Twilightpeaks.net
TP.net => The Great Beyond (OOC) => : X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten) January 23, 2009, 12:28:25 PM
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When and where is this?
If I might suggest, this could make for one heck of a debate during the Sword and Crown in turn #62. If you could wait untill then, Kaven will gladly join the debate (northern Medoere has goblins living alongside humans too).
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*Bump*
Where, how and when is this done? Dispatches? Meeting, if so which court? Shouting from mountaintop to mountaintop ::)? Might be good to make that clear in topic. Actually, that might be a good thing to do in all topics to avoid timeline confusions?
(Something in the lines of what we are required to write in a mails subject: [#61][Dispatch]"Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms " - would that be an idea, to help avoid confusion?)
Just an FYI (if I remember correctly) that when turn #61 ends (Bjørn threatened with doing this soon (tm) I believe), no more communication until #62 starts (at which time there might be other stuff to concern us).
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....Kaspar, did you just directly compare the Patriarch of Elinie to an Awnshegh?
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Oh!
I completely missed this thread. How unfortunate.
Well, I was going to wait until the S&C, and then run it like a seminar, where all the lords would be there if they wanted to participate, and could request the floor to make their piece.
But I'm already discussing rather avidly with Andy and, now, probably, Kasper HA and IHH respectively) how Elinie is supposed to handle their goblins.
So I'd like to take the discussion now.
I am not exactly certain what the "Courts of Anuire" forum represents, other than a written media where the dispatches are open. Kind of like an open letter, distributed to figures of import to make certain its diseeminated across the empire.
Sort of what you'd do to posture your own opinions and maybe ridicule another regent in public.
Besides that, I hope to discuss this somewhat soberly. :)
Surely, there must be at least one temple of Haelyn that does not condemn goblins out of hand. I mean, the "good" part of his domains alone should make certain some sect is kind to all.
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The Courts of Anuire:
Here you can post any IC chatter you'd like to share with the community. Feel free to have your envoy to another court engage in conversation with some other dignitaries for example.
As I see it, it represents talk between several regents (or a regent and his Lieutenant, etc.) that you don't mind comes out in public. I know many games run by the practice that if it is public, chances are people have heard something about it. (I'm not sure that how RoE does it too, but that would seem a decent way of avoiding people having to forget stuff suddenly.)
You could most certainly do stuff as dispatches, the conclave of temples does it that way. It's just nice to know when we are, timeline wise, and where this takes effect, to avoid confusion later. If you actually do it in person, that would assume that you and whomsoever you talk to, are present somewhere at sometime to discuss matters face to face. I just wanted to be clear about that, before jumping in. Wouldn't want to end up in Elenie, all of a sudden, if I only thought I answered a dispatch. ;D
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Yea, Elinie can be such a bummer to end up in. ::)
Seriously though, thats exactly the same thing I was wondering, so for the discussion in questions, I'll be assuming its either messages being passed between officials, or so-called open letters.
Its public.
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I'd recommend that everybody who initiates one of those threads on the forum includes a descriptive blurb at the start setting out the scene. This should then be a suitably public event to warrant any subsequent discussion being public knowledge. Other characters can then join the discussion by describing who's there (regent or some henchman), knowing what the setup is.
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One of the great things about ROE is that there is no telecom provider as is often the case in other PBEMs, so any kind of interaction should be limited to physical contact of some sort and explained in that way, be that a letter or a meeting. Global UN security council type debates and meetings should be limited to the S&C.
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....Kaspar, did you just directly compare the Patriarch of Elinie to an Awnshegh?
Eh no - though I hinted being Lord of goblins may result in such a comparison - I think of how ill received the Duke of Elinies words will be many places
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....Kaspar, did you just directly compare the Patriarch of Elinie to an Awnshegh?
Eh no - though I hinted being Lord of goblins may result in such a comparison - I think of how ill received the Duke of Elinies words will be many places
Oh, but you did. And you also, quite blantantly, calls the rightful Duke of Elinie a liar. - Based on a text, that is open to public scrutiny and in which there is no lie present.
I am a little vexed, as there is only strongly negative ways to interpret such a thing.
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Replying to Andy's post in the Wraith thread:
Hehe, I see this post after I sent you Rashid's reply Andy.
And you confirm exactly the subtext that Rashid felt he was picking up... That if some deluded goblin shaman clings up a human or even another goblin, just for old times sake, the HA will be sweeping in with torches and burning the village to the ground.
Where did I say this? If the typical goblin goes raiding he will get stomped - that's all. Try to recall that the goblins were conquered only a few months ago - they still have millennia of seeing humans as prey to get over - and vice versa. So yes the traditional goblin method of the clan hungers, the clan raids is going to get a likely belligerent response, and it may as you say lead to excessive response from the less disciplined types - which most certainly does not include the Aegis. If the entire clan is following traditional goblins ways of raid, fight, recover, fight again they will see their warriors smashed by the Aegis, and be driven out - just as the Patriarch took the Sutren Hills by likely slaughtering its defenders and driving out those who refused to bow down, but the Aegis isn't going to just randomly start a slaughter for fun.
Please remember that goblins are not just humans with green skin - the link to Bjorn's description you provided should have made that clear. They are inherently evil - mercy is seen as weakness, laws as tools to protect the weak, neighbours as potential prey or rivals, etc, etc. Let us not mention the demon worship and so on which turns disdain and distrust into hatred and intolerance.
Reposting also the description Bjørn has made, emphasis mine:
Goblin-kind includes goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears. In fact, in Cerilia the term “goblin” can refer to all of these species, since all are part of goblin society. The only real differences between the three are in size and strength.
Personality
Goblins as not as simple as humans would have them. While often lacking in both education and social skills, they are not far behind humanity in other areas. Tradition and family honor are very important to goblins, and goblins that do not obey their families or engage in unseemly conduct, are dealt with in a swift and harsh manner.
Most goblins are motivated by self-interest. Humans find them to be greedy, untrustworthy and quick to resort to violence (often in an underhanded manner). Goblins who spend time away from goblin society, however, seem to grasp that other races and cultures have far different values and morality systems. Goblins generally have little difficulty adapting to changes.
Relations
Goblin realms engage in trade with nearby lands, hire out as mercenaries, and occasionally strike deals with bordering lands. However, goblins are short-tempered, avaricious, and violent; only a fool would trust a goblin realm very far.
Their societies are relatively stable through, and despite the sometimes-vicious infighting between various factions, full-scale civil war remains a rare occurrence. Indeed, the great goblin kingdom of Kal-Kalathor is one of the oldest realms in existence – only the elven courts and perhaps some of the dwarven kingdoms are older.
Alignment
Goblins can be of any alignment, but many are evil and lawful. Goblins respect ties of blood, and generally honor their superiors (be they village elders, priests or representatives of the local goblin king). However, goblins are also quick to take advantage of weakness (real of perceived), and concepts such as mercy and forgiveness are not accorded much worth in goblin society(see above on changes.). Goblins also honor their codes of law, but only in so far as they have to.
Classes
Goblins can be of any class, but certain classes are more prevalent then others. Fighters and warriors make up the bulk of the goblins encountered by other races. Goblins also frequently become rogues and scouts, or more rarely rangers. The huge or bugbear portion of the goblins races are less sophisticated than their smaller kin, and often become barbarians.
Spellcasting goblins are not common, but they are not unheard of either. Goblin adepts can be found in most goblin villages, where they perform duties as healers or diviners. True priests are relatively rare, and their power in goblin society is limited. Goblin scions sometimes become sorcerers.
Realms
Goblins hold extensive realms including Thurazor and Markazor, and the great khanate of Kal Kalathor. Their kingdoms are strong and stable enough to stand as nations with laws, borders, and courts.
Goblin society is loosely organized in tribes and clans, sometimes unified under a common overlord. Goblins kings tend to be weak figures, unable to control their contentious supporters; however, for time to time a particularly powerful, intelligent, and dangerous goblin may forge an army of conquest from his squabbling subjects.
Goblins live by herding livestock, mining, selling their services as mercenaries, and raiding. They are slaveholders, and the weak among them perform most had labor.
Religion
Kartathok is the lord and patron of goblin-kind in Cerilia, and he is the head of an entire pantheon of goblin gods. The goblins aren’t exactly cautious about concealing the secrets of their religion, but few outside observers have the patience or stomach to learn more than the surface details of goblin beliefs.
Goblins are not terribly devout, but they do make a great show of honoring their gods by word and action. Accordingly, goblin temples usually have a prominent position in local communities, but have little real power.
Goblins were quick to side with Azrai during the War against Shadow, but were equally quick in abandoning him after Deismaar. Some human scholars claim that the goblin gods existed before Deismaar, but were supplanted for a period by the worship of Azrai. Others claim that at least some of the goblin gods actually ascended as a result of Deismaar, much like the gods of the current Cerilian pantheon.
Names
All goblins have a given name and a family name, much like humans do. Family names are often derived from honored ancestors, places of living and such, but over time the names have become detached from their origins. Goblins also identify themselves with their village or tribe, and many have various nicknames.
Adventurers
Of all the non-human races in Cerilia (except dwarves and halflings), goblins are the most commonly encountered race in human lands. That is not to say that they are common, far from it, but any human realm bordering goblins lads is likely to have both a number of permanent goblin residents and larger transient goblin population. Goblins in human lands are almost universally distrusted and poorly treated.
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They are a cruel bunch, but not evil as a race.
They do not worship demons, unless you count their pantheon as demons, but then we are not OOC but IC.
They have laws, and follow them. They do not see laws as tools to protect the weak, the powerful uses them to get what they want and keep it.
Humans see neighbours as rivals too.
Almost the entire last segment of your text is not supported by Bjørns post.
Hunger only occurs if someone is not doing their job properly. If you have fully developed manors, only an event can/should provoke a famine. - If humans hunger, they go out to raid too you know.
Markazor was hostile towards Elinie, there were lawful reasons to invade. Sutren Hills is the only province in Markazor that was not completely decimated. I do not know the whole story, but its fairly clear that much of the infrastructure was left intact.
Haelyn's Aegis do not have mandate to enforce Haelyn's will in any way they see fit. Sure, they often get away with it and I think most will agree that they are definately a force for good... But as soon as their chief says "inherently evil", then you have to expect the Patriarch to keep armed paladins well out of harms way, and that goes both ways. If the paladins do not get into SH, they won't get themselves killed, and likewise, won't kill goblins.
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Indeed read his post - inherently evil: treacherous, greedy, untrustworthy, quick to violence..in an underhand manner, motivated by self interest, avaricious, violent, quick to take advantage of weakness,
Mercy and forgiveness are not accorded much worth, laws adhered to only when the goblins are forced to obey.
Very definite tendency to evil, and fair emphasis also on the chaos axis. Those features in turn lead to a poorly functioning economy and thus food supply (think Zimbabwe) - it is far easy to steal someone else's harvest than grow your own! Doing a governance job 'properly' means doing it selflessly - the center can always do better by simply draining the wealth from those about it rather than trying to painstakingly better everyone and share in the increased wealth.
So yes goblins are inherently evil - a many may be bullied into neutrality as long as the stick is clearly visible, a few may even embrace good, but by nature goblins are prone to evil.
Note the fact that those who adapt do so away from their own society - much of the evil thus being cultural in nature rather than genetic, when dealing with entire populations conversion will be far harder - it only takes a few rotten apples to infect the whole barrel and in a larger population some will inevitably cheat the rest resulting in a race to the bottom morality wise.
As for Haelyn's Aegis do not have mandate to enforce Haelyn's will in any way they see fit.
Well actually they do, that is precisely the point - each temple enforces their gods will as they see fit - and has the right to do so. Most churches will have many laws written specifically for them, probably have immunity from civil courts - the king may discipline them maybe but no lesser nobles, etc. Remember that the king is crowned by the temples - the precise balance of power will vary from realm to realm but there is always going to be some degree of sharing - both between church and state and between king and nobility. No one has absolute power in RoE (well, except Bjorn/Jon of course) and so has to tend to their followers and allies.
Sure, they often get away with it and I think most will agree that they are definately a force for good... But as soon as their chief says "inherently evil", then you have to expect the Patriarch to keep armed paladins well out of harms way, and that goes both ways. If the paladins do not get into SH, they won't get themselves killed, and likewise, won't kill goblins.
And by what right does the patriarch think do this? He holds his position based on tradition and law - if he denies others traditional and legal rights he undermines his own. All sorts of people have rights of justice (high, middle or low) and simply denying all of them the right to carry out those rights wipes out much of the mid-management of the Patriarch's own realm. Similarly if the Patriarch wants to keep everyone who dislikes goblins away from them he'll have to ban just about everyone who has lived near a goblin realm all their life - like all his sheriffs, who until the hills were conquered probably had defending the people against goblins high on their to do list.
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Obviously we agree, that the goblins tendency to evil is determined mostly by social factors.
We disagree when you say they lean more towards chaos than law. They have clearly defined hieracy inside their family units and hold their family high, to a degree that transcends the individual.
I wanted a discussion on what to do with the goblins, once they are accepted as part of a realm. I have heard what HA and IHH thinks about it, and that was overall negative. True? :)
You still make some claims as to conditions that you assume to be in effect, that I simply do not agree with. Apart from a situation where it actually becomes ingame relevant, I don't think I wish to push the point any further. ;)
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Partly culture, partly just innate. As to chaos it depends a lot on how you define it - if you see it as individual vs community then they lean towards choas due to their self-serving nature indicating chaos . If you go on strong laws vs weak then I'd say they probably go the other way - brutally enforced laws being used to contain their tendency towards being self serving and keep the society cohesive.
The issue is whether they will be accepted as part of the realm, or what that acceptance means - after they are it is fairly irrelevant.
If acceptance means they get various rights and duties, but are second class citizens mostly then that is one thing, if they get absolute equality to the human population then that is another.
Try to remember that many people are still fighting goblins on the border, as a result the religions will be pushing the 'stand strong, fight on' ethos to ensure that the goblins of the Spiderfell, etc don't 'infect' the human community with goblin ideals and that the border defences stay strong. A softer message about, or simply recognition of, the more civilised goblins within human realms undermines the former message - so is seen as an attack on anuirean culture rather than defense of the goblin culture.
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Partly culture, partly just innate. As to chaos it depends a lot on how you define it - if you see it as individual vs community then they lean towards choas due to their self-serving nature indicating chaos . If you go on strong laws vs weak then I'd say they probably go the other way - brutally enforced laws being used to contain their tendency towards being self serving and keep the society cohesive.
The issue is whether they will be accepted as part of the realm, or what that acceptance means - after they are it is fairly irrelevant.
If acceptance means they get various rights and duties, but are second class citizens mostly then that is one thing, if they get absolute equality to the human population then that is another.
Try to remember that many people are still fighting goblins on the border, as a result the religions will be pushing the 'stand strong, fight on' ethos to ensure that the goblins of the Spiderfell, etc don't 'infect' the human community with goblin ideals and that the border defences stay strong. A softer message about, or simply recognition of, the more civilised goblins within human realms undermines the former message - so is seen as an attack on anuirean culture rather than defense of the goblin culture.
Obviously not all religions, since there are goblins living peacefully in Medoere. Granted, that might still be a ploy and will be investigated, but even with that and the possibility of a Fell invasion in mind, the notion that some might wish for something else besides constant warring with humanity presents itself :)
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A few questions regarding the discussion, before Alamie joins, or not, this debate during the S&C:
1/ How open-minded do you plan to make your IC rulers? I mean Anuire is not the XXIst century of Earth, and even so, our societies are strained, somehow, by intra-humans relationships, cultures and so on. As for the Goblins, we are talking about the hereditary servants of Evil in Anuire since the dawn of times, humanoid beings, and bowing usually to their own evil-minded god.
2/ Would be interesting to see what the DMs might come up with internal events for humanoidophiles rulers? What would say your average Elinian when gathered in the Ducal host alongside Bob-Two-Toes from, formerly Markhazor, former cultist of Azrai or KK, now smiling with the benevolence of an LPA follower?
The debate might be IC confusing, OoC challenging, but remains interesting.
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I was going to respond to the thread, but since I hate the idea of the RoE having a regent 'tele-conference' -- I am going to hold off until the S & C. I totally haven't decided what to do with them anyways.
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A few questions regarding the discussion, before Alamie joins, or not, this debate during the S&C:
1/ How open-minded do you plan to make your IC rulers? I mean Anuire is not the XXIst century of Earth, and even so, our societies are strained, somehow, by intra-humans relationships, cultures and so on. As for the Goblins, we are talking about the hereditary servants of Evil in Anuire since the dawn of times, humanoid beings, and bowing usually to their own evil-minded god.
2/ Would be interesting to see what the DMs might come up with internal events for humanoidophiles rulers? What would say your average Elinian when gathered in the Ducal host alongside Bob-Two-Toes from, formerly Markhazor, former cultist of Azrai or KK, now smiling with the benevolence of an LPA follower?
The debate might be IC confusing, OoC challenging, but remains interesting.
OOC:
Very good points from Our good and wise neighbor.
I’m all new here but the latest pre- S&C IC talks are kind of strange. My role here is far away from religious matters but kindness, decency and believing in each individual’s uniqueness will need to be put into contexts of the time and place.
Would We in the west (in-game west) feel obliged to trust a known member of a group or race we as humans have a life-and-death struggle with? We know there are elfs, and then there are elfs, but that about it. And should We see the Orogs as potential allies until proven otherwise when we find them squatting in our razed parts? I do not think so. Then where is the limit? Could there be benevolent intelligent undead too?
Could the DM gently adjust the direction on matters of Goblins please. If there is a game-plot on making the matter a source of tension between human realms then just ignore my request and let loose havoc. Because havoc there will be. If goblins can be, in some cases, educated to be civilized, and mind you humans are not all the civil so the target is low, then it is the dammed duty of a good and just person to try before one just exterminate the lot. Saying that most are evil and will always be evil is not good cause for slaughter. And a village of goblins doing some human sacrifice surely warrants intervention, and prosecution of criminals, but not slaughter of the common goblin and his family.
If, that is, it is known that some goblins can be educated to become civilized. But that is, as pointed out, a modern rooted idea....
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Another letter is sent from Medoere.
"Lords and Ladies,
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I wonder how often a creature has sought to leave it's past behind it and seek a better way of life, only to be trampled to death by a mob, fearful of that which they do not know. Bear that in mind, before you throw the killing stone."
- Kaven Enlien, Baron of Medoere
OOC;
Take heed! Take Heed! Lest You All be trampled by the Goblin Paladin Donkey Charge (most are a bit small for horses) as They bring the wrath of the righteous upon the self serving hypocritical clergy....
Redeem now! the goblin paladins are massing in their hamlets!...
Great idea for the comic-strip section btw…
(http://www.fantasygallery.net/zug/Half_Orc_Paladin.jpg)
www.fantasygallery.net/zug/Half_Orc_Paladin.jpg
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....Would We in the west (in-game west) feel obliged to trust a known member of a group or race we as humans have a life-and-death struggle with? We know there are elfs, and then there are elfs, but that about it. And should We see the Orogs as potential allies until proven otherwise when we find them squatting in our razed parts? I do not think so. Then where is the limit? Could there be benevolent intelligent undead too?...
Intelligent? Well seeing as the battle against the Eyeless One's hordes was only won by the timely intervention of the undead King Raenech and his hordes of moaning, shrieking what-not's and seeing as Undead King Raenech had quite a few things to say to the dumbfound humans afterwards, I guess that answers your question :D
Look at the passage between year 1531-32 (http://roe.twilightpeaks.net/subpage5.html)
or From the old boards... the horses mouth, so to speak (http://ruinsofempire.twilightpeaks.net/forums/index.php?topic=578.0) ;)
Benevolent? Not sure... He did save quite a few that day?
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Benevolent? Not a chance. His intervention was welcome, but his intentions do not bode well for the future. Jaison Raenech was an ambitious and ruthless man in life, even after his conversion. From what little he said in his appearance there, I don't think death has done much to warm him. :(
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Look at the passage between year 1531-32 (http://roe.twilightpeaks.net/subpage5.html)
or From the old boards... the horses mouth, so to speak (http://ruinsofempire.twilightpeaks.net/forums/index.php?topic=578.0) ;)
Benevolent? Not sure... He did save quite a few that day?
OOC:
The myths of old really capture the minds of the commons do they not? Well One should take heed of these myths; learn from them, and of them, to better the future, both for common and noble alike.
Thanks, I have yet to read the entire old forum. Just trying to mingle into the flock in ROE II, and doing so with my PC's head still attached to her body so to speak...
I’ll keep low a while yet, at least in IC…
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My thought is threefold 1) what do the gods think, 2) what does the leadership of the Aegis think, 3) what does the common man think.
1. Only Bjorn can say whether goblins are accepted as priests/worshipers by the human gods. If not then the churches are very unlikely to be well disposed to them, if they are - or some divine message of a change comes down, then that again makes a huge difference - missionaries replace paladins.
2. Herein lies politics. As leader of a church with a remit of militant defense, the concern is about mixed messages. How can Robhan say 'be vigilant and guard your homes against raiders' when simultaneously saying 'goblins are perfectly normal people, you are safe with them as neighbours'? how can he say 'Ghieste is threatened by goblins of the Spiderfell, let us send our children to fight and die defending the people' while also saying 'goblins are no better or worse than Anuireans'? While unfortunate for 'the few' goblins who are good, or just want to avoid trouble, the need to defend the children of the Andu against the goblin realms forces him to take a fairly stern stance.
A rather unfortunate catch-22, goblins cannot prove that they are good, skilled, virtuous etc unless the Anuireans allow them to do so as a member of society. The Anuireans will not welcome them as members until they prove themselves good, virtuous, etc...
3. a modified extract from some fluff I sent poor Niels (he of the worn off ears) on how I perceive race relations are likely to go...
Bigotry - right and wrong
Think about the issues between white (anuirean) and black (goblin) in America today. Now imagine that everything that the worst rednecks of 50 years ago said was true, they are treacherous, they are lazy, they steal unless constantly watched, they breed incessantly, they take the jobs of honest poor men, they are insolent, they are crude, they eat people (not sure if this one is RoE canon or not), they worship false gods.
Now say that instead of 2-3 centuries of slavery, you have 20-30 centuries of wars and raids - goblins are not just inferior, they are dangerous, every child is told to do as they are told or the goblins will carry them away, every war hero fought/died bravely against the villainous goblins, every heroic play has its goblin villain, every family has a list going back generations of dead heroes to avenge. Even now, centuries after abolition the hatred is a vivid memory in some places. With goblins it is ten times worse and will last well beyond human lifetimes.
Now add economics and politics. The goblins are poor, they have zero investment capital (it is with the churches/nobility mostly), that means that the boss in a business is inevitably a human, the learned are always human, those from the old school with all the plum government posts are always human... those prejudices just get stronger as the years go by and the goblins sense of victimhood rightly grows - why work when the humans get the profit, why serve when there is no chance to rule? The law is a weapon used to keep us down...
If goblins are given rank and station, what will the nobility say when a goblin accuses a noble maiden of a crime and the judge is a goblin? Green hands on white thighs, goblins look to their own, they want revenge, you can't trust them with one of us...
So even if a ruler says 'I hath decreed, from this moment forth peace shall rein', the hate and prejudice will remain and not simply evaporate. Frankly, relations are going to be godawful. The goblins will not be accepted (aside from a few 'pets' who 'prove' the others are just lazy and vicious) for centuries - and will not accept the humans either. Hatred will be rife, ancient feuds common.
What does the regent do when local law clashes - the goblin has a legal right to take the chicken, it was running in the field and is thus is his in goblin law, the human has a right to the chicken, it was on his farm/he bought it - the law of the king generally doesn't go down to that sort of level. At peasant concern level it is common-law for justice handed out generally by the mob, except the law isn't common to both parties. If the goblins are equal then so surely is their culture - and the ideals of their culture (might makes right, look after #1, you have what you can take and hold) are fundamentally opposed to the ideals human culture (reciprocal debts, be honest, etc) - are the goblins just to be told 'everything you say and do is wrong, learn from your betters now?'
Expect constant beatings, 'murders', 'raids', 'reprisals', etc, etc - from both sides. Expect corrupt officials turning a blind eye or actively helping out thugs, expect goblins (rightly) complaining that their complaints are ignored and (wrongly) complaining that they are being discriminated against (the human craftsman will probably be better and certainly fit in better with the workforce). Expect naive young folk to seek missionary duty to 'help the goblins' to be murdered, raped, eaten, etc to huge uproar amongst the great and good - something must be done! Expect courts to rule that a goblins word in evidence is less persuasive than a human's, that any human killing a goblin is defending themselves - and any goblin killing a human is committing murder and so on down the ugly list of hate and prejudice.
Robhan can order his domain otherwise and push the 'law is colourblind' angle, and as law is a religious obligation to his people he may even have some success, but most of the Aegis will consider Robhan a fool for ignoring the ‘clear’ guilt born and bred to goblins. Think the deep south and local law approach to the Klan - the people attracted to the legal posts were precisely the people who formed and led the Klan, good family men who wanted their culture and community to be strong and endure and their families to be safe from the brutes...
Goblins, hill-kittens of the land… We need a PETA in the game to brush up the goblins image, so far Neils seems to have volunteered...
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HA has no holdings in Sutren Hills.
You are implying that a regents holdings do whatever they want, even against direct orders to the opposite.
The population is listed as "Goblin". There is currently no mass effort to put more humans than absolutely neccessary in there. Thus, no innocent settlers to be offended.
Those who go, are well brifed on what thye will be facing. Obviously, people who really hate or fear goblins are not going to take posts there. (While its not always voluntary, there are degrees of freedom of choice for people working there).
But, basically, I don't think I should justify, in excessive detail, how Rashid is going to try and handle it. So to a large degree I'm gonna have to let most of the negative expressions stand unopposed.
But indeed, it'll be interesting times. I ask only that all who read these pages remember, that its far from certain that any little problem even reaches the ears of the zealously inspired.
I'll just remind you all, that we are not talking about hill-kittens as being the image Rashid tries to give them. What the tone is, is that they are going to live by the rules of greater Anuire. (this still pisses off some people, but hey.)
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You are implying that a regents holdings do whatever they want, even against direct orders to the opposite.
Be careful. Holdings are absolutely NOT a monolithic representation of the will of the regent. Do not expect that they always do exactly what you want, when you want it, and without any complaint.
I will point out. RiD lost control of his realm in a coup -- prepetrated effectively by his own holdings (and very little if any outside/foreign influences to help).
I wouldn't for a moment assume that RiD's enlightened sentiments towards the goblins is universal for his domain (in fact, I garuntee that this view is the minority).
The population is listed as "Goblin". There is currently no mass effort to put more humans than absolutely neccessary in there. Thus, no innocent settlers to be offended.
Nope. Immigration & Emigration is occuring naturally with or without the direct intervention of the ruler. You can easily assume that humans are coming to Sutren Hills.
Those who go, are well brifed on what thye will be facing. Obviously, people who really hate or fear goblins are not going to take posts there. (While its not always voluntary, there are degrees of freedom of choice for people working there).
Why do you think that? People move for numerous reasons -- and hope for a better future--prompts many to go through very dangerous situations and make very rash decisions.
But, basically, I don't think I should justify, in excessive detail, how Rashid is going to try and handle it. So to a large degree I'm gonna have to let most of the negative expressions stand unopposed.
I think guaging the reaction from PCs that you might want to take some advisor actions and/or espionage to determine how your domain actually feels about it. But then again, since I principally have the same issue (with Undead no leass), I totally understand your sentiments.
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HA has no holdings in Sutren Hills.
Actually the P&H shows a L0 holding - which I can only assume is purely human since I don't know if the gods accept goblin worshipers.
You are implying that a regents holdings do whatever they want, even against direct orders to the opposite.
No - I am stating the exact opposite. So even if Robhan orders his people to accept the goblins, they are quite likely to refuse, and even directly undermine any such attempts.
The population is listed as "Goblin". There is currently no mass effort to put more humans than absolutely neccessary in there. Thus, no innocent settlers to be offended.
In addition to Alan's point, I note that a) province borders are not walled - crossings will be routine for hunters, trappers, herdsmen, etc, etc. and b) people do look at their neighbours - and react strongly to things they fear, riches they perceive would be better in their hands, etc. I would expect the court as well to take note of anything occuring in any province of a domain - and some of them could be offended if 'their' constituents were losing out on the regent's attention and bounty.
Those who go, are well brifed on what thye will be facing. Obviously, people who really hate or fear goblins are not going to take posts there. (While its not always voluntary, there are degrees of freedom of choice for people working there).
But, basically, I don't think I should justify, in excessive detail, how Rashid is going to try and handle it. So to a large degree I'm gonna have to let most of the negative expressions stand unopposed.
Your realm, your call - but expect anything you do publicly to impact on how people see you - and generally be completely misinterpreted (why somehow people thought Robhan was declaring a theocracy when he tried to pour oil on troubled waters during the civil war with a brief enforced peace!)
But indeed, it'll be interesting times. I ask only that all who read these pages remember, that its far from certain that any little problem even reaches the ears of the zealously inspired.
Oh quite true - but you can't exactly hide 20-30,000 goblins so it is one of the less subtle aspects of your realm. Hide an affair with a servant from the public, a routine matter, brief diplomats in secret - easy. Hide a thousand strong army of goblin berserkers on raging warpigs - a little harder.
I'll just remind you all, that we are not talking about hill-kittens as being the image Rashid tries to give them. What the tone is, is that they are going to live by the rules of greater Anuire. (this still pisses off some people, but hey.)
Everything annoys someone, somethings annoy everyone. Rashid has made his choice and issued his PR, if anybody in or out of his realm wants to take offence that's their choice. If they want to show that they are offended, well, that's also their choice and no doubt they will embrace the consequences - no matter how drunk they were at the time which is generally how minor troubles in this vein this start.
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If any goblins do worship the HA (and I'm not saying there are any) then they would do so against the wishes of the church - believe me, the HA might be a Good temple, but it also has ages long relations with goblins, and there can never ever be any peace between them. Actually, one of the HA's holy tasks is killing such filth, so that Anuire does not have to suffer their depredations.
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If any goblins do worship the HA (and I'm not saying there are any) then they would do so against the wishes of the church - believe me, the HA might be a Good temple, but it also has ages long relations with goblins, and there can never ever be any peace between them. Actually, one of the HA's holy tasks is killing such filth, so that Anuire does not have to suffer their depredations.
Thanks for clearing that up :-)
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If any goblins do worship the HA (and I'm not saying there are any) then they would do so against the wishes of the church - believe me, the HA might be a Good temple, but it also has ages long relations with goblins, and there can never ever be any peace between them. Actually, one of the HA's holy tasks is killing such filth, so that Anuire does not have to suffer their depredations.
What about IHH? It is not many years ago the northern parts of Roesone was raided by goblins and then held for a year by the same goblins and since IHH is state faith in Roesone its unlikely goblins receive positive treatment.
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If any goblins do worship the HA (and I'm not saying there are any) then they would do so against the wishes of the church - believe me, the HA might be a Good temple, but it also has ages long relations with goblins, and there can never ever be any peace between them. Actually, one of the HA's holy tasks is killing such filth, so that Anuire does not have to suffer their depredations.
What about IHH? It is not many years ago the northern parts of Roesone was raided by goblins and then held for a year by the same goblins and since IHH is state faith in Roesone its unlikely goblins receive positive treatment.
Goblins have been a problem around the Spiderfell for thousands of years, and after the IHH became a factor in Roesone they have had their dealings with them as there. In older days the goblins also raided from the Grey Hills, with bellam being one of their last holdfasts there (but they were cleared out centuries ago). So the IHH has reason enough to hate goblins, but nevertheless not nearly to the extent the HA has.
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Meaning IHH do not advocate for actual genocide of goblins as HA seems to do?
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Only the killing of goblins that constitute a threat - so any goblin raider found in Roesone should be killed, but beyond that the IHH doesn't hold seremons condemning the goblins as the spawn of darkness.
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Can I assume that goblins that raid but escape back to their lair is also to be killed?
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Definitely - too bad they hide in the Spiderfell ;D
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Can I assume that goblins that raid but escape back to their lair is also to be killed?
I'm curious how you would identify one goblin raider in a group of 10. Does he have war-paint or a stamp in his passport saying "Roesone bordercontrol"? :D
I mean, it's not like those who didn't go all run around in one of these (http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t51/Khirildith/ist2_313762-adult-size-white-t-shir.jpg)... ::)
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Lol.
Thats why Spiderfell has to be subdued and controlled by the forces of good.
Who volunteer for doing the Lords work and kick goblin arse in the Fell?
By Lord I mean the All Farther, Divine Haelyn
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If any goblins do worship the HA (and I'm not saying there are any) then they would do so against the wishes of the church - believe me, the HA might be a Good temple, but it also has ages long relations with goblins, and there can never ever be any peace between them. Actually, one of the HA's holy tasks is killing such filth, so that Anuire does not have to suffer their depredations.
oookaay, well so much for being diplomatic... Rashid, those warpigs have to go!
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Meaning IHH do not advocate for actual genocide of goblins as HA seems to do?
Actually neither I nor my C's have been arguing this - just that people recognise the 'danger' side of their hill-kittens. Unfortunately while I've bent over backwards to make my C's compromise without losing sight of the core 'not just nice people raised bad' point the same is not true of others - which in turn makes it harder for Robhan to compromise later.
Some of the regent's letters beg the question 'what's in it for you?' - the answer is rarely pretty. Is Robhan the only one with a few thousand followers at his back looking for a sign that a new leader is required? Man, I've seen some of Robbie's merrie twoopers and believe me you're all better off with him around and grouchy than replaced by a real militant who sees the need for the fires of truth in such dark times! Excessive tolerance breeds bigotry amongst the uneducated and superstitious...
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OOC: Remember that goblins might also be reading the missives in the IC thread... It'd be a really bad move for a regent of goblins to IC, in public, say that goblins are to be kept in a state of servitude to humans.
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No they wont read it but another regent might choose to tell them
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Some of the regent's letters beg the question 'what's in it for you?' - the answer is rarely pretty.
Correct and my guess is Niels like to be able to aquire cheap goblin troops since his army stays in Osoerde with their general not doing the bidding of Eiliens ruler.
Niels if you read this realize that you having goblins in your army can get real ugly PR wise and result in a couple of wars against you
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Well Kasper, goblin armies probably start out fairly ugly from a human perspective - but then look at my guys, a week in the field wearing plate steel - I wouldn't want to be downwind of them, so whose to talk?
As for wars, it will probably get very pragmatic unless Rashid really gets up someone's nose - the only people likely to be bothered are neighbours, Mhoried certainly has better things to do, Coeranys is on the border with the dwarves and chimereon so focused elsewhere, the ghoeres are to small to start something... as long as Rashid doesn't get too carried away with trying to change the world out of sight will be out of mind - the bloodtheft issue is actually more dangerous for Rashid since it poses a direct personal threat to every scion, which means the cream of the nobility.
On the plus side for Rashid, it is likely that the goblins elsewhere in Morcosoer will swiftly realise that they have a better chance in the Sutren Hills than anywhere else - so Robhan gets to deal with the goblins who stay (the thick ones) or aren't let in (the violent ones) and Rashid gets the smart ones immigrating to work his mines, everyone is happy...
On goblins reading the forums, most posts are direct regent:regent missives, a few might get intercepted but not many - and few interceptors would be interested in rabble rousing amongst goblins. The journal is more open but probably still read only by the intelligentsia (which is why the field marshal is replying not Robhan).
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OOC:
Wait, what? - Rashid has not spoken pro-bloodtheft at any point.
He wanted to start a debate on the issue, but the only ones answering were the fanatic religious wings...
Of course, said wings try to suppress even discussing the topic, but still. To go hunting for blood, as the explicit purpose, is anathema to Rashid and his ethics.
On goblins intercepting the messages, since all realms have access to the journal, it means quite a number of copies exist, dramatically increasing the chance of interception.
It doesn't matter much for the fanatics, since their view is already well known by goblins. I wouldn't be surprised if most goblins just turn and run if they see a HA banner over a group of approaching riders.
But anyone wishing eny kinds of diplomatic actions with goblins should probably keep a neutral profile. But here again, the fanatics try to pressure a clear policy that reflects their own beliefs.
The next step, would be if the fanatics put out a decree that everyone had to make their official opinion known or suffer some consequence. (Hell, Kasper threatens war based on a few letters, not to mention he has gone out of his way to ingame insult Rashid.)
Its a very loose foundation for a war to be waged on.
The "whats in it for you" is actually fairly simple, and should be perceptible for anyone who knows Rashid. He is a LN Paladin. If an otherwise innocent, swears fealty, and does nothing to betray that, then it is his actual duty to protect them. - It doesn't have to be the only reason, but it truly is the primary one.
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OOC:
Wait, what? - Rashid has not spoken pro-bloodtheft at any point.
He wanted to start a debate on the issue, but the only ones answering were the fanatic religious wings...
Of course, said wings try to suppress even discussing the topic, but still. To go hunting for blood, as the explicit purpose, is anathema to Rashid and his ethics.
On goblins intercepting the messages, since all realms have access to the journal, it means quite a number of copies exist, dramatically increasing the chance of interception.
It doesn't matter much for the fanatics, since their view is already well known by goblins. I wouldn't be surprised if most goblins just turn and run if they see a HA banner over a group of approaching riders.
But anyone wishing eny kinds of diplomatic actions with goblins should probably keep a neutral profile. But here again, the fanatics try to pressure a clear policy that reflects their own beliefs.
The next step, would be if the fanatics put out a decree that everyone had to make their official opinion known or suffer some consequence. (Hell, Kasper threatens war based on a few letters, not to mention he has gone out of his way to ingame insult Rashid.)
Its a very loose foundation for a war to be waged on.
The "whats in it for you" is actually fairly simple, and should be perceptible for anyone who knows Rashid. He is a LN Paladin. If an otherwise innocent, swears fealty, and does nothing to betray that, then it is his actual duty to protect them. - It doesn't have to be the only reason, but it truly is the primary one.
Doesn't this assume that the laws equally apply to goblinoids. I don't think that it is neccessarily the case -- afterall, I would point out that the Daouta don't even marry outside their own race, why would they neccessarily offer rights to to goblinoids?
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The next step, would be if the fanatics put out a decree that everyone had to make their official opinion known or suffer some consequence. (Hell, Kasper threatens war based on a few letters, not to mention he has gone out of his way to ingame insult Rashid.)
Its a very loose foundation for a war to be waged on.
OOC: Niels I have not threaten to wage war - I have said your attitude I translate into a wish of having cheap goblins in your army which may mean war and mind you not particularly waged by IHH.
Please read again:
Niels if you read this realize that you having goblins in your army can get real ugly PR wise and result in a couple of wars against you
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That is your ooc comments Kasper, I believe Niels is refering to your IC letters.
As far as IHH are concerned goblin raiders will regardless of whatever arguments the good Baron kaven or the leader of Elinie come up with be killed on sight, relentlessly pursued and their lair burned out.
If the leader of Elinie tries to convince us otherwise he either has lost all sense or is in league with evil. Pretending his agenda is only good he fail to listen to any arguments, quote false and lapse to sarcasm. If he wishes to be known as the Goblin Lord it’s his choice but I ask him not to poison the mind of others.
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Needless to say the leader of Elinie, also known as the Goblin Lord, will be held responsible for atrocities committed by goblins under his protection.
Wallac Isilviere
Pontiff Conclave of Temples
High Prefect IHH
One could read a threat or two between the lines of the IC communication. As much is unsaid, as is said, and if you first state that Goblins will be hunted down and their lair burned and in the same letter go on to call the Rashid for "Goblin Lord" and in league with evil, malicious minds could easily percieve that as a threat that even if Rashid swore the goblins under his protection, IHH will kill them... that would be an act of war. Though Kaven is somewhat familiar with Wallac and the way he reacts, by now, Thorsten firstly read this as a slap with a proverbial gauntlet. The next best thing to stating "Oh yeah? You and me, outside, right now!" :D
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I actually do not know the circumstances behind Elinie's invasion of Sutren Hills. - But since the province is level 3, I have to assume some degree of acceptace of the goblins as citizens is what both Elinie, LPA and PETG was thinking.
Thats what I'm going with anyway.
Also, its the al-Rasshad family that is pure strain Khinasi. The Daouta's does not have a code enforcing purity, but they are probably close to pure anyway.
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I actually do not know the circumstances behind Elinie's invasion of Sutren Hills. - But since the province is level 3, I have to assume some degree of acceptace of the goblins as citizens is what both Elinie, LPA and PETG was thinking.
Goblins like raiding into Elinie. Assan raided back. Actually he did a little more than that, and nearly got Gerad and his army wiped out as a result (not to mention that the Mhor was killed while returning from helping Elinie vs. the goblins). In the end, however, Assan managed to gain control over Sutren Hills - but made no attempt to wipe out the goblins.
Note: There ARE humans living in the province, but the greater majority of the population is made up of goblins.
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OOC:
Wait, what? - Rashid has not spoken pro-bloodtheft at any point.
He wanted to start a debate on the issue, but the only ones answering were the fanatic religious wings...
I figured he was trying to provoke a debate which is why I strived to keep it friendly and had Loeren be tutorial rather than adversarial - however the un-named sage wound up sounding very pro-bloodtheft - one does not start a debate on murder from a 'lets take a neutral view on whether it is morally right or wrong perspective' and avoid being treated as pro-murder - the 'norm' is just so far to one side that the 'neutral' view is actually very biased. As for fanatic side - bloodtheft directly attacks the nobility and the worship of gods as greater beings, and encapsulates the corruption of the awnsheghlien (everyone's favourite nightmare) - expect even the moderates to be very opposed to it.
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Odd it is then, that when bloodtheft is so wicked, that it takes place at all...perhaps the lure of divine power is stronger than the morality of even Anuirean nobility? :o
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I figured he was trying to provoke a debate which is why I strived to keep it friendly and had Loeren be tutorial rather than adversarial - however the un-named sage wound up sounding very pro-bloodtheft - one does not start a debate on murder from a 'lets take a neutral view on whether it is morally right or wrong perspective' and avoid being treated as pro-murder - the 'norm' is just so far to one side that the 'neutral' view is actually very biased. As for fanatic side - bloodtheft directly attacks the nobility and the worship of gods as greater beings, and encapsulates the corruption of the awnsheghlien (everyone's favourite nightmare) - expect even the moderates to be very opposed to it.
Same goes for the Goblin equal rights movement also started by Elinie - the norm is so far to one side that the pro-goblin view is very biased. It should come as no surprise one cannot start a "neutral" debate on an issue like this
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Odd it is then, that when bloodtheft is so wicked, that it takes place at all...perhaps the lure of divine power is stronger than the morality of even Anuirean nobility? :o
The lure of the dark side is strong....
But seriously, considering what goes on in our "real" world over money and power (oil, drugs, coups...) I'd wager that more than half our Earth population would engage in bloodtheft, provided they could get away with it. And who will stop a nobleman from getting what he wants anyway, especially if he can call the guy he took the blood from a "bad guy" or "villain"
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Odd it is then, that when bloodtheft is so wicked, that it takes place at all...perhaps the lure of divine power is stronger than the morality of even Anuirean nobility? :o
The average 13-year-old girl is stronger than the morality of most Anuirean nobility. "Them as takes, gets", after all. Even our pious templar Baron Roesone is simply the descendant of the region's most successful brigand.
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there's 'get away with' and 'advocate in public' - for example a lot of the nobility will be involved in trade up to their eyeballs with hundreds of money making schemes - but how many will admit to it?
Bloodtheft is about as extreme an example as you can get of embedded hypocrisy. There aren't that many scions in Anuire, and almost all of them will be influential people of one sort or another, the person who openly admits that they see each scions as prey is immediately the enemy of all of them - even if the target might personally be quite happy to 'accidentally' usurp the attackers bloodline 'in self defence'. One should always remember the core of the noble understanding of justice 'if no one saw, or no one cares who it happened too, it didn't happen...'
You also get the god angle, which I had Loeren allude to - bloodlines are likely to have some religious import given their origin, are quite possibly the underlying basis for recognition of true nobility, etc, etc - if bloodline is a tradeable commodity then its deific value is undermined.
With goblins a lot comes down to whether goblins are just ugly people with green skin, elves are just skinny people with pointy ears and dwarves are short guys with excessive facial hair - or whether they are distinct species with different biochemistry, physiology, etc. I obviously lean strongly towards the latter and presume neurochemical differences underlying the observed social differences in line with, for example, different dog subspecies where different breeds have strong tendencies to different psychologies.
The bigotry side then gets involved - bigotry requires 1) appreciable difference between social groups b) interaction and c) competition to really take off. Here goblins lose out by being very distinct physically (and in my view socially), having a history of constant negative interaction, and competing for just about every resource. While there is plenty of reason for issues as a result, they is also scope for differentiation between the goblin types - the goblins of Medoere may for example be seen very different to their forest brethren and seen as a distinct species 'our valley greyuns ain't goblins you fool! You see paint on their face or an axe in their hand? Peaceful lot they are, lived in the valley for generations and never bothered a soul!' - bigotry can work many ways.
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Seems to me that ICly Elinie might be in for riding down a bumpy road :D
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The average 13-year-old girl is stronger than the morality of most Anuirean nobility. "Them as takes, gets", after all. Even our pious templar Baron Roesone is simply the descendant of the region's most successful brigand.
ehm.... so is his not-so-pious former vassal whose grandmother is Roesone hehe
But to get back to the topic at hand, as much as it might seem that IHH overreacted, that is alas what fanatics are supposed to do. Quite frankly, when I read about some stuff that the Pope did recently (rehabilitation of the lefebvre bishops for example) and knowing what they used to do in the middle ages (just read some crusader propaganda) the anti-goblin views of the IHH aren't even that strong.
Calling for outright war against any goblin sympathizers would be the expected reaction of even a moderate clerical leader, let alone a fanatic. However, there is always a question of pragmatism. Calling for the execution of a peasant harboring goblins is one thing, insulting a major noble house (royalty in Anuirean terms) might have repercussions that no one wants. Wars were, after all, fought over "trivial" matters of honor.
And the whole "goblin problem" in Elinie can be just a convenient casus belli for whatever neighbor would like to interfere in the internal affairs of the duchy. I doubt that anyone more than 50 miles away from Elinie would even care about their goblins but Osoerde or Mhoried might consider it a good excuse to annex a few provinces in the name of "justice and goodness" :)
A historical illustration. The ottoman Turks were the "goblins" of early modern Europe and yet, France, a catholic country, allied with the "infidels and devilspawn" against Austria that was considered by both to be the greater threat than a pure religious difference separating Paris and Istanbul. No French king was excommunicated because of this ;)
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Actually from OOC perspective I do not think IHH started insulting. But when pointing out our esteemed leader, Wallac Isilviere, got quoted wrongly, the reply used quite a lot of sarcasm.
So I tried to think out how would a relatively moderate cleric (to RoE world perspective that is) react to having pre-judies questioned (goblin potential good), quoted wrong and then met with sarcasm. I think a little more fire and brim had been in place for my role but being new to game I decided to hold back a little.
It came as quite a surprise to me so few reacted against goblin perceived as potential good citizens. Where is the good old OIT ;)
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The OIT did take one opportunity to put their point of view across actually, along the lines of the colour of goblin skin being an outward sign of the evil within and those that thought otherwise being ready to send the good folk of Anuire to be slaughtered by those cruel creatures. Who could think otherwise??
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It came as quite a surprise to me so few reacted against goblin perceived as potential good citizens. Where is the good old OIT ;)
Personally, I refrain from "galaxy wide" debates that I got sort of fed up with in other PBEMs so I choose not to participate in such things unless my regent is physically present. It sort of messes up my suspension of disbelief when our regents are engaging in a dispute with people across the continent. In other PBEMs the only result were enmities that had little to no actual rationale, like Medoere meddling in a Dhoesone/Stjordvik issue or Taeghas telling Coeranys how to handle this or that which isn't all that realistic and tends to send armies on ludicrous wars a gazillion miles away :)
It also makes the S&C and other similar gatherings that much more special.
Now, if somone asks Arvour personally what he thinks on the goblin issue he might be inclined to share his thoughts, but not via a letter sent out to "everyone in Anuire"
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Robert that is a good point. I may even go as far as to take it as an advice and follow it myself 8)
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Personally, I refrain from "galaxy wide" debates that I got sort of fed up with in other PBEMs so I choose not to participate in such things unless my regent is physically present. It sort of messes up my suspension of disbelief when our regents are engaging in a dispute with people across the continent. In other PBEMs the only result were enmities that had little to no actual rationale, like Medoere meddling in a Dhoesone/Stjordvik issue or Taeghas telling Coeranys how to handle this or that which isn't all that realistic and tends to send armies on ludicrous wars a gazillion miles away :)
It also makes the S&C and other similar gatherings that much more special.
Now, if somone asks Arvour personally what he thinks on the goblin issue he might be inclined to share his thoughts, but not via a letter sent out to "everyone in Anuire"
Thanks Robert, you sum up exactly what I dislike about global chat in PBeMs. In a previous game I tried to participate, the whole game decended into an acrimonious debate with people leaving the game before turn 1 had even started.
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It can however be an awfully quiet game if there is no such forum - a ruler may well interact with half a dozen domains in their realm or nearby, a wizard regent otoh may literally have no one to talk to other than their regent and maybe one or two other wizards - and the lack of interaction then drives minor regents from the game. For some players the forum is the only real interaction they get...
That said, odd friendships and enmities are surely one of the joys of playing? NPC's being active in RoE (unlike, sadly, in so many other games) freakish wars and alliances should be tempered - king A may like queen B, but if he tries to send 20 regiments across the continent to aid her against King C his people are likely to ask what the heck he's doing leaving them defenceless to aid a realm they've never heard of... Even sending a few GB could result in some sign of disapproval...
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To be honest, both my original posts were with intent to discuss. :)
However, I had no idea to what degree it would spill over into ingame animousity.
I can understand why people prefer to avoid this in a pbem, and will definately refrain from such loaded debates in the future, as regent at least.
Because I do feel we should be able to discuss things here in the forums, without the stake of our realms in the balance, or people feeling they have to object to the strange idea of mass communication.
Hmm... What if the Courts of Anuire were displaced to Anuire City, and all regents can send a diplomat there. The grouchy old fools would run around having meetings, holding personal grudges and make the life of the other diplomats hell.
They'd be mostly forgotten and ignored by their realms, sending their reports back home to arrive months later.
It'd be relatively harmless, but we'd all be able to post whatever and assume that we can herd all the other diplomats into a big domed room and take turns fighting to hold the speakers floor. Roman senate style. Except the topics would most of the time be which realm holds the kitchen duty this month.
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To be honest, both my original posts were with intent to discuss. :)
However, I had no idea to what degree it would spill over into ingame animousity.
I can understand why people prefer to avoid this in a pbem, and will definately refrain from such loaded debates in the future, as regent at least.
Because I do feel we should be able to discuss things here in the forums, without the stake of our realms in the balance, or people feeling they have to object to the strange idea of mass communication.
Hmm... What if the Courts of Anuire were displaced to Anuire City, and all regents can send a diplomat there. The grouchy old fools would run around having meetings, holding personal grudges and make the life of the other diplomats hell.
They'd be mostly forgotten and ignored by their realms, sending their reports back home to arrive months later.
It'd be relatively harmless, but we'd all be able to post whatever and assume that we can herd all the other diplomats into a big domed room and take turns fighting to hold the speakers floor. Roman senate style. Except the topics would most of the time be which realm holds the kitchen duty this month.
No worries, it's good to get these things defined. It's really a question of what the RoE style of gaming is. I've participated in a couple of different games wherein different versions was used.
It's been tried at least once to create a common meeting ground for the nobles of Anuire, but most weren't really interested in expanding on the social event of the S&C. Furthermore it is generally believed that to centre anything further in Anuire City would be to play into the hands of Avan - and after Boer declared himself King, it kind of became a moot point. Everyone has been quite focused on the survival of their realms and not the niceties of diplomacy.
The Anuire of RoE is torn to shreds by repeated conflict and war.
But by all means, if you think it a good idea - put it forward at the S&C.
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It can however be an awfully quiet game if there is no such forum - a ruler may well interact with half a dozen domains in their realm or nearby, a wizard regent otoh may literally have no one to talk to other than their regent and maybe one or two other wizards - and the lack of interaction then drives minor regents from the game. For some players the forum is the only real interaction they get...
That said, odd friendships and enmities are surely one of the joys of playing? NPC's being active in RoE (unlike, sadly, in so many other games) freakish wars and alliances should be tempered - king A may like queen B, but if he tries to send 20 regiments across the continent to aid her against King C his people are likely to ask what the heck he's doing leaving them defenceless to aid a realm they've never heard of... Even sending a few GB could result in some sign of disapproval...
I agree with you on this, Andy. We can't protect the game from player enmity etc. It's obviously important to prevent it from spiralling into people actually leaving the game in anger, but not at the cost of RPG opportunities.
That said it's also important to keep within the same frame of the "rules", so the IC forums isn't for dispatch communication to all Anuire - unless the player is actually willing to pay the possible cost.
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It can however be an awfully quiet game if there is no such forum - a ruler may well interact with half a dozen domains in their realm or nearby, a wizard regent otoh may literally have no one to talk to other than their regent and maybe one or two other wizards - and the lack of interaction then drives minor regents from the game. For some players the forum is the only real interaction they get...
IMO, a regent has as many communication partners as his domain requires, +/- personal preference. As the ruler of Roesone, I expect to "chat" with those within my realm regularly, frequently with my allies/neighbors and friends, and not that often with others. Quite frankly, there's very little need for the baron of Roesone to do more than exchange pleasantries at a S&C with the likes of Tuornen, Talinie or Dhoesone (to name a few). We've no common interests, adversaries or goals for the most part and the occasional meeting to discuss a possible threat of "continental" importance is enough for me. Baron Arvour is certainly no philosopher to debate the finer points of society or religion (maybe a bit, being a Cuiraecen paladin) for its own sake with the priest regent of Talinie or to discuss the arcane nature of the Shadow world with Arlen Innis of Boeruine. Now, if there were a debate on the latest fad in siege warfare, that might spark sufficient interest for him to participate if he can leave his domain for the duration. Also, despite being a paladin he will not commit Roesonean forces to the defense of a faraway realm that he has no personal relationship with, so a "global" call for aid is definitely not going to appeal to him, unless Azrai or some such is the one invading.
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It can however be an awfully quiet game if there is no such forum - a ruler may well interact with half a dozen domains in their realm or nearby, a wizard regent otoh may literally have no one to talk to other than their regent and maybe one or two other wizards - and the lack of interaction then drives minor regents from the game. For some players the forum is the only real interaction they get...
Even a minor wizard regent, if they should feel adventurous, can stir up more trouble than their weight in gold if they be ambitious enough! >:(
as for the issue on goblinkind and since we are dealing with stereotypes, I would assume Orthodox temples would take a harder partyline against the toads than say the reformists would. Is this the case? ???
Also, I did a google search for racial slurs and epithet's for goblins and other fantasy creatures and came up emptyhanded. maybe we could start a list here, it could make our role-play IC more "flavorful" ;D
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For what it is worth the long pause in the pro-blodtheft and Goblin equal-rights movement have made me think twice. I would like to have my IC remarks in this matter ignored and I will try to stay out from future global debates inspired by Roberts post som 20+ days ago.
In game and thus IC IHH have little reason to turn hostile on Elinie => If my remarks are to stand please let me know and I will play along those lines but unless that happens I will stay civil untill IC reasons for being a prick
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Regarding names for goblins, I've had Aegis people use 'brutes' to refer to the bugbears and 'scrawns' to refer to the 'real goblins' as differentiators. I generally dislike using actual obscenities as even if directed elsewhere they are unpleasant and encourage a nasty gaming atmosphere.