth.
"Any man, any man at all, who claims that goblins or elves are the good friends of man or that they even can be trusted, those men are heretics. They take the words of the Allfather and twist them, finding new meaning where none should be found. Such men as they are traitors to their kind, for in their cowardice and weakness that seek to undermine the foundations of what is Anuire."
He pauses and looks over the crowd.
"You think me harsh? Well, imagine what I think of you. For too long have I sat here listening to southern prattle, such as can only be mouthed by those to corrupt and weak to understand what t is to be a man of Anuire."
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Robhan snorts in amusement at the memory - perhaps brother, perhaps - ever does a fair face reveal naught but light while the dark soul within laughs at the fool for their gullible stare; but harken ye to my words - I spoke no goodwill of Rhoubhe that embraced darkness and never turned aside, nor those who willingly followed him - and do so still. Those elves - each and every one of those yet standing - were declared enemy by Haelyn and Roele themselves whilst mortal - and no sign have I heard of since to lift that decree.
Those who betrayed the Shadow have been silent since - I can judge them not by their absences when so many others have failed to answer calls for aid - but be assured, should they ever strike against the folk of Anuire then they will answer to my blade as swiftly as they will your own. Until then I judge the goblins that raid incessantly far more harshly than those few elves who huddle in lonely woods and dream of times long ago.
As to heresy, the innocent child seek friends of all despite the wise words of their elders - even of wolf pups that wander from the forest as I recall, Robhan rubs his arm absently as he speaks, I condemn not those blessedly ignorant of evil's true measure for not recognising scourging fire as the path to purity - instead I stand by to aid them when, inevitably, that wolf tires of what little providence they can spare and seeks heartier fare - as you did long ago.
So stay your wrath brother - it has worthier targets. Stand proud and defiant to taunts of 'old ideas' and 'prejudice' - in your heart you know that you will be proved right and all will thank you for your lonely vigilance - and you need nothing more. Robhan pauses reflectively, save perhaps some mulled cinnamon mead on a cold eve - the harvest was fine last autumn and I owe you a case from that tourney last summer as I recall.
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Archmage of the Conclave of Sorcery, Maester Kaleiman, takes the floor.
"I do not usually care for the endless political discussions of you nobles and priests, but this is INTRIGUING! So let me lay out a quick summary of the Colleges research on the ancient goblin race..."
The old man composes his thoughts before continuing in a clear lecturing tone. As if he's talking to a bunch of college students and not the lords and ladies of Anuire.
"There are certain... Errors of perception... In the good High Marshalls portrayal of the facts.
First of all; the goblins have been around since before the Shadow chased the Anuirean people out of Aduria. They are a species with myths as old as the elves. Indeed the two races have been long at odds with one another.
We have, through painstaking investigation into the most ancient of tablets, sources and documents, come to the conclusion that a main part of the reason why the Anuirean settlers were succesful, was due to an endless chain of conflict between the two races.
It has often been claimed that our priesthoods were what made the difference, but that is merely a factor amongst many."
At this, several representatives of the Orthodox and Traditionalist temples murmur angrily, words like "heresy" and such, but the old man continues relentlessly.
"Indeed the Gods were not as important a factor in the creation of our Anuirean nations, as were the retreating elves. Research shows that man worked first as elven allies against the goblins, then as usurpers of elven forests and lands, as the goblins had been driven back. Opportunistic to the last, humanity grasped every last chance they could for victory. Just as it is today.
Our glorious victory over the elves was a victory over a wartorn and weary race.
That is why the elves so readily joined Azrai, they saw not the Shadow, but the Keeper of Secrets. They saw a chance to even the score against the encroaching, backstabbing humans. The goblins just saw raw unbridled power and bent their knees before it!
Therein lies the truth of their being. They respect force! Not ethics. You will rarely, if ever, see them change side due to a question of good or evil. If you understand that, then perhaps you are able to admire their purity. They are survivors. Unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.
The goblins of Thurazor are a testiment to this. They are kept in check by strong neighbours to the west and work as mercenaries for Dhoesone in the east. They raid where they can and learn a human trade where they must.
IF the good lords of Anuire were to show strength in Markazor, greater strength than any goblin lord or awnsheglien, then the goblins there could, feasibly, become something akin to the goblins of Thurazor. Not controlled, but not uncontrollable either.
Try to eradicate them and you will only scatter them, and create a need for them to unite under a leader powerful enough.
That is why I see GREAT PROMISE in the Patriarch's thoughts."
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"Thank you, Maester!" Kaven states, as he leans forward once more.
"Men die to protect our ideals... that is a fact at the moment, but it is also an undeniable fact that the biggest threat to our way of life does not lie with the goblins. Nay, the shadow has chosen other aspects to haunt our homes, as we have culled the threat and diminished any attacks to raids from various bands of hungry goblinoids.
Words, such as those of Lord Baron Maevous are excactly the words that lead to a continued conflict. As the good Maester Kaleiman states, we scatter the foe and force them to unite, when assimilation under a strenghtened human rule would be the innovative, and perhaps wiser, move.
I am not saying that we should throw down our weapons and embrace the foe, no. This is a lengthy project, and trust is no where to be found from either race towards the other. But we should consider the thought, that peace... or perhaps a permanent ceasefire... could be lurking in the horison."
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The baron listens attentively at Maester Kaleiman's words
"In this the teachings of Cuiraecen seem best suited to dealing with the goblins. Strength and wisdom. Alas, I doubt this will ever be a good enough solution in the South for as long as the Spider lives, but it might work where goblins remain free from his influence. I will certainly follow the development of the goblin situation in Elinie with great interest.
I have no desire to exterminate the goblins if that would mean that even a single of my subjects would die unnecessarily, but I will certainly remain vigilant and merciless against any goblin raider daring to set foot into Roesone.
And as for this whole debate on the inherent and irredeemable evil imposed on the whole race, well, then we'd have to apply the same principle on all those who have elven or Vos blood in them, and yet we accept as our peers the fair ladies of Tornilen and Tuornen. I'd certainly defend them against would be persecutors and witch hunters should someone threaten them on account of their heritage, and if there were a goblin proven honorable and true, I'd defend him also, for that is what my faith in the Stormlord the Defender requires.
However, I have yet to meet such a goblin anywhere in this world"
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Baron Maevous calms down a little after hearing his brother speak.
Then Blaede Khaiarén, Baron of Soileite (Elinie) and second oldest of the brothers speak up:
"I have dealt with both sidhe and goblin in my time. And I must say that it has left me suspicious and wary. Goblins are tricky and treacherous, and can only be trusted as far as you can throw them. And the smaller the more devious."
General laughter
"I cannot claim to know who created the wretched race or if they are as a race inherently evil; but I do know, from my own experience, that as individuals there is little moral strength in them. So while I do not condone the killing of goblin 'innocents' such as there might be, I challenge any man here to tell me of a goblin friend or loved one."
"The sidhe are even more difficult. For they certainly look fair upon the outside! Yet the sidhe can be more cruel than any goblin, and more fickle and treacherous too. Does that make all of them evil? Perhaps not; but that doesn't mean they can be trusted."
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Cardinal-Prelate Kharnmoin speaks:
"Maester Kaleiman sees things like the scholar that he is. Which means he fails to distinguish the hand of god from what is unimportant. But be that as it may.
I would add, however, that this tale has many versions. Not just Kaleiman's. The WIT too knows that there were goblins in Cerilia long before man came here. And not surprisingly the warred with elves. Could it be any different?
And than men and sidhe both fought goblins is not in doubt. But did they fight as allies? Perhaps, perhaps not. Perhaps some did, but not all - the Deretha for one fought both sidhe and goblin at the same time.
But the goblins did finally break, thanks to the presence of man. And what happened next? Did man try to steal from the sidhe, or did he only take what was his, taken by force of arms from the goblins? Might it not be the sidhe that suddenly found that with the goblins crushed, they had little use for the newcomers?
I know there are many shades of truth, even in this tale. But I also know that if I listen to the voice of Haelyn I will find the truth. And so will you. And therefore I say to you; do not cast doubt on yourselves, do not look for errors in your own ways, do not hold yourself accountable for the wrongs visited by others."
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Saender Khaiarén, third of the brothers (there are five, where Robhan is the youngest) rises to speak; he was invested as Blademaster (High Priests) of the HTC only last year, being one of the most experienced paladins in Anuire:
"I feel I must say my part as well.
I find that I loathe goblins, but that I understand them. They are just like men, only very wicked men who has never heard the word of God. A goblin can be understood in that it wants food in its belly, a roof and a fire, and a woman - preferably an ugly goblins woman that is - to share its bed. It desires gold and power, and dreams of one day rising in station or seeing his grandchildren do something great. Now, as I said they are wicked and ugly and dirty and many other bad things besides, but they are not beasts. They think and they hunger as do men - and they do have souls! Goblins CAN be redeemed if given the chance. In Thurazor there are thousands of goblins that pray to the Stormlord every day of strength and guidance..."
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Lord Alam stands to speak:
"Alas, Blademaster, should Goblins be beast then their would be some glimpse of hope. However, those creatures appear, for the last thousand years, to have threaded willingly on a dark path.
I would like to know, whether you, Blademaster, would consider ordinating Goblin paladins of the Stormlord, and then, should the day come, ride with them into battle? Would you trust them with your life, or the life of those you have sworn to fight?"
Turning to the Patriarch of Elinie, he adds:
"Just as you, Your Grace, would you add some of those loathsome creatures into your household? Or would you be glad in keeping them as labourers scavenging the hills of late Markhazor in an attempt to feel your coffers with taxes, and a cheap as well as expandable, if unreliable, host?"
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Quietly observing, Rashid focuses on Lord Alam when he is spoken to;
"If Elinie is to carry the torch of humanity and show our strength to the goblins, then I see no other path than letting the goblins aspire to certain positions of power.
Indeed, some tasks may be better performed by someone fervent in their desire for justice, even if it is inspired by cruelty.
I have listened with great interest to what has been said here. Cruel men fear the law just as much as, or more, than kind men. I am no stranger to law and I will apply sufficient force to crush any goblin thought of rebellion or raiding.
The flipside however, and there must be one, or we gain nothing, is that the goblins will be allowed to hold positions of power. Perhaps even over humans in some areas or cases.
In addition, the traditional goblin reason for raiding is food. I believe that alleviating this need can demotivate many goblins. In addition, they breed fast and their urge for violence must be controlled and focused. Raising a few units would seem to be a solution to controlling various hotheads by giving them the task of protecting our northern borders.
I will see what I can do, to protect humans from the harsh rules that must be instigated in Morcosoer. - First privilege of course, being that no human may be slain or maimed without verdict by a human authority."
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The Blademaster replies to Alam:
"Paladins? Now that IS as silly a notion as I have ever heard. A paladin is a paragon of virtue. A priest somewhat more virtuous than most men - hopefully. And a worshiper...need not be all that virtuous. I merely stated that goblins are creatures with motivations much like our own, and that if given the opportunity they will follow the Stormlord and play at civilization. I never said they were the paragons of good."
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Maester Kaleiman can barely contain his enthusiasm anymore, he erupts into a series of squawk-like noises?
"Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Most interesting!"
Then he storms down and takes the floor, a flurry of exitement over the academic turn the debate has taken.
"First I would like to answer the good Archprelate of the WIT.
Young Kharnmoien, you are quite correct that the human endeavour is lost in the mists of time, sources to their movements and actions are few and scattered, and not very scholarly in their nature. That is something that came with the rise of the Empire when old men like myself got the time and opportunity to loaf about! Hohohoho!
BUT! We do have access to elven sources of a written nature, and they are all brimming over with implications of a grand betrayal. Now this may VERY WELL be the planted work of the Keeper of Secrets, the Shadow incarnate, but Azrai rarely worked with what wasn't there to begin with. He was a comparatively lazy deity, always looking for secrets that he might use to make others do his bidding.
Now take goblins, it is often forgotten that those we know today are the woeful remains of an empire capable of fighting both elves and dwarves. Thurazor is something of the remains of this, Markazor is not. Markazor is only recently come out from under the terrible shadow of the Gorgon. To think these goblins can be turned into useful citizens, is to invite disaster.
It IS necessary to keep them in close check and pool Anuirean power there to do so. Don't forget that compared to all other fronts in our end of the world, the Gorgon's Crown is where the threat of invasion is still greatest. Simply because we DO NOT KNOW what the current situation there is!
Any talk of controlling, changing or destroying goblins should take this into account.
Control or change can fail and leave enemies in our midst. Destruction will strengthen the enemies east of Markazor.
We need the goblins of Markazor and we need them to heed their own interests, not those of the Gorgon or any other powers. Therefore a balance is necessary! Equal whip and carrot I say.
-
Lord Alam turns to Patriarch Rashid:
"Your Grace, I can only pray for your people and for Elinie, for I fear that tough times are awaiting your land and your subjects. Nevertheless, your heart must be made of steel for considering to arm our all-time foes and alleviating their hunger. I wonder how Anuirean will reacts to this, for in the end, it will be perceived as a tribute for peace.'
Turning to the Blademaster, he concludes:
"Your reply does honour your common sense, Blademaster. It seems that beaneath the mollifying words still lingers the old prejudices, which Alamie shares with you."
-
IC:
Elamien Lamier, who has been present at this forum, rises, during a general pause, and speaks:
"With all due respect to Maester Kaleiman, I do necessarily share his view that the Gorgon is the greatest threat to the security of northeastern Anuire."
She then sits down.
-
Personally Maester Kaleiman I prefer the records of the Karamhul - they at least have never considered us enemies, nor are they as fanciful as the elves. Dull, pedantic, and prone to digressions of lineage they may be but the records of the lore masters of Baruk-Azhik are noted for their clarity - even on matters one would expect them to shun.
The Karamhul records make clear that Anuireans fought mostly in the hills and plains when first they came - and that these were inhabited mostly by goblins. Further they suggest that while first our ancestors fought beside Elves, as they pushed back the goblins the goblins were forced into the forests - and while through no intent of our ancestors thus drove the goblins to make war upon the elves. Some records indicate that the elves termed this betrayal and made of it excuse to wage war upon us.
Personally I expect that the elves fought on no side but their own aside from brief alliances of convenience, put simply, elven warfare is a matter of strike swiftly and fade - and suits neither our ancestor's tactics nor those of the goblins. The truth is however buried in politics for many on all sides wished to profit from war and distrust - and so where the good books are silent I judge from the deeds of recent centuries which are familiar to us all.
Early records from all sources are also most inconclusive regarding whether the goblins we know of were altered by the Shadow, some records tell of goblins using sorcery commonly - not something I have seen in those of past years. Others talk of goblins where the descriptions make clear we would discuss orogs, gnolls or other beast-men, even the Vos appear to have been described as goblins in some early elven records!
What is unambiguous however is that the Shadow mustered goblins in vast numbers, and that whatever troops he whelmed he twisted and turned to suit his whim - whether in body, mind or spirit, church records state clearly that none that willingly followed the Shadow endured his touch unchanged. The centuries since seem to make clear that goblins willingly flock to the banner of awnsheghlien and serve those of malign intent - so I remain of the view that his shadow lingers in them still. I accept the rights of nobles to permit goblins to serve as subjects - but I will ever remain vigilant.
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Diem speaks, (no one noticed him quietly slip in from the back)
"I would trust a goblin about as far as I could throw the lot of you... and for that matter I trust the lot of you about as far as I could toss a goblin!"
At this he smiles, hoping the others in the room picked up on his humor
"But in all seriousness, I agree with some of Maester Kaleimans conclusions though I don't share his enthusiasm in testing theories in this matter where human lives are concerned. I will summarize a few caveats."
"Woe to the realm who leaves goblins fester to their own devices, and he who willingly exposes his back to a goblin is a fool. On the flip-side of that coin of wisdom... Woe to he who would have every last goblin exterminated. Goblins have been around since before us, and they have outlasted some of the most violent and tyrannical regimes our history has ever seen, they are survivors and they will outlast you. Furthermore... What would you do if you knew that your neighbors were hellbent on slaughtering every last one of you? Man, woman, and child? Would you not fight with every ounce of courage? No surrender, give daggers to every child old enough to walk, fight to the last man and woman, and more importantly hold a grudge from now to forever and strive to do the same in kind? We can treat our barbaric brethren however we like but I dare say to let them know we wish to eradicate them in some form of final solution would just invite our own demise."
"As to Diemed's goblin problems... raiders are dealt with harshly. Anyone who breaks the law is dealt with harshly, goblins perhaps harsher. On the northern borders I've seen huts, maybe a small family. A few goblins equipped with plowshares toiling in the fields, or selling trinkets in the markets, or even attending a service at Haelyn's Festival... and I honestly don't give them a second thought... but swords in little green hands are an entirely different matter than plowshares."
"I have heard talk here of how the one thing goblins understand is power and the selfish desire to obtain it. That rings true. Those few civilized goblins in the north I feel are drawn to the power of wealth and a better life when they see the lifestyles of the Diemen citizens in the towns and cities, and small fiefs. However they seem to grow frustrated easily with work and toil. Laws make men equal. In a land of law men no longer gain power by physical strength but by intelligence and work ethic. Goblins are inherently handicapped in this regard. However they do understand the force of law when applied with ruthless efficiency. It is this small factor that I think keeps those who have decided to eek out a better life in the south working and toiling in order to reap their rewards."
"As for you Patriarch, you have no enviable task in dealing with some 20,000 head of goblins you have seemed to annex. Whatever you choose to do will either be a great success, or a great failure and only the historians of the future will tell. Maybe the best advice any one can offer you is to scour the lands and hire the best diviner your treasury can afford. You stand as an example to all of Anuire and I'm sure you will greatly impact how Anuire handles goblins in future policy... whether as an example of what to do, or what not to do is unfortunately yet to be determined."
He sits down, intending his closing statement to have some tongue in cheek humor... but notices the worried lines on the Patriarch's face all the same.
-
"In history all is reflected... That is true. But whoever writes the history is usually the victor. If my history is written unbiased, then I have gained victory indeed. Succes or failure."; Rashid remarks.