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RoE Archive => RoE2 Archives => Courts of Anuire => : X-Elinie/RiD (Niels) January 23, 2009, 12:03:51 PM
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Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta invites the lords of Anuire to air their opinions on the topic; "Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms."
The form is by open letter, that is, a copy is made available to all regents that have diplomatic channels open to Elinie. - The debate takes place over several months of the spring and may continue well into summer.
Rashid is the Duke of Elinie, and along with Mhoried, Osoerde and several other regents, he has holdings in the goblin realm of Markazor. He begins the debate with an open letter;
"By the Grace of Haelyn, the human race have expanded everywhere, across the surface of Cerilia. We have had dealings with dwarves, elves and halflings and these races have integrated into our realms and live peacefully in mutual understanding.
The orogs are beasts with a culture steeped in violence, too far gone for peaceful relations. The goblins have historically been treated as pests, vermin to be driven out or destroyed.
However, with the taming of Markazor, goblins now swear fealty to human masters and present us with a conundrum aswell as an opportunity.
This is the reason for this discussion. A noble is obliged to protect his people from the predations of monsters, but when the "people" are what passed for monsters, mere years ago, what then, does the good regent do?
More pointedly, what does the regent do, when the people are preyed upon, not by monsters, but misguided but wellmeaning forces of good... Say Paladins for instance."
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The goblins have been treated as pests because they behave as pests and have always done so. Inherently they are creatures of evil nature.
For the sake of argument I will carry on with this, in my eyes, rather derailed discussion.
One could argue the orogs, should they swear fealty to a human master, should be protected by said human masters.
Myth has several examples to this; among those the story of the Drake comes to mind. He was master of the Orogs who in turn worshipped him as a dark good sacrificing plunder and slaves to him. I believe he protected them when it suited his own dark ends. Orogs seems not to be particularly happy about other humans though and besides their rumored worship of the Drake the orogs worship a fell demon; an ancient demon of some sort, summoned by Azrai. These nice creatures worship demons much as do the goblins who now call you their master.
I wonder what sort of master you is calling these creatures your citizens and I believe that the continued cooperation between “your” goblins and the wild goblins bare testimony to the impossibility of civilized goblins. These creatures are your pawns and you protect them and give them a safe haven where they can regain their former strength.
How does Elinie’s state faith LPA perceive this?
Do LPA sanction Goblins as civilized creatures and count them among their communion?
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I will not speak for the LPA, but note that they have already converted many goblins in Sutren Hills to the grace of Avanalae.
Know also, that the law of Elinie is in effect in the Hills, not the laws of Markazor that was.
Anyone able to call themselves sentient and live within the rules of said law, will be given sanctuary.
Obviously, monsters such as undead that cannot sustain themselves without causing the misery of other people are illegal, as they are in all of Anuire.
Indeed, Elinie is blessed with a multitude of species. We should not, and will not, go about slaying them out of hand. what about the Great Dragon in Hope's Demise? - The lizard folk that works and worships it?
The dwarves, elves and halflings?
Any bully will be treated evenly, orog, goblin or human. Actions, not heritage, will decide if you are monster or friend.
This does not mean that a citizen of Elinie, can do crimes in another country and then flee back, to escape just prosecution. There are rules and regulations for these things, and they must be respected without exception.
If we do not, then all that will remain is Chaos.
Many humans fought for Azrai. Many declared their allegience to the Dark. We have not slain all descendants of those who did this. Indeed, to assume that the crimes of their forefathers are carried by the children will begin a spiral of ever expanding violence and suffering.
Some, that live today, even carry the taint of the Azrai blood, but are well functioning people that do not do more evil, than any other man. It is not until a man allows himself to succumb to his dark side, and acts upon it, that he should be punished for his deeds.
This should not be interpreted to mean that due dilligence and observance should be neglected. Indeed the opposite.
Does the holy Pontiff speak for Osoerde and Mhoried? - Is his words to be taken as meaning, that goblins peacefully living in the Markazor provinces invaded by these two proud nations, are due to be hunted down and slain?
Although few in number, there are bound to be goblins blessed with blood of Holy derivation. Are they to be slain too? - Simply for being goblins?
What of Vosgard oh Holy Pontiff? - They are hard men of a hard land, and many of their traditions are harsh to the pampered eyes of civilized Anuire. Should they be slain as a matter of principle too?
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Please will the Duke of Elinie point to where I said to slay all goblins outright?
Do not quote me for things I have not said. I said "The goblins have been treated as pests because they behave as pests". I was not specific as to who have been treating them as pests.
LPA having goblins in their church is new to me and give cause for greater scrutiny of LPA’s Modus Operandi. This matter however will not be dealt with here.
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My sincerest and deepest apologies High Pontiff. It is now clear to me, that you do not consider goblins pests, but courageously, only as creatures of inherently evil nature.
The distinction is most subtle your Holiness, I missed the nuances of your good and chivalrous opinion.
I will convey the just feelings of the High Pontiff to all the people of Elinie, that there be left no doubt on the rulership of the combined churches of Haelyn, for whom only the High Pontiff may speak.
Most noble Pontiff, by the Grace of Haelyn, may reason ever light your path.
Does anyone else wish their voice be heard?
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Mastering Goblins a tad better than diplomacy the Duke of Elinie should take heed of this advice; the use of sarcasm is contra productive when trying to convince others to see things your way.
First quoting the Pontiff falsely and when caught in the act, to refrain from any kind of apologize but instead answering using sarcasm could be perceived as if you really do want to stir up troubles for you and your people.
Untruth denotes the disconformities of speech with reality. It is surely the source of evils. From this cause, the Book of Law has banned untruth, censured the untruthful, and threatened them through numerous texts following the tradition of the imperial temple and its inheritors.
Heed this warning and turn back before it is too late.
Repent instead of continuing down your path as lord of goblins and speaker of untruth as it will surely lead to your doom
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A letter is sent from Medoere on this subject.
Lords and Ladies,
The matter has been raised as whether or not goblins can be considered a part of our Empire.
I will answer thusly, that for some small part, they already are.
A very minor number of goblins can be found living alongside their human neighbors in southern Caerwil. Not a realm recently taken to the glory of the Empire, but a core part of the Medoerean realm.
They have been granted permission to stay, because they heed the laws of the land and generally keep to themselves. Of course, more focus are perhaps directed upon them, than would normally be set on such small numbers of people, but so far they have caused no problems. I even surmise, that with the propper incentive, they may yet prove a significant factor in dealing with the fell.
Personally I consider it somewhat of an experiment, but good might come out of it.
I ask that the gathered Lords think of the many fronts we already face. If we could utilize diplomacy, instead of steel, we might lessen some... Peace exists between human and goblin alike in Caerwil.
- Kaven Enlien, Baron of Medoere
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A letter from a sheriff in one of the more eastern villages of Mhoried.
A small group of goblins living quietly in the shadow of their neighours is one thing - the odd goblin has rarely been a problem. Goblins given equal rights as citizens, perhaps bearing arms in numbers, gaining position as sheriffs, even judges and given power over men? A very different story.
I can accept the odd goblin rising far above their peers, but these few are rare indeed, any hardship they face through stark conditions pale besides the harm the majority would do if unchecked. For the most part goblins are near feral and wedded to evil, alone or in small groups they avoid conflict, as their numbers grow so does their aggression and arrogance - even those apparently peaceful must be watched.
Few are those who live far from goblins and the tales - and presence - of raiders. The Spiderfell, the 5 Peaks, The Gorgon's Crown, Thurazor and sadly still Morcosoer. All the neighbours of these realms find raids an ever present reality, goblins follow readily the strong, and scorn those righteous. Even Dhoesone which has strived to make peace with Thurazor must periodically deal with trouble from its neighbour.
Such has it been since our ancestors drove the goblins from our lands - for most of Anuire was ruled by goblins before we fled Aduria - the hatreds are burnt bone deep into our marrow and any hope of teaching otherwise is the work of generations - should it be possible or desirable. To teach goblins civilisation, something far stranger to their nature than the forgetting of hatred is to ours, is an even harder task. I often hear talk of goblins converted by the village and hamlet; until you have seen a shrine supposedly dedicated to holy Nesirie despoiled by human sacrifice you have never tasted the bile of true hypocrisy or known the truth of how easily lies come to goblinkind. They may mouth obedience, but should you ever appear weak before them their loyalty will vanish and all you have built will be destroyed.
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Mastering Goblins a tad better than diplomacy the Duke of Elinie should take heed of this advice; the use of sarcasm is contra productive when trying to convince others to see things your way.
First quoting the Pontiff falsely and when caught in the act, to refrain from any kind of apologize but instead answering using sarcasm could be perceived as if you really do want to stir up troubles for you and your people.
Untruth denotes the disconformities of speech with reality. It is surely the source of evils. From this cause, the Book of Law has banned untruth, censured the untruthful, and threatened them through numerous texts following the tradition of the imperial temple and its inheritors.
Heed this warning and turn back before it is too late.
Repent instead of continuing down your path as lord of goblins and speaker of untruth as it will surely lead to your doom
Your Holiness, you do not seem like a man to gest. Yet surely you must, for it can surely not be your intention to call me, the Patriarch of Elinie, a Paladin of Avanalae, the god of Reason and Law, a liar?
My sincere apology was given, that I mistook the High Pontiff's words for his own, as there were no quotation to accredit and surely noone writes words they do not, at some level, believe in?
I have written no lies, and demand an apology, if liar is indeed what the High Pontiff of Haelyn, who is the god of chivalry, does call me.
Let all who see these letters, bear witness that I may be bold in debate but not a liar!
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You require me to apologize? For reacting to your quoting me falsely? Nowhere did I see you take responsebility for your error but use of sarcasm. My esteem for you are dropping as I write.
I think this correspondance will lead us nowhere and withdraw. If you want to discus these matters further with me please send a dispatch to the Conclave and your can defend your views before the cardinals
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Mis-readings and mis-understandings are common - should one have been mis-interpreted then it is a kindness to the other to state clearly the position one took - particularly if using humour or sarcasm, both of which are open to confusion. Should harsh words continue then it becomes time for anger for offence is then clearly intended.
As to debate, there is boldness, and then there is direct assault on the community and challenge to its ideals and morals - the latter is sure to meet not merely argument but anger. Little sign have I seen of recognition that goblins threaten many realms of Anuire, nor that until recent months they preyed upon the folk of Mhoried and Elenie even as they now prey upon Morcosoer.
Kindly recall good Patriarch that the wounds of such raids - and the recent wars - are yet raw and will be long in healing, it will be long those in discourse are dust in our graves that any change in relations between humanity and goblins such as that you propose will come to pass, to argue without recognising the inherent truths of the past is to undermine your argument for change in the future and rouse impatient response from those still faced with goblin blades poised above those in their charge.
We have spoken long of goblins and you have made clear the stern measures you have taken and continue to take to ensure that the goblins of the Sutren Hills prey not on others - yet no word of such has been aired in this discourse and so unsurprisingly you are not credited with understanding the threats - both overt and insidious - that goblins pose.
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I will keep my people under control. Goblin or otherwise.
And I have asked what approach I should choose, from the premise that the goblins are there to stay.
I have not recieved answers that does not stem from fear, that the goblins cannot be controlled, cannot be redeemed.
So, my original question remains unanswered aswell. - Except for Medoere who also has a population of goblins, and where they function within the framework of that area.
I would have liked to hear the views of Osoerde and Mhoried.
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Another letter is sent from Medoere.
"Lords and Ladies,
It seems to me, that we as a race would condemn others by the colour of their skin and the deeds of their forefathers. Yet in ages past, we where the agressors, driven by need at first, to claim land and later by desire to expand.
Is it so hard to believe, that creatures such as they might redeem themselves? Is it so hard to believe, that one might wish to turn towards what is good and right, or seek protection from cruel would-be masters?
Men serve dark forces too, yet they redeem themselves, by words and deed and all sing songs of praise to the Gods, me among the loudest, that those, who where once fallen, may return to the light again.
Noble folk, some pressed against their will, others embracing the darkness willingly once, all these may turn their backs on who they where once and step back into the arms and bossoms of the gods. Why there is even living walking proof of such recent happenings, yet when something of a different appearance try the same, we mock and scorn them, or seek to drive them back, into the arms of their old masters.
I wonder how often a creature has sought to leave it's past behind it and seek a better way of life, only to be trampled to death by a mob, fearful of that which they do not know. Bear that in mind, before you throw the killing stone."
- Kaven Enlien, Baron of Medoere
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As far as IHH are concerned goblin raiders will regardless of whatever arguments the good Baron kaven or the leader of Elinie come up with be killed on sight, relentlessly pursued and their lair burned out.
Unlike human’s goblin are born evil. Goblins are evil at heart. When unchecked goblins kill, rape, plunder, cheat, lie and generally spread mayhem to their neighbors. Millenniums of atrocities executed against innocent human farmers testimony to that.
Goblins apparently civilized only pretend as to escape rightful judgment. At any time they can lapse back and show their true nature.
While IHH do not advocate for actual genocide of the goblin race we do want them removed from our lands - as far away as possible.
If the leader of Elinie tries to convince us otherwise he either has lost all sense or is in league with evil. Pretending his agenda is only good he fail to listen to any arguments, quote false and lapse to sarcasm. If he wishes to be known as the Goblin Lord it’s his choice but I ask him not to poison the mind of others.
Needless to say the leader of Elinie, also known as the Goblin Lord, will be held responsible for atrocities committed by goblins under his protection.
Wallac Isilviere
Pontiff Conclave of Temples
High Prefect IHH
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A letter once more origins from Medoere.
"Lords and Ladies,
The notion that anyone, human or otherwise, might be born evil is a grave thing and not to be taken too lightly.
If evil in a goblin is a cause of nature, instead of nurture as others, myself amongst them, are want to believe, this also bears with it, that to slay such creatures whenever you meet them would be an act of goodness.
By such admission an unborn goblin child might be just as evil as the leader of a raiding warparty... it is in their nature to do evil, is the argument. Thus whether we strike at the unborn in it's womb or the raiding goblin waving a weapon at our head, we would be acting in the service of good.
But it does not end there.
By accepting that the nature of the goblin is evil, we also admit that a human willingly chooses to do evil, against his better nature.
Is such a man not more evil, than the goblin then? For the goblin has no choice, if it is his nature to act as he does and the human willfully steps from the path of righteousness... yet we give the human a chance at redemption and not the goblin. Why? Because we believe that one who strays from the path, can return. Yet what would hinder him in straying again, should opportunity present itself?
Good Godfearing Anuireans achieve material and social wealth by living by the rules of the society. Good people decide to achieve their goals through means that are considered good in their ethics, just as bad people consciously choose evil means.
I say, that though the goblin societies might build on principles, that we consider evil, where I to take a goblin child from his tribe and nurture him in our world and society, he would consider these principles his own and act accordingly, by our rules and laws.
Evil stems from nurture not nature. And I for one great the noble 'Goblin Lord' as an equal and only wish that I myself might act more as he, to prove this.
- Kaven Enlien, Baron of Enlien.
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Man is born with a weakness he can barely endure, so it is for the Orthodox Imperial Temple of Haelyn to shepherd him along the path of light. But some do not listen, and fall by the wayside to be consumed by the shadow. So our work continues to purge the blight that they are, from the land.
Goblin kind are tools of the shadow, cruel and twisted, pawns made to perpetrate the evil of any that would bend them to their will. Their very being is an anathema to our beliefs, our way of life, our civilisation. So it is most fortunate that their very form marks their wicked ways for all to see. So can the evil be plucked out and the righteous folk made safe.
We must be vigilant and guard against the whisperer in darkness, real or imagined that paints these things as virtuous. It was ever the way of the shadow to subvert and pervert with lies and deceit.
But for those faiths that cannot but help themselves weaken, do not go so far as to give these creatures the benefit of any doubt. If you must, let them prove themselves ten times over then perhaps there may be a case to be made, but not before.
The OIT will not weaken, will not forget. Even if others do.
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The Baron replies:
"Lords and Ladies,
I thank the Orthodoxy for making clear their viewpoint, especially since I deduce from their answer, that they do not see goblins as evil by nature as well, but rather tools, twisted by their society and beliefs.
As historicans and theologians would have it, it was the shadow-god who bent the goblins to do his bidding, just as he bend the minds and ways of other men and beasts.
But if a man can be redeemed, why not a goblin? The followers of Ruornil have to persue this train of thought, for if goblins might redeem themself or turn against their evil nurturing, then perhaps... one day... we might deprive the ancient foe of one of his tools in our realm."
- Kaven Enlien, Baron of Medoere
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Lord Enlien, to slay evil may be an act of goodness, but it is not necessarily an act of law, for states and faiths rightly constrain the rights of their followers to act with violence lest chaos and blood-lust ensure.
One must consider the impact on the slayer you theorise over Lord Enlien - would you truly expect any to casually countenance the slaughter of unarmed and helpless foes? Even of goblins that is a dangerous lesson, whither next - bandits? Then lawbreakers? The the idle or merely poor? The Aegis welcomes the deaths of raiders, warbands and the like, but knows well the darkness waiting to devour those who forget their humanity - goblins may deserve death, but we owe it to ourselves to remember mercy whenever possible. When goblin clans begin to encroach on human lands it can be justified to scour clean their warrens to deter further encroachment, when mighty realms prove themselves unyielding foes such force as is necessary to crush them may be applied - but such should be done only after grave consideration and by those trained to the task and disciplined to go no further than they must and with heavy heart at the need.
Men choose evil, or perhaps more accurately in the most case, blind themselves to good and deafen themselves to the cries of those they harm. But goblins are, in the main, born to such condition. While the man may be redeemed, or his children born to grace, such seems rare in the extreme for goblins and so ever will men be cherished more by the gods. Should a rare few goblins grow to grace then they should indeed be praised, but I see no true exemplars of virtue amongst them.
As to what hinders the penitent from straying, many things do so. How many young men grow to be pillars of their community once youthful folly is outgrown and they stand married and parent with craft? How many such folk indeed turn with vehemence on their former lives and strive to attain righteousness? Those who return to evil ways oft do so because they were coerced into abstinence of such and then escaped the watchful eyes that imposed restrictions upon them - the answer is thus to watch until such danger is well past.
As to good and bad choices, many we consider evil sincerely feel that they are right - they consider that mercy is folly, for in harsh conditions it robs the strong of support and so risks the community; perhaps such might have been true ages past, or in benighted lands such as far Vosgaard, yet still we priests come across such folk in Anurie today. Others consider that great strength, endurance or the like entitle them to more, ignoring the fact that the humble horse or bull is stronger by far than any mortal man but was made to serve us. Few choose to do wrong simply because it is wrong - save perhaps rebellious youths spoilt when young - most do so from some deficiency in compassion, empathy, understanding of the world or ones place in it.
It is however innate, it seems, in men that most hold true to certain core beliefs. Whichever of the ancient tribes of men we look to, we find recognition of debt earned and owed, pride in the accomplishment of ones fellows, respect for piety, love for one's children and honour for one's parents lauded, exultance in life and the striving for havens of peace and joy. In us, the gods gave an instinctive understanding for that which is good. Such desires can be suppressed by culture - think of the bloodthirst of the Vos or the feral children raised by bandits, but even in these twisted cultures one sees faint attempts to form some code of honour by which they might live and strivings for joy. Thus one sees that nature continues true despite the striving of nurtre to confound it.
In goblins however the opposite seems to hold true, whether reading the ancient tales of the tribes of the Andu, or the modern tales from Brecht travelers, goblin lands are ones in which these clear truths seem absent. While a goblin might, I suppose, be taught such things, will they ever truly understand them as we do? Plant a seed in rocky soil and but a twisted scrub will grow regardless of the care bestowed.
Remember that the goblins, like other beastmen, were twisted by Azrai to serve him as warriors, assassins and labourers - only one who was the Shadow's master in the shapings of flesh and soul could thus ever redeem the goblins for good. To strive to teach goblins goodness will thus ever be as ineffective as baling a broken dam, the Shadow wrought in them a desire for power and violence, and struck from them mercy and other things he deemed weakness - so ever will they willingly return to darkness however far they are led towards the light.
OOC: I'm assuming that there is an equivalent tale in Anuirean, for those unfamiliar, baling a broken dam saves the village from flooding - but only so long as they keep baling the water - indicating the futility of trying to solve the symptom not the cause.
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"Lords and Ladies,
Though the Haelyn's Aegis hold valid points, they ultimately fail to see some of the points first laid out before them.
'As to good and bad choices, many we consider evil sincerely feel that they are right - they consider that mercy is folly, for in harsh conditions it robs the strong of support and so risks the community' - does that not also hold true for what we know of goblin society? Mayhaps we simply fear and loathe that, which we do not know propperly?
'In goblins however the opposite seems to hold true' - the esteemed Haelyn's Aegis writes and refer to tales of old. Yet these same tales seem to indicate that once, the tribes of the goblinoid where something else. Is it then folly, to wish to restore to them, what has been so twisted by the shadow? I am not suggesting that you preach for every goblin, especially if they seek to raid you land. You would not seek to do that, even for a man, should he do the same.
Yet given the opportunity, I would rather attempt to right these creatures, for what has been wrongfully wrought upon their race by the shadows, than skewer them on the end of my blade.
Granted, one may be the quicker way to salvation for the goblinoid, but it also means that our next generations, will be facing their next generations, perhaps with the same stalemate and borders as now. If they could change, perhaps, in generations to come, an cease fire may be enacted. Or, Ruornil willing, even peace."
- Kaven Enlien, Baron of Medoere