Author Topic: Manors and a court idea  (Read 1147 times)

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Offline X-Endier & KoH/GdN (Joe)

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Manors and a court idea
« on: January 26, 2009, 07:24:26 pm »
Manors:
The more I think about manors, the more they seem like they should represent law holdings. It seems their purpose was to provide more income to landed regents who suffered from ROE's realm fragmentation (so the various counts, dukes and barons could still afford to hold court)

Fundamentally, the guy with the sword and the chainmail with the 2 sons dressed likewise, who had 10-20 guys in leather who could help him sometimes, they were the law in Medieval Europe, and that's what a manor represents now too.  Redundant.  Return province income to province owner and the need for manors is gone.

Urbanization Slider
Each province should have a slider from 0 to 13 of how urbanized it is.  The slider max should be capped by the province level.  Most small provinces would be 0.  The maximum manor level should be reduced by this number if manors are in play in the game.  How do you have huge tracts of farmland in Anuire city?  I mean, its like, 10x10 miles max, compare that to the vast farmlands of Calrie.  How can agriculture in Anuire city compete with Calrie?  It can't, so you have to abstract that the Anuire city manor represents something else...but if its not Knights with tenants(or serfs) and its an income earner and it isn't a church, isn't it a guild?

If you instead use idea 1, or core BR, where there are no manors, as the slider advances up, it should enhance guild income, perhaps by 5 or 10% per point of urbanization.  In medieval europe, it was very hard for landed nobility to rule over urban populations.  Enhancing the guild income this way would help reflect that, and help explain why Endier is ruled by a Guilder (in BR vanilla). 

Court Costs
Rather then be a generic (5) or (8), court costs could be specific,
for instance
Courtier budget: Helps with diplomacy, dispatches
Administration Budget: Helps with Rule, Create Holding
Military Budget: Helps with training, mustering, allows military actions
Lavishness budget: Earns prestige

So, as a 5 court at Endier, being the KoH, I might be Courtier:1, Administration:2, Military:2, Lavishness:0
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Offline X-Points East

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Re: Manors
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2009, 09:10:53 pm »

Manors:
The more I think about manors, the more they seem like they should represent law holdings. It seems their purpose was to provide more income to landed regents who suffered from ROE's realm fragmentation (so the various counts, dukes and barons could still afford to hold court)

Fundamentally, the guy with the sword and the chainmail with the 2 sons dressed likewise, who had 10-20 guys in leather who could help him sometimes, they were the law in Medieval Europe, and that's what a manor represents now too.  Redundant.  Return province income to province owner and the need for manors is gone.

Urbanization Slider
Each province should have a slider from 0 to 13 of how urbanized it is.  The slider max should be capped by the province level.  Most small provinces would be 0.  The maximum manor level should be reduced by this number if manors are in play in the game.  How do you have huge tracts of farmland in Anuire city?  I mean, its like, 10x10 miles max, compare that to the vast farmlands of Calrie.  How can agriculture in Anuire city compete with Calrie?  It can't, so you have to abstract that the Anuire city manor represents something else...but if its not Knights with tenants(or serfs) and its an income earner and it isn't a church, isn't it a guild?

If you instead use idea 1, or core BR, where there are no manors, as the slider advances up, it should enhance guild income, perhaps by 5 or 10% per point of urbanization.  In medieval europe, it was very hard for landed nobility to rule over urban populations.  Enhancing the guild income this way would help reflect that, and help explain why Endier is ruled by a Guilder (in BR vanilla).

OoC:

Regent Guide quote:  "Manors need not only represent agriculture, but could also be mining interests, hunting and fishing rights, or any other money making venture that is primarily tied to the land, rather than the industrious efforts that are the province of guild holdings."

Regent Guide quote:  "In Khinasi lands, manors either represent tribal rights or control of certain aspects of a city-state’s urban population."


Offline X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)

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Re: Manors and a court idea
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 09:22:10 pm »
The question here is whether these improve the game or simply model medieval Europe (which Anuire is based on, not modeled after) more closely.  Much as I'd like to increase guild incomes, I don't think that would help game balance at all, and I don't see a need to implement a style change like that for historical accuracy.

We already have 6 different fields of expenditures (Court, Domain, Army, Navy, Fortifications, Actions) - is there a compelling reason to break one of them up into multiple additional numbers to be tracked?  Certainly, realms are oriented more towards one aspect or another, but the Court cost simply represents the funds put towards running the domain - the regent's actions make it clear where those funds are going. 

Manors do, I agree, overlap with the other holdings in several situations.  That can create some issues defining what a given manor represents, but even in provinces like Ilien, the vast majority of the province is farms and fields, not city.  In Ilien, almost every inch of land (aside from the protected Erebannien) is worked, providing space for manor holdings to be present.  The city of Anuire is a special case, but there's certainly things they could represent there too with a little thought.

Moreover, from a game balance perspective, manors serve a purpose in RoE by providing a holding for landed regents in addition to law holdings.  The battles over law holdings are EXTREMELY fierce - manors give a bit more wiggle room, and something that the primary law holder can bestow on his subordinates without losing his authority over the province's doings.  Unlike province ownership, they can be divided up amongst holders, and represent a degree of noble status as well as simply ownership of land.  I think they make life a lot easier for the landed/law regents.

Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: Manors and a court idea
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 09:43:07 pm »
A law holding can represent the right to levy customs duties, bandit raiding holdings, etc, etc - a whole slew of things positive and negative, so I wouldn't confuse it with ownership of farms and the like.

Province level income is also a taxation point, but also represents the ability of the ruler to demand service.  Manors by contrast are 'produce from the land' and distinct from any concept of taxation.

The problem with Anuire City is that it has no surrounding province, a city of 100,000 does not, in fact, cover much area in a province (think about the size of a small local town) - there is plenty of arable land around, whether the province is 20x20=400 square miles, or 50x50=2500 square miles... 


For example if the city covered a 2.5 mile radius it has a land area of only 20 square miles - 5% of the province if provinces are 20x20, far less if the provinces are larger (which I think they are in RoE).
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Offline X-MOC/Leman States (Even)

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Re: Manors and a court idea
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2009, 08:40:55 am »
The problem with Anuire City is that it has no surrounding province, a city of 100,000 does not, in fact, cover much area in a province (think about the size of a small local town) - there is plenty of arable land around, whether the province is 20x20=400 square miles, or 50x50=2500 square miles... 

For example if the city covered a 2.5 mile radius it has a land area of only 20 square miles - 5% of the province if provinces are 20x20, far less if the provinces are larger (which I think they are in RoE).

That is a problem with the city in the original setting material. In RoE the Imperial City is located in the normally sized province of Anuire.
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Offline X-MOC/Leman States (Even)

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Re: Manors and a court idea
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2009, 08:45:14 am »
Manors:
Urbanization Slider
Each province should have a slider from 0 to 13 of how urbanized it is.  The slider max should be capped by the province level.  Most small provinces would be 0.  The maximum manor level should be reduced by this number if manors are in play in the game.  How do you have huge tracts of farmland in Anuire city?  I mean, its like, 10x10 miles max, compare that to the vast farmlands of Calrie.  How can agriculture in Anuire city compete with Calrie?  It can't, so you have to abstract that the Anuire city manor represents something else...but if its not Knights with tenants(or serfs) and its an income earner and it isn't a church, isn't it a guild?

That sounds like province levels to me. As the province becomes more populated, more villages and towns appear, and it becomes more urbanized.
 As mentioned in my previous post, the Imperial City is located in a normal size province.

E
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