Re: Conclave special session during S&C

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

The OoC isn't really the place to asking this question.

 Do it IC, since technically - even if you may not want to - the IHH still holds the Pontifficate and are responsible for all questions of tithe.

Seriously you mean I shall ask the CoT about my DO lol!

If Isilviere is technically still Pontiff he has to pay 6 GB? I cannot see that he is anymore; there is to be a vote. The vote most likely say there will be a Grand Conclave and after having setled that vote CoT shall decide who will held Pontiffs chair untill and during Grand Conclave; that seems very unlikely to be Wallac. His closest ally in CoT, ETN, is not present and many friends have turned their back on him.

a snowball in hell have greater chance to survive than Wallac being Pontiff untill next Grand Conclave

"The WIT, CJS & EOM vote aye to the Grand Conclave."

This intentionel or EOM voting via WIT a mistake?

[X-DM Jon]

I had Caelan make the point on 'pay as your honour dictates' deliberately to avoid the ongoing wars Kasper got.

Face it, the WIT consider themselves above us all, and no Pontiff will ever make them pay their fair share or do anything they don't want to do as they see themselves as the only real 'Pontiff' with everyone else just a pretender keeping their seat warm - frankly short of starting a holy war and killing the Arch Prelate (don't tempt me, he's theoretically a vague ally) the Pontiff's role is going to be a nightmare with them around for anyone.

So Robhan's view is 'pay at least half, pay the rest if you have any respect for the Conclave.  He's hoping that if he gets lumbered with the job then even the WIT won't whine over 3 lousy GB.

Of course, the fun will be when the Avan vs Boeruine war hots up, and the WIT starts getting some interesting choices on who to support - can the rest of us help break up the dominance of the north-west?  Can we convince Brandon "bloodtheft" Boer to see the Arch Prelate as closer to the Avan family than the Green Knight?  (People further than the GN being fairly irrelevant in the scheme of things as I doubt that Brandon is going to kill that particular Avan...)

The Conclave is one of the more active threads, and one of the louder ones, but its obviously been hell on Kasper.

Hmm, I need to check my budget, see how much closer to bankruptcy I'll get if I get stuck with it.

 That is an assumption that will keep the conflict rolling and tear the Conclave apart.

 The WIT were an integral part of creating the Conclave, which neither the IHH nor the HA were. Both IHH and HA were bought with Pontifficates.
 What the WIT wants is the Conclave to stick to what it is, not be some grand centralized organisation pooling all power in the hands of one man. And you can ridicule the size of the tithe all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that, as of now, the temples of Anuire, divided and wartorn Anuire, are paying gold that equals the income of a Barony to one man, one domain, one sphere of influence.

 If that man acts erratic or doesn't show the proper respect to the myriad of conflicting interests, he will find out just how torn Anuire is. You haven't even begun to scratch the surface in this regard.

[X-Osoerde (Alan)]

OOC: STOP THE OOC CRAP!! TAKE IT TO THE OOC BOARD!!

"I concur with the High Hierophant. Though I have other concerns as well, I do not want Anuire to believe that through the murder of a pontiff, the mantle of Pontiff shall pass easily from Haelynite-to-Haelynite or from Tradition-to-Tradition.  This is only a precusor to events which we shall not desire for the CoT."

The LPA votes aye to the coming Grand Conclave.

OOC: I am not sure I understand what you mean regarding the mantle of pontiff. The High Hierophant expressed a wish that ETN held the chair during the comming Grand Conclave. Please help me understand

With very little eloquence, she is saying that she does think that the murder of a pontiff, should result in the pontificate changing traditions, because it implies that one should kill the pontiff in order to get the pontificate to change to a particular tradition (which may be more favorable to the murderer, I assume).

[X-DM Jon]

The OoC isn't really the place to asking this question.

 Do it IC, since technically - even if you may not want to - the IHH still holds the Pontifficate and are responsible for all questions of tithe.

Seriously you mean I shall ask the CoT about my DO lol!

If Isilviere is technically still Pontiff he has to pay 6 GB? I cannot see that he is anymore; there is to be a vote. The vote most likely say there will be a Grand Conclave and after having setled that vote CoT shall decide who will held Pontiffs chair untill and during Grand Conclave; that seems very unlikely to be Wallac. His closest ally in CoT, ETN, is not present and many friends have turned their back on him.

a snowball in hell have greater chance to survive than Wallac being Pontiff untill next Grand Conclave

"The WIT, CJS & EOM vote aye to the Grand Conclave."

This intentionel or EOM voting via WIT a mistake?

 EOM intentional. Player permission given while he's away.

 You're mixing the person with the temple. Isilviere is not the total sum of the IHH.
The IHH is the Pontiff's temple, even if Wallac doesn't think he is the Pontiff. They are obligated by treaty to pay that tithe. Now you could make the claim that since your title has been placed in question, the IHH is just one of the Haelynic temples, but it does not allow for the general waiver of tithe.

 A Grand Conclave will decide who holds the office of Pontiff from the point of the Grand Conclave.


 The ETN is present.

[X-MOC/Leman States (Even)]

Quote from: DM Jon on Today at 20:49:44
The OoC isn't really the place to asking this question.

 Do it IC, since technically - even if you may not want to - the IHH still holds the Pontifficate and are responsible for all questions of tithe.

Seriously you mean I shall ask the CoT about my DO lol!

If Isilviere is technically still Pontiff he has to pay 6 GB? I cannot see that he is anymore; there is to be a vote. The vote most likely say there will be a Grand Conclave and after having setled that vote CoT shall decide who will held Pontiffs chair untill and during Grand Conclave; that seems very unlikely to be Wallac. His closest ally in CoT, ETN, is not present and many friends have turned their back on him.

That is the whole point of the IC thread. Whether Wallac is 'technically' the pontiff is 100% a in-character decision/debate. Some people argue that he is still the pontiff, others argue that he never was. Asking people for their OOC opinion on these points kind of defeats the purpose of all of us taking on various roles of characters in the game. We probably have our personal opinions of what is right or wrong, but the interesting part is what the regents think, and argue about.

[X-DM Jon]

OOC: STOP THE OOC CRAP!! TAKE IT TO THE OOC BOARD!!

"I concur with the High Hierophant. Though I have other concerns as well, I do not want Anuire to believe that through the murder of a pontiff, the mantle of Pontiff shall pass easily from Haelynite-to-Haelynite or from Tradition-to-Tradition.  This is only a precusor to events which we shall not desire for the CoT."

The LPA votes aye to the coming Grand Conclave.

OOC: I am not sure I understand what you mean regarding the mantle of pontiff. The High Hierophant expressed a wish that ETN held the chair during the comming Grand Conclave. Please help me understand

With very little eloquence, she is saying that she does think that the murder of a pontiff, should result in the pontificate changing traditions, because it implies that one should kill the pontiff in order to get the pontificate to change to a particular tradition (which may be more favorable to the murderer, I assume).

 Too true 

[X-DM Jon]

Quote from: DM Jon on Today at 20:49:44
The OoC isn't really the place to asking this question.

 Do it IC, since technically - even if you may not want to - the IHH still holds the Pontifficate and are responsible for all questions of tithe.

Seriously you mean I shall ask the CoT about my DO lol!

If Isilviere is technically still Pontiff he has to pay 6 GB? I cannot see that he is anymore; there is to be a vote. The vote most likely say there will be a Grand Conclave and after having setled that vote CoT shall decide who will held Pontiffs chair untill and during Grand Conclave; that seems very unlikely to be Wallac. His closest ally in CoT, ETN, is not present and many friends have turned their back on him.

That is the whole point of the IC thread. Whether Wallac is 'technically' the pontiff is 100% a in-character decision/debate. Some people argue that he is still the pontiff, others argue that he never was. Asking people for their OOC opinion on these points kind of defeats the purpose of all of us taking on various roles of characters in the game. We probably have our personal opinions of what is right or wrong, but the interesting part is what the regents think, and argue about.

  Thank you Even, this is exactly what I meant to say.

[X-MOC/Leman States (Even)]

The OoC isn't really the place to asking this question.

 Do it IC, since technically - even if you may not want to - the IHH still holds the Pontifficate and are responsible for all questions of tithe.

Seriously you mean I shall ask the CoT about my DO lol!

If Isilviere is technically still Pontiff he has to pay 6 GB? I cannot see that he is anymore; there is to be a vote. The vote most likely say there will be a Grand Conclave and after having setled that vote CoT shall decide who will held Pontiffs chair untill and during Grand Conclave; that seems very unlikely to be Wallac. His closest ally in CoT, ETN, is not present and many friends have turned their back on him.

a snowball in hell have greater chance to survive than Wallac being Pontiff untill next Grand Conclave

"The WIT, CJS & EOM vote aye to the Grand Conclave."

This intentionel or EOM voting via WIT a mistake?

As for the DO, it should represent what your Domain does. If Wallac sincerely believes/feels that he is not the pontiff, he should stop paying the tithe. Or just pay the tithe for whatever position he feels he holds.

There's an awful lot of IC politicking that could go into just that simple statement. 

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

The perception from a IHH point of view is that If someone not IHH hold the Pontiffs office untill the comming Grand Conclave, IHH wont pay more than any other Haelyn temple. On the other hand if Wallac is temporary hold Pontiffs office untill comming Grand Conclave that calls for the full tithe as Pontiff.

And I note I ommited a very important point in my original post: What do we do with DO if the CoT does not finish this S&C? I found that one to belong OOC - permission to delay deliver of DO for the temples involved?

Stupid that I removed it doing edits 

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

If I am not mistaken theres 16 votes in CoT and thus 2/3 majority is reached with 11+ votes.

So far 10 have voted for Grand Conclave

[X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)]

That is an assumption that will keep the conflict rolling and tear the Conclave apart.

Not really, based on the public forum stuff I saw Wallac basically said 'pay the tithe - if you want to pay in service I will decide if it satisfies the criteria' - which is squarely in his role - the WIT told him where to stick it - they would decide whether or not to pay.  I saw zero respect from WIT ever to anyone. They were deliberately provocative, deliberately unreasonable, and generally acted like they were above everyone else - now that may be what they really think, they're a big temple that goes in for domination, but frankly with the WIT in the Conclave, acting as they are, there is no Conclave and the rest of us are wasting our time and money on it.

Now if they were refusing to pony up purely because they didn't think Wallac was Pontiff, and will show respect for an elected Pontiff going forward, then they have a slim excuse - the next Pontiff will find out either way and the Conclave likely stand or fall on the result.

What the WIT wants is the Conclave to stick to what it is, not be some grand centralized organisation pooling all power in the hands of one man.

I've seen nothing to suggest this as their view.  They deliberately voided two key tenets of their side of the whole deal - pay the tithe, and 'show some respect for the position' - neither would have given them any inconvenience so it looks like a pure ego trip for them all the way. Whining that the Pontiff responded by treated them badly is hardly the point - any Pontiff would respond badly to a member who ignores their obligations.

If the WIT wanted to avoid 'the pontiff has the knights on a string' they could easily have proposed a '2 cardinals and pontiff must vote for the knights to send more than 'x' troops to war' rule - 2 is low enough to avoid any delay problems, but stops a potential lunatic pontiff.  uite what other authority the Pontiff has beyond the moral has clearly passed me by, the WIT refused to even accept he could chair the meetings...

And you can ridicule the size of the tithe all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that, as of now, the temples of Anuire, divided and wartorn Anuire, are paying gold that equals the income of a Barony to one man, one domain, one sphere of influence.

Yes, the combined tithe is very chunky Jon; but individually, for each temple, its hardly overwhelming.  Also it hardly goes to one man, it goes to 1 office, is watched by a) their domain b) the knights and c) all of us who will be able to figure out how much went to the knights.  Also consider the purpose of the Conclave (at least from the Aegis viewpoint) - an army the equal of a barony is more the minimum for the purpose than the maximum...  Now if Wallac had started sending the knight son his personal quests, and generally interfered in internal workings of members, then the WIT might have a point, but I saw nothing to suggest that he was.

Incidentally Caelan in particular has been flying some political points in the Conclave, particularly on this point - don't assume that I agree with everything my guys say 

If that man acts erratic or doesn't show the proper respect to the myriad of conflicting interests, he will find out just how torn Anuire is. You haven't even begun to scratch the surface in this regard.

Indeed, the WIT will find out - the IHH is not the only temple likely to leave if the WIT 'Thou shalt worship me as a god vermin' Arch-Prelate takes the Pontificate role - he is far guiltier of the accusations he is throwing than Wallac ever was.

[X-DM Jon]

Let me quote you the exact reason why you are wrong, they have not told the Pontiff where to "stick it":

Dispatch to all temples of the Conclave.

The WIT ask that the Pontiff allow the tithe of the WIT and the CJS, + all vassals of the WIT (OoC: hereafter named, we'll be certain to inform you if there are ordinary temples who are not within the WIT sphere) that our tithe be used towards the army keeping guard on the Alamien and Tuornen border to the Five Peaks, from whence the undead still strike all Anuire.
 (OoC: This obviously includes a detailed rundown of the WIT forces in question, I'll send you a detailed list asap)

 The WIT will pay any and all tithe that the Pontiff righteously demands, only we ask this excemption with honour and with a strong sense of the duty that our constant vigilance demands.

 Prelate Kharnmoien of the WIT

 Obviously this statement completely drowned in a drawn out argument over the Pontiff's threat of war against any temple that would not pay it's tithe.

 I say again; your assumptions are what will draw out this conflict.

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Jon that one post was drowned by the myriad of posts made by the Arch Prelate along the line outlined by Andy above. Really what stands is WIT have been going out of their way to make constant harrasment of Wallac Isilviere

Out of Character, I Kasper, have been rather unhappy holding Pontiffs office simply for the massive harrasment by WIT. I love this game and enjoy it; Holding the Pontiffs office I hate.

EDIT:
I have read through some of the old posts before and after the one Jon quote.
It only confirmed what I remembered; WIT is just as described by Andy above

The one well behaved post you pull and quote above here dont change my perception of this. WIT are allowed to be pricks but they have made me, Kasper, wishing never to hold Pontiffs office again and perhaps even leave CoT all together.

The post made right after the one you qoute, a post made in answer to HA answering your quoted post, ended like this:

We will not allow this Pontiff to believe he can declare war as he likes. His place lies in making decisions where our armies could be best used, not in money grubbing or acting the father of all Anuire.

I believe any remnisens of respect was removed once more going back to WIT standard modus operandi.

I was damned when I found out that the temple I had applied for held Pontiffs office; I knew not even of CoT at that time.

I drowned being on deep water knowing not really anything about how CoT worked, its history or even its rules. Slowly some of those things got fixed. Some got posted and something was told to me.

As a new player 3 months ago I say I was thrown to the lions and the fallout from that is the Grand Conclave next season.

And still the very basics of any organistation ability to hold meetings and make decisions is ommited from the CoT Charter

That could be the new pontiffs grand task; to fix some of the holes in CoT charter. And as I am now leaving Pontiffs office I ask that WIT harrasment is to be downplayed a lot. Sure it can be fun reading and I believe fun to write WIT rants but I am not sure the WIT harrasment contribute positively to the game by making the post of Pontiff the hotseat no-one wants to hold

Ok someone will not mind and can take the crap; me I have better things to do in m game 

[X-DM Jon]

I quite understand your point, however it is as it must be. Your personal feelings are your own and I would dear wish you kept them there, because you're mixing them into IC matters. Which means you're mixing business and pleasure.

Here's what I see the problem as:
 Since you tried to strongarm the Conclave; declaration of war against temples not paying their tithe and such, you ran smack into a load of trouble. They tried to strongarm you back into what they thought was the Pontiff's place - a primus inter pares, first amongst equals. The HA supported you in your assumptions, restarted the fight and walked right into the crossfire.

 The latest was your attempt at forcing the war tithe, stating that the temples appearing at the Conclave were to run any agendas by you before you would allow it and forging the KoH into a central Conclave army led by the Pontiff.
 That was the reason why several temples, led by the WIT, decided to force the issue and attempt to get rid of you. Because they do not want that kind of Conclave.

 It has always been a political matter, riddled with assumptions, fears and so on. I urge you all to read the history of the Catholic Pontifficate, if you want to see just how bad things can get. Indeed the current Popes are perhaps the most stable in several centuries, go back four links or so and you have the last assassinated Pope.
 These matters are not fun and games, but deadly serious high politics.

 Force against force in a continuous dance.

[X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)]

Jon I was a new player remember? I was acting mostly in blindnes. If I have ever regretted a post it was the one with war. I spend like what felt to etternity to try to make amends for that one.

Interesting ever before making that stupid remark about war and before making anybody mad I invited WIT to help formulate my policy as Pontiff as part of a wish to make for a more stable CoT not changing policy major with every new Pontiff. I got completely ignored for that and other friendly remarks in general to CoT.

You where a real good help in all areas of entering game a new player but your playing of WIT vs the green newbie upstart soon-to-learn-to-behave-pontiff.

I send so many stupid questions and you patiently replied.

The playing of WIT, I perceived Jon as the psyckotic mugger and myself as easy game.

But I think I shall stop being part of this discusion because I really am quite frustrated and it end up that I cross the line