Twilightpeaks.net
TP.net => The Great Beyond (OOC) => : X-Coeranys/WD (Greg) March 16, 2009, 12:00:48 AM
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OOC: I'll give a little more time. If we are but a minority of temples present the session will be meaningless.
What about WIT and NIT?
Huh? Oh, whew! I thought I read is as "Nit-wit"... :D <Just a joke everyone>
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OOC: I'll give a little more time. If we are but a minority of temples present the session will be meaningless.
What about WIT and NIT?
Huh? Oh, whew! I thought I read is as "Nit-wit"... :D <Just a joke everyone>
OOC: I was sooo close to also call that one. :)
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Please write those admittedly fun jokes in OOC mirror and keep this thread void of anything by IC or OOC to organize
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Kasper,
I'd recommend getting the conclave session going if there is to be any time for it at all. Waiting for all players to chime in will simply not work. Even when there are interactive adventures there will be times when waiting for everybody causes evrything to grind to a halt.
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Even its started and you are right.
A little problem between KoH and Diemed demanded my attention and I hoped to be on my way solving it before the session. However I have not gotten the answers from those two in that regard
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I wish everyone could read this forum.
This is TRUE RoE style twists occuring in the Conclave. If the new players could see what is going on, it might be helpful in understand the environment around them (particularly some of you Danish socialist hippies ;) ).
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Complete mayhem ::)
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Apparently. Good grief. Was this player-initiated, or fiendish DM machinations?
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I wish everyone could read this forum.
This is TRUE RoE style twists occuring in the Conclave. If the new players could see what is going on, it might be helpful in understand the environment around them (particularly some of you Danish socialist hippies ;) ).
Well I for one as a relatively new player find it completely frustrating that the office of Pontiff is so vaguely defined, seating order, executing body, who is chairman deciding order of votes etc.
In short I assumed the Pontiff is the Speaker and that perhaps was my greatest error. Besides that I simply have not the rl time to continue endless debates, intrigues and powergames set within a, to me, not too clearly defined arena.
I have consequently just resigned as Pontiff with immediate effect. WIT drove me crazy with great skill and the lack of support from the other temples really left me no option. The funny thing is the vote of confidence I had proposed seemed to go my way.
Apparently. Good grief. Was this player-initiated, or fiendish DM machinations?
Being slightly biased I would say DM initiated machinations!
Jon I will get back on you for this :P
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political affairs are very difficult....even in a fantasy game like RoE II ;)
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You speak the truth
However I am a veteran of several political games; I have even won a few of them :D
I have even been running some sort of Ideology live rpg over two weeks full time with cabinetpost, press and the. 25 players. That one was some years back but quite successfull albeit I refrained reruns due to the time constrains.
The game was made up by a friend of mine and me based on 20th centery history 1900-1950
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Complete mayhem ::)
really....seems Eloéle the most followed God :P as EOM I should be happy :P
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Actually this is a very good lesson. I am sure how well warned you were, but the Conclave is a collection of rivals, in many ways, Mhoried is the same.
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You speak the truth
However I am a veteran of several political games; I have even won a few of them :D
Congrats....I've never won....but I play for fun not for win ;) and I must admit I had fun in the Conclave...even if you were forced to resign...I liked the way you wanted to act as Pontiff...but I think I was the only one :D
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Actually this is a very good lesson. I am sure how well warned you were, but the Conclave is a collection of rivals, in many ways, Mhoried is the same.
I do not feel I was well warned but then again I may have been dense
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I do not feel I was well warned but then again I may have been dense
I definitely tried, nonetheless, this hasn't played out yet, either.
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Thanks for trying though :)
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The history of the Pontifficate has been nothing but entertaining so far.
First we have the three powerful; Armiendin, Briesen and Nichaleir. Clash of the titans. All want to be Pontiff. Briesen dies on the slopes of Battlewaite, fighting the Gorgon. Aurlien is elected after him. Armiendin is elected as Pontiff of central and eastern Anuire, but dies the same mont. Nichaleir and Armiendin kill each other under the foul sorcery of the EO.
Second generation Pontiff's; Aurlien, Kharnmoien and Royce. A Machiavellian bunch; Royce tries to continue Armiendin's Pontifficate, but looses Aurlien. Kharnmoien concentrates on the west, joining it ever closer under his leadership. Aurlien approaches Kharnmoien and creates the CoT. Royce joins the CoT due to the promise of second in line as Pontiff. Power goes to Aurlien's head (or so it is said) and he starts doling out forgiveness left, right and centre, while getting into a conflict with the ETN on matters of dogma and politics.
Royce picks up the pieces of the CoT, Aurlien's conflict with the ETN left it in a poor shape indeed, Aurlien abdicates as Cardinal when it is apparent he's gotten himself into a corner and leaves for parts unknown. Royce is subsequently slain by Archduke Osoer (it is said) or some unknown evil.
Third generation Pontiff's: Wallac Isilviere decides to pick up the pieces of the CoT, but is met by a storm of distrust from the west, bickering from the Heartlands and nothing but trouble from the nobility.
In disgust he's tried to abdicate, but might not be allowed to because a Grand Conclave is needed to allow for abdication.
Will the Conclave of Temples survive!? Or will it collapse in endless internal squabbling!? Stand by for the next turn of intrigue, diplomacy, hatred and high passion that is...
Ruins of Empire
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Well I believe Wallac Isilviere wont give a f... wether or not his abdication will be accepted. The CoT cannot really force him; they can call him Pontiff as much as they want to. Should it become relevant Wallac will correct those that address him as Pontiff. He will not play it down; he will make it public known he is no longer Pontiff; that he has resigned having lost a popularity contest vs the Arch Prelate.
CoT is afterall acting headless so why insist calling Isilviere the head?
Clergery of CoT will be turned back, requests to him as Pontiff will be flatly ignored etc.
In short Wallac Isilviere have realized the CoT is, as he perceives it, simply found lacking and instead of an institution of holines working for the faith and for all Anuire, it has become a battleground for personal ambitions. He have better things to do than be part of this and leave the Pontiffs office to who may want it.
If the remaining members of CoT tries to force him holding the office untill the Grand Conclave he will get rather angry.
On a side note nowhere in CoT's charter does it state that a Pontiff may not resign and Wallac Isilviere did not ask for the Pontiffs office - he sorely miss Martin Royce and since no one objected to WIT's laughable claims that there should be a Grand Conclave right away, CoT have had it upon itself.
Besides he was never elected for office remember? That was WIT's argument. Did LPA or others protest to that?
If so Wallac apperently missed it
I so look forward to see what WIT say to Wallac Isilvieres resignation. They had their way - now Wallac Isilviere have simply given them what WIT wanted; removed his presence from CoT.
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Well I for one as a relatively new player find it completely frustrating that the office of Pontiff is so vaguely defined, seating order, executing body, who is chairman deciding order of votes etc.
In short I assumed the Pontiff is the Speaker and that perhaps was my greatest error. Besides that I simply have not the rl time to continue endless debates, intrigues and powergames set within a, to me, not too clearly defined arena.
Perhaps you were right in assuming the Pontiff is the speaker?!? I for one would certainly do so. BUT, that does not mean that anybody have to care what the speaker says. Unless he physically (or magically) tries to restrain somebody, they can say or shout what they want.
Even when there is a speaker, things can go very wrong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IK7dgzb-xo
;D
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Lol
Even thats exactly the situation Wallac would not see happening. Thus he wrote those notes to the Chamberlain, who unfortunately wished not to do the dirty works. Instead of helping the Pontiff keeping things in order he listened to the troublemaker and said out loud that there could be a Grand Conclave; even that CoT needed one ???
CoT simply lack a secret police to enforce the will of the Pontiff rules for the authority of Pontiff/Speaker
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Wow... I hope more leaks out on the cause and effect that ended up with That result!!
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Lol
Even thats exactly the situation Wallac would not see happening. Thus he wrote those notes to the Chamberlain, who unfortunately wished not to do the dirty works. Instead of helping the Pontiff keeping things in order he listened to the troublemaker and said out loud that there could be a Grand Conclave; even that CoT needed one ???
CoT simply lack a secret police to enforce the will of the Pontiff rules for the authority of Pontiff/Speaker
No, rules do not help if somebody does not intend to follow them. What the conclave needs is obedient followers ;D
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Lol
Even thats exactly the situation Wallac would not see happening. Thus he wrote those notes to the Chamberlain, who unfortunately wished not to do the dirty works. Instead of helping the Pontiff keeping things in order he listened to the troublemaker and said out loud that there could be a Grand Conclave; even that CoT needed one ???
CoT simply lack a secret police to enforce the will of the Pontiff rules for the authority of Pontiff/Speaker
No, rules do not help if somebody does not intend to follow them. What the conclave needs is obedient followers ;D
And as for that... Even Gods despair... ::)
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I went to bed last night with the peace/war vote underway. I get home from work and have missed several more votes, a veto, an imminent grand conclave, and a resignation. That will teach the Cardinal to nod off when the conclave is in session ???
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Sorry. Perhaps we should not post as in frenzy :-[
But it have been going down the drain for a while. Perhaps not visible to all temples in CoT but it has. WIT harrasing the Pontiff, the Pontiff provocing the Arch Prelate and in general holding the Pontiffs office being a real tough call since one gets much less willing cooperation than demands, wishes of special privilegdes, outright veto's (legal or not) and last straw the Chamberlein apperently (at least to Wallac Isilviere) siding with WIT.
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Guy de Nichalier would never say so in public, but a Haelynite is supposed to treat his duty as a religious obligation.
I'm sure in his heart of hearts, he's dissapointed in the Pontiff, even though he certainly seemed to champion the KoH every chance he got.
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Leak more... War with whom? - Rally to the defense of Avan?
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Sorry. Perhaps we should not post as in frenzy :-[
People should post with whatever frequency the wish and can. If one expect other to chime in, one might have to slow down. If that is not an issue I see no reason why one cannot type till the fingertips are bleeding.
Apologies for not being able to contribute to the, at times lively, debates. I hope my latest contribution can cover for the MOC for a little while at least. I try to keep up to date on what people are writing, but there's preciously little time for the me to type these days.
And sorry if my posts are a bit rambling. I need to hire an editor :-[
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Even you do a fine job. I hate to admit it but you do 8)
To KoH: Regarding religious approach to duty Wallac feels likewise - however he was utterly let down by several temples that saw it as their duty to get him out of office. Wallac had not the time to finely groom every little wanna-be pontiff and he certainly not did not want to give consessions left and right since he wrongly assumed that those present was as duty bound as himself. His person seemed to get in the way and rather than having CoT tear itself apart from within he decided to leave and resign.
Rather than feeling Wallac has turned his back on his duty, perhaps the Grand Maester should try to realize how much many others have neglected their supposedly duty to support CoT and even to word the lack of approval to WIT's illegal disturbing of the meeting.
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Kasper, we'll have to take this IC sometime.....as continuing here OOC would probably be inappropriate.
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Leak more... War with whom? - Rally to the defense of Avan?
Niels,
No war. Wallac Isilviere decided to resign as Pontiff perceiving the office to be impossible to hold due to active sabotage from some of the other temples. That is ofcause Wallacs version.
What remains is there was not exactly a friendly exchange of oppinions between IHH and WIT. WIT vetoed a vote of confidence called by IHH and it got rather technical. Even though WIT was not really in the right at that stage it got rather annoying and messy. At the end of it WIT called for a vote wether or not to turn in the special conclave session into a fullfledged Grand Conclave (also illegal) and then the Chamberlain (special guest invited by IHH) hinted it was possible to hold a Grand Conclave right here right now and that he found that CoT needed it.
WIT also wanted to have an election for Pontiff out of turn between IHH & HA (again illegally passing by NIT as next in line for Pontiff).
Wallac vehemently turned his back on it all and simply resigned from office.
Theres some that claim he cannot do so and is still Pontiff; that the Charter of CoT permit not a pontiff to resign without a new one elected; WIT even claim that Wallac never was Pontiff as he was not elected - Martin Royce was.
regardless it is one big mess and Wallac am not going to miss it one little bit. He been working his arse off and get nothing but ungratefull abuse from a group of temples that have decided in advance he should be taught a lesson. The conspirators solution to it all remains to be seen.
Well now he has been.
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I don't blame them really, wallac was an easy target !
I love this game!!
Bjorn, thank you for making me the LPA!!
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Lets hope the real enemy, like the Shadow, will make as easy targets as the righteous zealot Wallac Isilviere; he spared no one and I have a feeling neither will the Shadow - ofcause from a different perspective that is
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I don't blame them really, wallac was an easy target !
I love this game!!
Bjorn, thank you for making me the LPA!!
Thank yourself. All this intirgue would not be possible without you. Sure, men and Jon are cunning and devious; but not THAT cunning ;D
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Gray quoth: Actually this is a very good lesson. I am sure how well warned you were, but the Conclave is a collection of rivals, in many ways, Mhoried is the same.
Lies, all lied, only two of the main players in Mhoried have tried to assassinate Robhan in the past year.
Even quoth: And sorry if my posts are a bit rambling. I need to hire an editor
Really, I couldn't possibly hold that against anyone, not without being lynched.
Rather than feeling Wallac has turned his back on his duty, perhaps the Grand Maester should try to realize how much many others have neglected their supposedly duty to support CoT and even to word the lack of approval to WIT's illegal disturbing of the meeting.
Hmm, I went to bed last night after a last post (in the wrong thread but a post nonetheless) and came back to a resignation - please don't mistake inaction for lack of interest or support - the Aegis didn't have the chance to do anything.
Sigh, and now robbie might get stuck with the poisoned chalice - hopefully only for a season or two when the real grand conclave can go ahead. :'(
What we need is a ceremonial mace... I vote WIT to go Tarzan first! ::)
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Hierarch Toreas Griene takes the floor.
"Not only do you force the CoT to it's knees! Now you suggest to ignore the CoT treaty! Nay! It is the Reformist faction that holds the CoT until the next Grand Conclave! The Pontiff must come from their ranks."
To which Bjørn anwered:
The Archprelate merely smiles:
"I do not disagree with you, but even you old friend, must admit that with the current...situation between Boer and Avan, it is best if neither of us take up the mantle. And Narvelon...is too young...and besides the OIT just held the office.
No, Robhan is the only one who CAN lead us. I'm sure you'll agree."
Bjørn please note that Reformist consist of only two temples and neither is NIT; I believe Griene refered to Reformist fraction to hold the Pontiffs office. That mean IHH & ETN and by proxy IHH being leader of the fraction.
I know not if this is on purpose but if is not I would like to know how Wallac shall perceive NIT in future interactions with Griene
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The NIT is, as it has been, a staunch supporter of the IHH.
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However, they have been at odds under Royce's leadership, which led to the formation of the "True Reformation" faction ;D
But the NIT is actually stating that the IHH should keep the Pontifficate.
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I was talking in relative terms; compared to how the rest of the temples treat the Pontiff, then Griene is the IHH's very best friend...
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Well a few others have been rather nice as well
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if the OIT hadn't been at work it would have resisted the turn of events. can't we go back 12 hours?? despite some differences the OIT believes the decision should be reversed
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There's still plenty of time to do that. But which decision?
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Really Jon I dont want to be Pontiff with WIT's constant harrasment; you are very good at it but between that, hundres of mails, constant requests for special priviledges and the fact that it cost 6 GB a season AND as leader I damn well do the same I ask everyone else and then some.
With the current rules for vote, order of votes (or rahter lack of such a thing) and everal other unclarity I am actually rather sure this is on purpose by our esteemed DM's - but since I am not native english speaker it take some effort for me and when everyone in the CoT want a little piece of the Pontiff (or at least most do) I get rather wounded in the long run
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.....reversing the resignation
it will be quite a mess to clear up otherwise, who would want the WIT to get the upper hand (not I!)
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True but I can testify to you have not the upperhand as Pontiff. Ofcause WIT as pontiff now means IHH leave CoT and not just Wallac resigning
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Kasper, not only have you never held the upper hand, you probably never will. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean you won't ultimately WIN.
In RoE, nothing worthwhile is won easily. You will have to work for it, stay focused, and ultimately persevere to reach your goals.
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Huh?
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Translation:
"Kasper, du har aldrig haft fordelen, og vil sikkert heller aldrig få den. Ikke desto mindre betyder det ikke at du ikke kan vinde i sidste ende.
Intet er letkøbt eller vundet i RoE. Du skal arbejde for det, være fokuseret, og holde ud til det sidste for at nå dine mål."
I do believe Gray just caught the essence of RoE. If you think you're in trouble, you're probably doing something right ;D
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Reason not to have ETN run next Grand Conclave; the below moved from the CoT thread as per "request" of LPA ;)
[OOC: Because ETN have been without a player the two last seasons and just recently a player joined and having not yet participated in this wonderfull duel of wits; what a wonderfull task to be thrown into; taming the beasts of the CoT lol!]
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OOC: STOP THE OOC CRAP!! TAKE IT TO THE OOC BOARD!!
"I concur with the High Hierophant. Though I have other concerns as well, I do not want Anuire to believe that through the murder of a pontiff, the mantle of Pontiff shall pass easily from Haelynite-to-Haelynite or from Tradition-to-Tradition. This is only a precusor to events which we shall not desire for the CoT."
The LPA votes aye to the coming Grand Conclave.
OOC: I am not sure I understand what you mean regarding the mantle of pontiff. The High Hierophant expressed a wish that ETN held the chair during the comming Grand Conclave. Please help me understand
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OoC crap deleted. The Dragon looks forward to seeing another player get gobbled up.
But seriously, I think it's a great way of getting into the game. That doesn't mean anyone shouldn't use this for the greatest political effect possible.
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Regardless of our difference in oppinion lets try to wrap this one up real quick and reduce the amount of chit chat arguing etc. The session was started late by me as I thought the structure of CoT would be changed further than is just did and so hoped to save time not debating based on wrong facts. Well it was not and now with the shit hitting the fan reppeatedly we are running out of time.
lets smarten up and have it over and done with; Or Dm's perhaps give us a little extra time since Jon did enjoy himself so much as WIT having harrased Wallac over the last couple of months and having great fun ;)
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OoC crap deleted. The Dragon looks forward to seeing another player get gobbled up.
But seriously, I think it's a great way of getting into the game. That doesn't mean anyone shouldn't use this for the greatest political effect possible.
Jon seriously its a shockstart and believe me had I known what holding Pontiffs office meant, or just a tenth of it I had passed when offered IHH. I did not even knew there was a CoT let alone I was Pontiff; what fool I was. I have some fun since then though
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OoC crap deleted. The Dragon looks forward to seeing another player get gobbled up.
But seriously, I think it's a great way of getting into the game. That doesn't mean anyone shouldn't use this for the greatest political effect possible.
That is all very well but since I could not remove my post I changed the OOC to something entirely different IC. You deleted that and not OOC ???
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Don't blame me! I don't look when I'm eating...
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How am I to handle tithe to CoT in my upcomming DO? I assume I stop paying 6 GB since I am no longer Pontiff. Whats more I know not yet if troop upkeep instead of tithe is acceptable; I guess the trend is everyone pays as they want to or not only depending on their own honor - at least that what Andy indicated and seems also to be a big part of the reason I got some key temples rallied against me.
In short how do we handle CoT dragging out with no decision being made?
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The OoC isn't really the place to asking this question.
Do it IC, since technically - even if you may not want to - the IHH still holds the Pontifficate and are responsible for all questions of tithe.
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I had Caelan make the point on 'pay as your honour dictates' deliberately to avoid the ongoing wars Kasper got.
Face it, the WIT consider themselves above us all, and no Pontiff will ever make them pay their fair share or do anything they don't want to do as they see themselves as the only real 'Pontiff' with everyone else just a pretender keeping their seat warm - frankly short of starting a holy war and killing the Arch Prelate (don't tempt me, he's theoretically a vague ally) the Pontiff's role is going to be a nightmare with them around for anyone.
So Robhan's view is 'pay at least half, pay the rest if you have any respect for the Conclave. He's hoping that if he gets lumbered with the job then even the WIT won't whine over 3 lousy GB.
Of course, the fun will be when the Avan vs Boeruine war hots up, and the WIT starts getting some interesting choices on who to support - can the rest of us help break up the dominance of the north-west? Can we convince Brandon "bloodtheft" Boer to see the Arch Prelate as closer to the Avan family than the Green Knight? (People further than the GN being fairly irrelevant in the scheme of things as I doubt that Brandon is going to kill that particular Avan...)
The Conclave is one of the more active threads, and one of the louder ones, but its obviously been hell on Kasper.
Hmm, I need to check my budget, see how much closer to bankruptcy I'll get if I get stuck with it.
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but if, as the Arch Prelate alleges, while Pontiff, Wallac Isiliviere demanded the right to direct the internal dealings of the Western Imperial Temple, ordered them to open or close temples, reassigned staff under the Arch Prelate's charge, spent of the WITs treasury, or similar matters to justify the accusations made, then clearly we have misjudged him. Pray bring such evidence before us Arch Prelate that we might see the attempts of dominance that you have declared.
Lets avoid any confusion OOC at least. Wallac have never demanded the right to direct the internal dealings of WIT, ordered them to open or close temples, reassigned staff. It may be that Jon IC as WIT have claimed Wallac has done so but reality is he have not; not to WIT nor to anyone else
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The OoC isn't really the place to asking this question.
Do it IC, since technically - even if you may not want to - the IHH still holds the Pontifficate and are responsible for all questions of tithe.
Seriously you mean I shall ask the CoT about my DO lol!
If Isilviere is technically still Pontiff he has to pay 6 GB? I cannot see that he is anymore; there is to be a vote. The vote most likely say there will be a Grand Conclave and after having setled that vote CoT shall decide who will held Pontiffs chair untill and during Grand Conclave; that seems very unlikely to be Wallac. His closest ally in CoT, ETN, is not present and many friends have turned their back on him.
a snowball in hell have greater chance to survive than Wallac being Pontiff untill next Grand Conclave
"The WIT, CJS & EOM vote aye to the Grand Conclave."
This intentionel or EOM voting via WIT a mistake?
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I had Caelan make the point on 'pay as your honour dictates' deliberately to avoid the ongoing wars Kasper got.
Face it, the WIT consider themselves above us all, and no Pontiff will ever make them pay their fair share or do anything they don't want to do as they see themselves as the only real 'Pontiff' with everyone else just a pretender keeping their seat warm - frankly short of starting a holy war and killing the Arch Prelate (don't tempt me, he's theoretically a vague ally) the Pontiff's role is going to be a nightmare with them around for anyone.
So Robhan's view is 'pay at least half, pay the rest if you have any respect for the Conclave. He's hoping that if he gets lumbered with the job then even the WIT won't whine over 3 lousy GB.
Of course, the fun will be when the Avan vs Boeruine war hots up, and the WIT starts getting some interesting choices on who to support - can the rest of us help break up the dominance of the north-west? Can we convince Brandon "bloodtheft" Boer to see the Arch Prelate as closer to the Avan family than the Green Knight? (People further than the GN being fairly irrelevant in the scheme of things as I doubt that Brandon is going to kill that particular Avan...)
The Conclave is one of the more active threads, and one of the louder ones, but its obviously been hell on Kasper.
Hmm, I need to check my budget, see how much closer to bankruptcy I'll get if I get stuck with it.
That is an assumption that will keep the conflict rolling and tear the Conclave apart.
The WIT were an integral part of creating the Conclave, which neither the IHH nor the HA were. Both IHH and HA were bought with Pontifficates.
What the WIT wants is the Conclave to stick to what it is, not be some grand centralized organisation pooling all power in the hands of one man. And you can ridicule the size of the tithe all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that, as of now, the temples of Anuire, divided and wartorn Anuire, are paying gold that equals the income of a Barony to one man, one domain, one sphere of influence.
If that man acts erratic or doesn't show the proper respect to the myriad of conflicting interests, he will find out just how torn Anuire is. You haven't even begun to scratch the surface in this regard.
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OOC: STOP THE OOC CRAP!! TAKE IT TO THE OOC BOARD!!
"I concur with the High Hierophant. Though I have other concerns as well, I do not want Anuire to believe that through the murder of a pontiff, the mantle of Pontiff shall pass easily from Haelynite-to-Haelynite or from Tradition-to-Tradition. This is only a precusor to events which we shall not desire for the CoT."
The LPA votes aye to the coming Grand Conclave.
OOC: I am not sure I understand what you mean regarding the mantle of pontiff. The High Hierophant expressed a wish that ETN held the chair during the comming Grand Conclave. Please help me understand
With very little eloquence, she is saying that she does think that the murder of a pontiff, should result in the pontificate changing traditions, because it implies that one should kill the pontiff in order to get the pontificate to change to a particular tradition (which may be more favorable to the murderer, I assume).
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The OoC isn't really the place to asking this question.
Do it IC, since technically - even if you may not want to - the IHH still holds the Pontifficate and are responsible for all questions of tithe.
Seriously you mean I shall ask the CoT about my DO lol!
If Isilviere is technically still Pontiff he has to pay 6 GB? I cannot see that he is anymore; there is to be a vote. The vote most likely say there will be a Grand Conclave and after having setled that vote CoT shall decide who will held Pontiffs chair untill and during Grand Conclave; that seems very unlikely to be Wallac. His closest ally in CoT, ETN, is not present and many friends have turned their back on him.
a snowball in hell have greater chance to survive than Wallac being Pontiff untill next Grand Conclave
"The WIT, CJS & EOM vote aye to the Grand Conclave."
This intentionel or EOM voting via WIT a mistake?
EOM intentional. Player permission given while he's away.
You're mixing the person with the temple. Isilviere is not the total sum of the IHH.
The IHH is the Pontiff's temple, even if Wallac doesn't think he is the Pontiff. They are obligated by treaty to pay that tithe. Now you could make the claim that since your title has been placed in question, the IHH is just one of the Haelynic temples, but it does not allow for the general waiver of tithe.
A Grand Conclave will decide who holds the office of Pontiff from the point of the Grand Conclave.
The ETN is present.
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Quote from: DM Jon on Today at 20:49:44
The OoC isn't really the place to asking this question.
Do it IC, since technically - even if you may not want to - the IHH still holds the Pontifficate and are responsible for all questions of tithe.
Seriously you mean I shall ask the CoT about my DO lol!
If Isilviere is technically still Pontiff he has to pay 6 GB? I cannot see that he is anymore; there is to be a vote. The vote most likely say there will be a Grand Conclave and after having setled that vote CoT shall decide who will held Pontiffs chair untill and during Grand Conclave; that seems very unlikely to be Wallac. His closest ally in CoT, ETN, is not present and many friends have turned their back on him.
That is the whole point of the IC thread. Whether Wallac is 'technically' the pontiff is 100% a in-character decision/debate. Some people argue that he is still the pontiff, others argue that he never was. Asking people for their OOC opinion on these points kind of defeats the purpose of all of us taking on various roles of characters in the game. We probably have our personal opinions of what is right or wrong, but the interesting part is what the regents think, and argue about.
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OOC: STOP THE OOC CRAP!! TAKE IT TO THE OOC BOARD!!
"I concur with the High Hierophant. Though I have other concerns as well, I do not want Anuire to believe that through the murder of a pontiff, the mantle of Pontiff shall pass easily from Haelynite-to-Haelynite or from Tradition-to-Tradition. This is only a precusor to events which we shall not desire for the CoT."
The LPA votes aye to the coming Grand Conclave.
OOC: I am not sure I understand what you mean regarding the mantle of pontiff. The High Hierophant expressed a wish that ETN held the chair during the comming Grand Conclave. Please help me understand
With very little eloquence, she is saying that she does think that the murder of a pontiff, should result in the pontificate changing traditions, because it implies that one should kill the pontiff in order to get the pontificate to change to a particular tradition (which may be more favorable to the murderer, I assume).
Too true :)
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Quote from: DM Jon on Today at 20:49:44
The OoC isn't really the place to asking this question.
Do it IC, since technically - even if you may not want to - the IHH still holds the Pontifficate and are responsible for all questions of tithe.
Seriously you mean I shall ask the CoT about my DO lol!
If Isilviere is technically still Pontiff he has to pay 6 GB? I cannot see that he is anymore; there is to be a vote. The vote most likely say there will be a Grand Conclave and after having setled that vote CoT shall decide who will held Pontiffs chair untill and during Grand Conclave; that seems very unlikely to be Wallac. His closest ally in CoT, ETN, is not present and many friends have turned their back on him.
That is the whole point of the IC thread. Whether Wallac is 'technically' the pontiff is 100% a in-character decision/debate. Some people argue that he is still the pontiff, others argue that he never was. Asking people for their OOC opinion on these points kind of defeats the purpose of all of us taking on various roles of characters in the game. We probably have our personal opinions of what is right or wrong, but the interesting part is what the regents think, and argue about.
Thank you Even, this is exactly what I meant to say.
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The OoC isn't really the place to asking this question.
Do it IC, since technically - even if you may not want to - the IHH still holds the Pontifficate and are responsible for all questions of tithe.
Seriously you mean I shall ask the CoT about my DO lol!
If Isilviere is technically still Pontiff he has to pay 6 GB? I cannot see that he is anymore; there is to be a vote. The vote most likely say there will be a Grand Conclave and after having setled that vote CoT shall decide who will held Pontiffs chair untill and during Grand Conclave; that seems very unlikely to be Wallac. His closest ally in CoT, ETN, is not present and many friends have turned their back on him.
a snowball in hell have greater chance to survive than Wallac being Pontiff untill next Grand Conclave
"The WIT, CJS & EOM vote aye to the Grand Conclave."
This intentionel or EOM voting via WIT a mistake?
As for the DO, it should represent what your Domain does. If Wallac sincerely believes/feels that he is not the pontiff, he should stop paying the tithe. Or just pay the tithe for whatever position he feels he holds.
There's an awful lot of IC politicking that could go into just that simple statement. ;)
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The perception from a IHH point of view is that If someone not IHH hold the Pontiffs office untill the comming Grand Conclave, IHH wont pay more than any other Haelyn temple. On the other hand if Wallac is temporary hold Pontiffs office untill comming Grand Conclave that calls for the full tithe as Pontiff.
And I note I ommited a very important point in my original post: What do we do with DO if the CoT does not finish this S&C? I found that one to belong OOC - permission to delay deliver of DO for the temples involved?
Stupid that I removed it doing edits :-[
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If I am not mistaken theres 16 votes in CoT and thus 2/3 majority is reached with 11+ votes.
So far 10 have voted for Grand Conclave
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That is an assumption that will keep the conflict rolling and tear the Conclave apart.
Not really, based on the public forum stuff I saw Wallac basically said 'pay the tithe - if you want to pay in service I will decide if it satisfies the criteria' - which is squarely in his role - the WIT told him where to stick it - they would decide whether or not to pay. I saw zero respect from WIT ever to anyone. They were deliberately provocative, deliberately unreasonable, and generally acted like they were above everyone else - now that may be what they really think, they're a big temple that goes in for domination, but frankly with the WIT in the Conclave, acting as they are, there is no Conclave and the rest of us are wasting our time and money on it.
Now if they were refusing to pony up purely because they didn't think Wallac was Pontiff, and will show respect for an elected Pontiff going forward, then they have a slim excuse - the next Pontiff will find out either way and the Conclave likely stand or fall on the result.
What the WIT wants is the Conclave to stick to what it is, not be some grand centralized organisation pooling all power in the hands of one man.
I've seen nothing to suggest this as their view. They deliberately voided two key tenets of their side of the whole deal - pay the tithe, and 'show some respect for the position' - neither would have given them any inconvenience so it looks like a pure ego trip for them all the way. Whining that the Pontiff responded by treated them badly is hardly the point - any Pontiff would respond badly to a member who ignores their obligations.
If the WIT wanted to avoid 'the pontiff has the knights on a string' they could easily have proposed a '2 cardinals and pontiff must vote for the knights to send more than 'x' troops to war' rule - 2 is low enough to avoid any delay problems, but stops a potential lunatic pontiff. uite what other authority the Pontiff has beyond the moral has clearly passed me by, the WIT refused to even accept he could chair the meetings...
And you can ridicule the size of the tithe all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that, as of now, the temples of Anuire, divided and wartorn Anuire, are paying gold that equals the income of a Barony to one man, one domain, one sphere of influence.
Yes, the combined tithe is very chunky Jon; but individually, for each temple, its hardly overwhelming. Also it hardly goes to one man, it goes to 1 office, is watched by a) their domain b) the knights and c) all of us who will be able to figure out how much went to the knights. Also consider the purpose of the Conclave (at least from the Aegis viewpoint) - an army the equal of a barony is more the minimum for the purpose than the maximum... Now if Wallac had started sending the knight son his personal quests, and generally interfered in internal workings of members, then the WIT might have a point, but I saw nothing to suggest that he was.
Incidentally Caelan in particular has been flying some political points in the Conclave, particularly on this point - don't assume that I agree with everything my guys say ;)
If that man acts erratic or doesn't show the proper respect to the myriad of conflicting interests, he will find out just how torn Anuire is. You haven't even begun to scratch the surface in this regard.
Indeed, the WIT will find out - the IHH is not the only temple likely to leave if the WIT 'Thou shalt worship me as a god vermin' Arch-Prelate takes the Pontificate role - he is far guiltier of the accusations he is throwing than Wallac ever was.
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Let me quote you the exact reason why you are wrong, they have not told the Pontiff where to "stick it":
Dispatch to all temples of the Conclave.
The WIT ask that the Pontiff allow the tithe of the WIT and the CJS, + all vassals of the WIT (OoC: hereafter named, we'll be certain to inform you if there are ordinary temples who are not within the WIT sphere) that our tithe be used towards the army keeping guard on the Alamien and Tuornen border to the Five Peaks, from whence the undead still strike all Anuire.
(OoC: This obviously includes a detailed rundown of the WIT forces in question, I'll send you a detailed list asap)
The WIT will pay any and all tithe that the Pontiff righteously demands, only we ask this excemption with honour and with a strong sense of the duty that our constant vigilance demands.
Prelate Kharnmoien of the WIT
Obviously this statement completely drowned in a drawn out argument over the Pontiff's threat of war against any temple that would not pay it's tithe.
I say again; your assumptions are what will draw out this conflict.
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Jon that one post was drowned by the myriad of posts made by the Arch Prelate along the line outlined by Andy above. Really what stands is WIT have been going out of their way to make constant harrasment of Wallac Isilviere
Out of Character, I Kasper, have been rather unhappy holding Pontiffs office simply for the massive harrasment by WIT. I love this game and enjoy it; Holding the Pontiffs office I hate.
EDIT:
I have read through some of the old posts before and after the one Jon quote.
It only confirmed what I remembered; WIT is just as described by Andy above
The one well behaved post you pull and quote above here dont change my perception of this. WIT are allowed to be pricks but they have made me, Kasper, wishing never to hold Pontiffs office again and perhaps even leave CoT all together.
The post made right after the one you qoute, a post made in answer to HA answering your quoted post, ended like this:
We will not allow this Pontiff to believe he can declare war as he likes. His place lies in making decisions where our armies could be best used, not in money grubbing or acting the father of all Anuire.
I believe any remnisens of respect was removed once more going back to WIT standard modus operandi.
I was damned when I found out that the temple I had applied for held Pontiffs office; I knew not even of CoT at that time.
I drowned being on deep water knowing not really anything about how CoT worked, its history or even its rules. Slowly some of those things got fixed. Some got posted and something was told to me.
As a new player 3 months ago I say I was thrown to the lions and the fallout from that is the Grand Conclave next season.
And still the very basics of any organistation ability to hold meetings and make decisions is ommited from the CoT Charter
That could be the new pontiffs grand task; to fix some of the holes in CoT charter. And as I am now leaving Pontiffs office I ask that WIT harrasment is to be downplayed a lot. Sure it can be fun reading and I believe fun to write WIT rants but I am not sure the WIT harrasment contribute positively to the game by making the post of Pontiff the hotseat no-one wants to hold
Ok someone will not mind and can take the crap; me I have better things to do in m game :)
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I quite understand your point, however it is as it must be. Your personal feelings are your own and I would dear wish you kept them there, because you're mixing them into IC matters. Which means you're mixing business and pleasure.
Here's what I see the problem as:
Since you tried to strongarm the Conclave; declaration of war against temples not paying their tithe and such, you ran smack into a load of trouble. They tried to strongarm you back into what they thought was the Pontiff's place - a primus inter pares, first amongst equals. The HA supported you in your assumptions, restarted the fight and walked right into the crossfire.
The latest was your attempt at forcing the war tithe, stating that the temples appearing at the Conclave were to run any agendas by you before you would allow it and forging the KoH into a central Conclave army led by the Pontiff.
That was the reason why several temples, led by the WIT, decided to force the issue and attempt to get rid of you. Because they do not want that kind of Conclave.
It has always been a political matter, riddled with assumptions, fears and so on. I urge you all to read the history of the Catholic Pontifficate, if you want to see just how bad things can get. Indeed the current Popes are perhaps the most stable in several centuries, go back four links or so and you have the last assassinated Pope.
These matters are not fun and games, but deadly serious high politics.
Force against force in a continuous dance.
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Jon I was a new player remember? I was acting mostly in blindnes. If I have ever regretted a post it was the one with war. I spend like what felt to etternity to try to make amends for that one.
Interesting ever before making that stupid remark about war and before making anybody mad I invited WIT to help formulate my policy as Pontiff as part of a wish to make for a more stable CoT not changing policy major with every new Pontiff. I got completely ignored for that and other friendly remarks in general to CoT.
You where a real good help in all areas of entering game a new player but your playing of WIT vs the green newbie upstart soon-to-learn-to-behave-pontiff.
I send so many stupid questions and you patiently replied.
The playing of WIT, I perceived Jon as the psyckotic mugger and myself as easy game.
But I think I shall stop being part of this discusion because I really am quite frustrated and it end up that I cross the line
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I quite understand your point, however it is as it must be. Your personal feelings are your own and I would dear wish you kept them there, because you're mixing them into IC matters. Which means you're mixing business and pleasure.
Here's what I see the problem as:
Since you tried to strongarm the Conclave; declaration of war against temples not paying their tithe and such, you ran smack into a load of trouble. They tried to strongarm you back into what they thought was the Pontiff's place - a primus inter pares, first amongst equals. The HA supported you in your assumptions, restarted the fight and walked right into the crossfire.
The latest was your attempt at forcing the war tithe, stating that the temples appearing at the Conclave were to run any agendas by you before you would allow it and forging the KoH into a central Conclave army led by the Pontiff.
That was the reason why several temples, led by the WIT, decided to force the issue and attempt to get rid of you. Because they do not want that kind of Conclave.
It has always been a political matter, riddled with assumptions, fears and so on. I urge you all to read the history of the Catholic Pontifficate, if you want to see just how bad things can get. Indeed the current Popes are perhaps the most stable in several centuries, go back four links or so and you have the last assassinated Pope.
These matters are not fun and games, but deadly serious high politics.
Force against force in a continuous dance.
Having reread the post I ask to be considered for the next landed domain getting availeble. In the mean time I shall strive to keep IHH in shape
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You cannot cross the line with me, so don't worry about it. You can cross the line with the NPC's I play, as you have seen. Now your problem is you have no or very little distance between yourself and player character, so you try to figure out both me and NPC at the same time. Instead of separating the two.
And now you're stepping aside, worrying that you will cross the line? How can you cross the line more than likening me to a psychotic mugger? You're constantly "crossing the line" my good man, that's what makes you such a fabulous character. And I wouldn't change that if I could, but I, as the DM, would love to make life a lot easier for you. So I try to tell you how not to provoke the most powerful of the NPC temples. Indeed the most powerful temple in all of Anuire.
I have tried to get you to look at what the NPC's are actually saying behind all the bluff and bravado. Tried to get you to hear what they are hearing you say. And I will continue to try.
And maybe the WIT could have been less of a dick at the start, I admit. What's done is done.
However it wasn't completely unintentional. The temples had to be shown as what they are, deeply affected by 500 years or more of separation and conflict. And you as players had no way of knowing that - or indeed showing that - without getting as hard as possible an entry into the Conclave - IF you put a foot wrong. Like threatening war against the temples - no matter the context.
Now all the other stuff aside ain't as important compared to this: The CoT isn't supposed to survive on it's own. It was never in the cards that it would. Actually it was very dependent on the character of the Pontiff. Could he keep it together? Contrary to what you might think, Isilviere actually has been able to keep it together. Because the temples don't mind a strong leader, they just don't want a TOO strong leader.
Now I suggest you remember that it's your own responsibility to make things fun, even when it seems like it's not. So don't take this or anything personal, take it as a huge challenge that is stacked against you.
RoE isn't for the faint of heart, RoE I saw players leaving left right and centre because they got outcompeted by others or the game turned against them.
Those who garnered the greatest respect were those who fought to the last - even after loosing. Some of them even won.
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Having reread the post I ask to be considered for the next landed domain getting availeble. In the mean time I shall strive to keep IHH in shape
It shall be done as you wish.
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You cannot cross the line with me, so don't worry about it. You can cross the line with the NPC's I play, as you have seen. Now your problem is you have no or very little distance between yourself and player character, so you try to figure out both me and NPC at the same time. Instead of separating the two.
And now you're stepping aside, worrying that you will cross the line? How can you cross the line more than likening me to a psychotic mugger? You're constantly "crossing the line" my good man, that's what makes you such a fabulous character. And I wouldn't change that if I could, but I, as the DM, would love to make life a lot easier for you. So I try to tell you how not to provoke the most powerful of the NPC temples. Indeed the most powerful temple in all of Anuire.
I have tried to get you to look at what the NPC's are actually saying behind all the bluff and bravado. Tried to get you to hear what they are hearing you say. And I will continue to try.
And maybe the WIT could have been less of a dick at the start, I admit. What's done is done.
However it wasn't completely unintentional. The temples had to be shown as what they are, deeply affected by 500 years or more of separation and conflict. And you as players had no way of knowing that - or indeed showing that - without getting as hard as possible an entry into the Conclave - IF you put a foot wrong. Like threatening war against the temples - no matter the context.
Now all the other stuff aside ain't as important compared to this: The CoT isn't supposed to survive on it's own. It was never in the cards that it would. Actually it was very dependent on the character of the Pontiff. Could he keep it together? Contrary to what you might think, Isilviere actually has been able to keep it together. Because the temples don't mind a strong leader, they just don't want a TOO strong leader.
Now I suggest you remember that it's your own responsibility to make things fun, even when it seems like it's not. So don't take this or anything personal, take it as a huge challenge that is stacked against you.
RoE isn't for the faint of heart, RoE I saw players leaving left right and centre because they got outcompeted by others or the game turned against them.
Those who garnered the greatest respect were those who fought to the last - even after loosing. Some of them even won.
I wish I had read that post before making my first post as Pontiff
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Yeah, but I didn't know this back then either ;D
Just take it from here, and if a noble realm opens up - which I might add it doesn't look like will happen anytime soon - you get first pick. You can make that decision when you need to cross that river.
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Yes I dont expect it to happen anytime soon. Long term I think I would have more fun but untill then I will roam Anuire as Wallac Isilviere
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Let me quote you the exact reason why you are wrong, they have not told the Pontiff where to "stick it":
Dispatch to all temples of the Conclave.
The WIT ask that the Pontiff allow the tithe of the WIT and the CJS, + all vassals of the WIT (OoC: hereafter named, we'll be certain to inform you if there are ordinary temples who are not within the WIT sphere) that our tithe be used towards the army keeping guard on the Alamien and Tuornen border to the Five Peaks, from whence the undead still strike all Anuire.
(OoC: This obviously includes a detailed rundown of the WIT forces in question, I'll send you a detailed list asap)
The WIT will pay any and all tithe that the Pontiff righteously demands, only we ask this excemption with honour and with a strong sense of the duty that our constant vigilance demands.
Prelate Kharnmoien of the WIT
Obviously this statement completely drowned in a drawn out argument over the Pontiff's threat of war against any temple that would not pay it's tithe.
I say again; your assumptions are what will draw out this conflict.
That particular quote was not drowned out - it was exactly the one which told the Pontiff where to stick it in Robbie view .
Let me translate as Robbie heard.
We are all for paying the tithe - we signed the charter so we have to.
But we aren't going to. We are going to pay for the troops we would support anyway, place them where we want them to defend our interests and ours alone, and we aren't going to pay a penny to the Conclave.
So Robbie sees it as: The WIT tried to strongarm the Pontiff into waiving the tithe for the WIT and every single temple under it - He said no.
They refused to negotiate a settlement of half, quarter, whatever - they refused to pay a penny. Thus the constant arguments and pain.
If they'd negotiated, explained their need, the benefits to other people, and he'd been obdurate, then the WIT might have got robbie's sympathy, but they didn't. They just demanded...
Now certainly Wallac trying to push for the war tithe in that atmosphere was going to be tough, and I expected the WIT to throw a strop, but given the long time lag between mustering and training it wasn't unsurprising - I saw it as a stalking horse motion - expected to fail but raised so that in a few seasons he could say 'see where we are, we must act this time...'
I see the real issue between WIT and IHH (and HA) as totally opposing views of what the Conclave is for.
HA saw the Knights as core to the Conclave, a single unifed force unaligned with any particular temple who could thus act with relative impunity. As such paying the tithe was absolutely necessary, simply paying for your own troops, particular in WITs manner where they were not even nominally placed at the disposal of the Conclave, was a direct attack on the entire point of the Conclave. Frankly a simple discussion group is of no interest to the Aegis and the glory of being Pontiff at best a distraction from their purpose so neither is given any importance, which pretty much leaves the knights, and maybe the ability to provide a united front to the nobility.
The WIT, I think, see the knights as at best a distraction, they are big, they are rich, they have their own large powerful army - and the knights are at best a rival - worse the knights are right next door. So they want to avoid paying the tithe at all costs as it supports the knights (bad as a nearby rival is made stronger) and reduces their own forces (also bad as they lose influence locally). To them the main point of the Conclave was presumably the discussion group - so that they could influence through diplomacy all temples across Anuire, make best use of the Pontiff role (smaller temples are less able to capitalise on advantage, with their vassals they would sweep up each time it came around to them) and so on.
Now if the Conclave had voted to change the tithe rules, agreed to maintain only a small force of KoH, etc, HA would have been fully in support of the WIT's position - but coming from the 'we have agreed to pay the tithe unless the Pontiff says otherwise' the WITs view was untenable to Robbie as it simply broke the treaty.
The interesting question is, can we agree on what the Conclave is for? What the Knights are for? Unless we can, then we can't agree the size of the tithe, or the conditions of payment...
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The OIT's view was quite similar to the IHH's in what the Conclave should be for and how central the KoH should be to all conclave military matters, but it all went went south with the Pontiffs took a bullying approach with the OIT which only wanted to know what was going on and was effectively told to mind its business and agree to what the boss said. Until then many thinngs seemed to be agreed. I'm not saying there was anything wrong with the approach, how the Pontiff approached it actually made it quite an interesting challenge. But looking back the eventual outcome seems less of a surprise. However I have a great deal of sympathy with anyone taking on this position before a turn may come my way, I dread to think what a hash I may have made of it!
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For what it is worth I intended not to bully OIT; rl time constrains combined with stress of the sheer overwhelming numbers of issues/negotiaons as Pontiff may have made me far more blunt than called for.
I shared the vision for purpose of CoT with HA btw
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Yeah, rl 'I need to finish this post in 2 minutes' and 'crap, I'll have to look at that at the weekend' can cause conflict - you don't get the time to soften the words, respond at the wrong time, etc.
But then, our PCs are likely busy people too, so sometimes that may be a very accurate way of representing them :D
Anyway, I usually try and figure out what people mean, and pay attention to how they have said it - unless of course I want to 'be provoked' into a fight...
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Seems like an opportunity for a fresh start all round - if we want to take it!
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I figure that a big conclave in a few seasons would be ideal - see if we have compatible ideas of the Conclave, or whether we need two - one for the WIT and other introvert domain, then a 'coalition of the willing' Conclave for temples that want to help all of Anuire. Hmm, I bet they WIT'd love that - but who would be in which I wonder... Somehow I doubt we wil have the luxury of time though!
Sigh, I'd hoped that the WIT was hitting major internal shit from ignoring the Conclave treaty requirements and generally bullying and picking fights trashing their reputation, but if the domain sees the Conclave as a problem as Jon indicates then they have no internal constraints and can just keep on hitting the Conclave until it breaks down into the one they want.
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I will be interested in a CoT of the willing. Ofcause working closely with the rest of CoT but unhindred by those that prefer CoT to be a discusion forum only.
Perhaps that is the way to go.
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You could go for 'inner' and 'outer' tiers - trouble is that in any such matter, the WIT will demand a seat at the 'top table' - and still refuse to pay for it. Plus you then get a free-rider problem.
Jon's pointed out that without the WIT and vassals the Conclave loses much of its kudos, which is certainly true to a point - but a paralysed Conclave is little better - and a Conclave covered 'everywhere else' is something that the WIT should actually very much want to join - what would it say of them that they refuse to take part?
I may try floating some motions to get some agreement - say agreeing the scope and role of the knights so that we all agree the total tithe required, and can then agree a tithe that everyone pays. Trouble is I'm not sure that we can get agreement on it given the vehemence - the WIT isn't the only church that wants the Knights disbanded / reduced substantially...
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Then simply make a invitation only CoT of the willing. Goes without saying that you simply dont invite WIT. Regular CoT can then work as it does now dominated by WIT and doing good work within that framework.
Then those that want CoT to work actively and not just as a forum can try to change the Charter of CoT from within stopping the holes in the charter and trying to make for better defininations of the decision making process, Speaker role (Pontiff should be Speaker as I see it) etc.
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Any meeting needs someone to chair it - this can either be the Pontiff or a conclave official of some sorts. Alternatively you could have the next church to take the role supply the speaker to call 'order', agree to put forth motions, count votes, etc. Share the joy...
As for excluding WIT, I figure they can say 'we didn't recognise Wallac Isiliviere as Pontiff, so didn't recognise his authority under the charter to decide what constituted a tithe, lacking any Pontiff we decided for ourselves' - they are big enough to be allowed to get away with it, but if the Conclave elects a new Pontiff they lose the excuse.
But the next pontiff will probably lower the tithe, or allow it to be part paid (allowing full payment in service leaves the knights very vulnerable - if we all did it for a season or two they'd collapse), the WIT then either pony up or cease to be members by default. The rest of us then have to vote on the effect of a default - suspension, ejection, public humiliation by announcing their expulsion? Hmm, I foresee consequences whichever way...
Robhan's view is if the Conclave knuckles down and cuts the tithe significantly to force the knights to shrink into impotence, he will ask a 'band of the willing' to make up as much of the shortfall as possible, of course that might impact on the Grand Maester's threat assessment, but then, those not paying him clearly have the means to defend themselves...