Author Topic: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang  (Read 3211 times)

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Offline X-Points East

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Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« on: August 30, 2013, 01:00:53 pm »

OoC:

Suggestion:

CONSCRIPTS

Levy
     In addition to maintaining a professional body of soldiers (musters), rulers can also call up vast numbers of untrained men, if the situation warrants it. Levies are created using the conscript (army) action.
     The levy is made up of common people:—peasants, craftsmen, paupers, and so on. They have little or no military experience and generally poor equipment (often improvised from farming tools or other nonmilitary equipment).

Leidang
     The naval equivalent of the levy is called the leidang (after the Rjurik term for it), which is created using the conscript (navy) action.
     In Anuire the leidang typically takes the form of merchantmen (smaller and less well maintained than their military equivalents) commandeered into military service. Although not as effective as race-built warships, they can provide much needed numbers in a pinch.
     The leidang may only be raised in provinces with coasts and ports:—provinces with rivers but without coasts do not qualify.

Cost, Time, and Province Level

Levy
     The conscript (army) action creates a number of army units, at maximum equal to province level. It is possible to create less than the maximum number of units.
     All conscripted units are free and normally available for action after four weeks.
     For each conscripted unit, there is a –2 penalty to province growth. This is a representation of lost assets and productivity. If you disband a conscripted unit at a later date, you can gain half of the lost growth back (i.e., +1 province growth per unit disbanded successfully).
     The conscript (army) action can be attempted multiple times per turn per province. Apply the effects of each use of the action separately.
     Rushing Conscription: It is possible to rush conscription. You might want to use this option if you are suddenly attacked and if your provinces are about to be overrun. Rushed conscripts are available for action after one week; but all units thus conscripted will be raw levy.
     Disrupting Conscription: Enemy units, that occupy a province, will disrupt the formation of army conscripts. Conscripts, that are disrupted, are assumed to have been disbanded.

Leidang
     The conscript (navy) action creates a single navy ship.
     All conscripted ships are free and normally available for action after four weeks.
     For each conscripted light ship, there is a –4 penalty to province growth; for each conscripted medium ship, a –8 penalty. This is a representation of lost assets and productivity. If you disband a conscripted ship at a later date, you can gain half of the lost growth back (i.e., +2 province growth per light ship disbanded successfully; +4 province growth per medium ship).
     The conscript (navy) action can be attempted multiple times per turn per province. Apply the effects of each use of the action separately.
     Rushing Conscription: It is possible to rush conscription. You might want to use this option if you are suddenly attacked. Rushed conscripts are available for action after one week; but all ships thus conscripted will be light vessels with raw crews.
     Disrupting Conscription: Enemy ships, that occupy a province’s sea area, will disrupt the formation of navy conscripts. Conscripts, that are disrupted, are assumed to have been disbanded.

Prerequisites

Levy
     There are two conditions, that limit the raising of army conscripts.
     Province Ruler: Only the province ruler (or one empowered by the ruler through diplomacy – his liege for instance) can conscript (army).
     Manors: Province rulers, who do not fully control the manors of a province, may not raise the full number of army conscripts. Each level of manor holding allows the calling of 1 conscripted unit per conscript (army) action. Other manor holders can make arrangements via diplomacy to allow the use of their manor holdings for the purpose of conscript (army).
     Example: The count of a province {10} wishes to conscript (army). He has a manor {3} therein and, so, may only raise up to 3 units each time, that he employs the action. If, via diplomacy, he should gain the manorial support of his two vassals (each of whom possesses a manor {2} in the province), he could then raise up to 7 units of conscripts per action, instead.

Leidang
     There are two conditions, that limit the raising of navy conscripts.
     Province Ruler: Only the province ruler (or one empowered by the ruler through diplomacy – his liege for instance) can conscript (navy).
     Guilds: Province rulers, who do not fully control the guilds of a province, may not raise the full number of navy conscripts. Each level of guild holding allows the calling of 1 conscripted ship total (not 1 ship per action). Other guild holders can make arrangements via diplomacy to allow use of their guild holdings for the purpose of conscript (navy).

Unit/Ship Types

Levy
     Not all conscripts need be untrained and unarmored peasants, armed with nothing but farming implements. Any realm with a sizable army will also have a pool of former veterans, who can be called upon to defend the realm if need be. Some rulers require that some or all commoners train with one or more weapons and armor and that they attend unit drills on a regular basis. In game terms, this means that the basic levy unit may be replaced with other (more capable) unit types.
     Civilized Default: When using the conscript (army) action for the first time in a province during a twelve-month span, the ruler of a civilized realm gets able militia; the second time, able levy; the third and subsequent times, green levy.
     Example: The ruler of a civilized province {4}, who controls a manor {4} therein, decides to conscript (army). The first conscription consists of 4 fairly experienced, able militia – units of men that have both some military training and decent equipment. The second conscription consists of 4 able levy – strong and fit peasant lads, reluctantly forced to fight a war without proper weapons or armor. After that, conscriptions in the province mostly consist of old men, young boys, and those otherwise not normally fit for military duty – until the twelve-month span is over.
     Special: Some realms have special rules governing conscript (army).

Leidang
     When employing conscript (navy), province level is a significant factor in determining ship type.

  • Province {1-3} (with port): On the first conscription of leidang in a twelve-month span, you get a light ship with able crew; on subsequent occasions, a light ship with green crew.
  • Province {4-6}: On the first conscription of leidang in a twelve-month span, you get a medium warship/merchantman with able crew; on the second, a light vessel with able crew; on subsequent occasions, a light ship with green crew.
  • Province {7-9}: On the first two conscriptions of leidang in a twelve-month span, you get a medium warship/merchantman with able crew; on the third, a light ship with able crew; on subsequent occasions, a light ship with green crew.
  • Province {10+}: On the first three conscriptions of leidang in a twelve-month span, you get a medium warship/merchantman with able crew; on the fourth, a light ship with able crew; on subsequent occasions, a light ship with green crew.
     However, guild level is also a significant factor. For the purposes of conscript (navy), a domain must be able to call upon two levels of guild in order to access one medium vessel; four levels, to access two medium vessels; and six levels, to access three medium vessels.  Should a domain be unable to call upon sufficient guild levels, a light vessel with able crew may be conscripted instead of a medium one.
     Example: The ruler of a province {8} may call upon three guild levels for the purposes of conscript (navy), as per diplomatic treaty with his royal guild.  The first conscription yields him a medium vessel with able crew; the second, a light vessel with able crew; and the third, a light vessel with able crew. Were he able to call upon a fourth guild level, the second conscription would instead yield him a medium vessel with able crew; and he would be able to impress a fourth vessel (light, with green crew).
     Conscripted ships suffer –2 penalties to attack, defense, and seaworthiness, to account for their lack of weapons and  their lighter civilian crews. The impressed ships are suitable to the region/province, in which they are conscripted.
     Special: Some realms have special rules governing conscript (navy).

Prosperity

Levy
     In addition to the manpower loss (negative growth), the province’s inhabitants will not be very happy about the prospect of their loved ones going to war.
     Each time the levy is called a –1 modifier is applied to prosperity. The modifier is applied regardless of how many units are being raised.

Leidang
     In addition to the economic disruption (negative growth), the province’s inhabitants will not be very happy about the prospect of their loved ones going to war.
     Each time the leidang is called a –1 modifier is applied to prosperity.

Upkeep

Levy
     Conscripted units require upkeep as listed for unit type, except on the turn of activation when they are assumed to have taken provisions with them from home. These supplies can be stretched out for 2 turns, giving the conscripted unit half supply on the turn of activation and the following turn.

Leidang
     Conscripted ships require upkeep equal to standard ships (no matter their inferior quality), except on the turn of activation when they are assumed to be stocked with existing provisions. These supplies can be stretched out for 2 turns, giving the conscripted ship half supply on the turn of activation and the following turn.

Disbanding

Levy
     When you disband conscripts, they go back to their homes and take up their ordinary work again.
     Disbanding army conscripts gives a +1 bonus to province growth per unit disbanded. A conscripted unit can normally only contribute growth to its home province; you may not use your levy to relocate people, unless specifically allowed by the DM.
     A failure on the disband action means that the men do not get back but instead settle somewhere else, get killed, or take up brigandage; the unit is removed from your roster but does not contribute to province growth.
     You should disband your conscripts near their home – disbanding a conscripted unit outside its home province incurs a +10 DDC modifier to the disband action. If, however, you successfully disband the conscripts somewhere else, the growth bonus is still applied to their home province, as the men manage to get back home on their own.
     You are not obliged to disband your conscripts; as long as you pay upkeep, the units continue to function normally. Most conscripted units are, however, of pretty poor quality and as such not really worth keeping around when they are no longer needed.

Leidang
     When you disband conscripts, they go back to their homes and take up their ordinary work again.
     Disbanding navy conscripts gives a +2 bonus to province growth per light ship disbanded and a +4 bonus, per medium ship disbanded. A conscripted ship can normally only contribute growth to its home province; you may not use your leidang to relocate people, unless specifically allowed by the DM.
     A failure on the disband action means that the men do not get back but instead settle somewhere else, get killed, or take up piracy; the ship is removed from your roster but does not contribute to province growth.
     You should disband your conscripts near their home – disbanding a conscripted ship outside its home province incurs a +10 DDC modifier to the disband action. If, however, you successfully disband the conscripts somewhere else, the growth bonus is still applied to their home province, as the men manage to get back home on their own.
     You are not obliged to disband your conscripts; as long as you pay upkeep, the ships continue to function normally. Most conscripted ships are, however, of pretty poor quality and as such not really worth keeping around when they are no longer needed.


Offline X-Points East

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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2013, 10:07:02 pm »

OoC:

Suggestion:

Conscript (Army, Navy) [Military; Court]
Army
     A domain calls on the common people living in a realm to arm themselves and join its army.  Normally, only landed regents can raise army conscripts (also known as the levy).
     Type:  Court.
     Special – Conscript may be conducted as a free action, in conjunction with wage war.
     Cost:  None.
     Difficulty:  5.
     DDC Modifiers:  Stability; Court; Prosperity.
     Special – Add 5 to DDC when raising the levy more than once per turn.
     Special – Add 5 to DDC when raising the levy in a second season during a twelve-month span.  Add 10 to DDC when raising the levy in a third or fourth season during a twelve-month span.
     DAC Modifiers:  Stability; Court; Prosperity.
     Influence:  Yes.
     Restrictions:  No take 20.
     Each use of the action allows the levy to be raised once within a single province.
     Check:  A number of units (up to the number of manor levels, upon which a domain can call) is conscripted.  Conscripted units are immediately ready for action (on the same turn).
     Each time the levy is raised, there is a –1 prosperity penalty.
     Conscript (army) causes 2 GB of negative growth per conscripted unit.
     Failure:  The levy does not form, but the associated penalty to prosperity (but not to province growth) still applies.  On an extraordinary failure, there is also some form of negative event:—brigandage from deserted levy, a small rebellion, etc.
     Retry:  If the levy fails to form, a domain may not try to conscript (army) in the same province again in the current turn, but there is no penalty for trying again on a later turn.
Navy
     The naval equivalent of the levy is called the leidang.  Normally, only landed regents can raise navy conscripts.
     Check:  A ship (provided that a domain can call upon a guild level) is conscripted.  Conscripted ships are immediately ready for action (on the same turn).
     Each time the leidang is raised, there is a –1 prosperity penalty.
     Conscript (navy) causes 4 GB of negative growth per light ship and 8 GB of negative growth per medium ship.


Offline Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)

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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2013, 12:25:30 am »
IMO this brings nothing good to the game.

It make landed rulers dependent on guild in the same way they are dependent on manors, and will lead to national guilds in coastal provinces that are controlled directly or by vassalage by the landed ruler. And it will potentially bring more ships into the game once the landed rulers have control of the guilds.

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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2013, 12:54:39 am »
yeah, I don't really see the point either. I also wonder why ships cause so much greater a penalty to growth, that doesn't make any sense.
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Offline Yggdrasil (DM Andy)

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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2013, 11:35:51 am »
The argument that I'd expect is that having a merchant navy, or seizing ships in time of need, is something that was done - maintaining large navies that did nothing in peace was simply a way to empty the treasury.

I'd consider though changing the ships penalty, by making it effectively reduce the level of the guild holding and perhaps morale - those ships were fishing, trading, etc before they got pressed into service so there should be a downside.

As an alternative you could however say that coastal provinces have a choice when a levy is raised between raising troops or ships - that would keep it simple, although in practice you'd need to create a levy-equivalent ship unit.
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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2013, 04:35:15 pm »
Well that argument wouldn't hold any water to me, there are more people being pressed when raising units of levy than there are when pressing a few ships. And why hurt the guilds instead of trade?
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Offline Yggdrasil (DM Andy)

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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2013, 08:42:13 pm »
Well that argument wouldn't hold any water to me, there are more people being pressed when raising units of levy than there are when pressing a few ships. And why hurt the guilds instead of trade?

The overall province impact should still be pervasive even if the numbers directly involved were smaller - in a coastal province I'd expect that every ship supports a lot of people on land, and if the ships gone the trade, fishing, etc is gone, so mechanically the province should suffer in a similar way, even though people are less "gone" than "idle" compared to raising a levy.  Given the hit on guild/trade though overall I'd expect the province hit to be lower than with a levy - but it wouldn't be non-existent.

Hitting trade holdings would probably make more sense than guild, under 2e BR rules the trade routes had to be carried on ships so they were automatically hit by a seizure - and in Rjurik Winds I captured ships and promptly put them to work on trade routes so it worked in reverse too.
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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2013, 10:02:50 pm »
I honestly see no reason why there needs to be any difference between the two. A -2 hit on growth and the -1 on Prosperity are sufficient.
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Offline X-CJS/Ruormad Coumain (Tristan)

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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2013, 11:53:01 pm »
If you look at the historical context of a naval levy, it was in place of taxation, and in most locations where it was used it was phased out when taxation systems where implemented (the common defence paid by taxation was more effective).

It may be a better option to look at the idea of impressment of sailors, providing a decrease in the cost to raise/maintain new and current ships and causing a hit to growth/prosperity/trade income (andd/remove as needed).

Edit: I did a fair bit of reading on my lunch break (I was bored).

If you look at the Scandanavian leidang then it is a levy in place of taxation that produced a reasonably well-equipped and trained naval force capable of extended operations (historically up to an around Scotland). So in game terms you have the ability to call out the leidang, it musters fairly quickly and is reasonably competent, but the province probably has a lower taxation level (and is more resistant to tax increases).

Option 2 is the impressment of merchant/coastal sailors into the navy, doesn't get you ships, but it helps keep your current and new ships crewed. This is functionally a form of foraging for naval units.

The last option (that I can see) is the seizure of merchant ships for use. This one should directly hit trade holdings, as well as prosperity. The in game benefit though is a new unit, the downside is that you are going to piss off the local guilder and probably make all of the others hesitant to deal with you.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 06:48:21 am by X-CJS/Ruormad Coumain (Tristan) »
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Offline Yggdrasil (DM Andy)

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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 12:06:44 am »
The general prosperity hit works fairly well if you want to spread the pain reflecting the fact that losing the ships hits tithes, tax collections etc - the alternative of hitting trade level simply concentrates the pain on the trade level holder.

I can see arguments both ways, but game balance probably argues for the former approach.  That said, the latter is a good way of causing conflict if that's what you want  :D 

In the latter approach though there would need to be some defense to stop the ruler raising a leidang at whim / to punish a trader for some slight - so making it at least a contested roll would seem in order unless the ruler is pillaging or the like, that however adds to complexity.

I can see some realms - or possibly the guilds - having the option of raising better quality ships, I suspect that raising generic Anuirean craft would result in units able to transport troops but which were no good in a fight.
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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 01:14:44 am »
Quote from: Regent Guide v 2.20
Naval levies (leidang)
Coastal provinces (not including river provinces) have the ability to raise naval levies. This works in a similar fashion to calling up the land-based levy (prosperity loss, negative growth etc.), except that each time the naval levy is called one trade holding level is destroyed (you cannot call the levy if there are no trade holding left).
The first time the levy is called you get a medium warship/merchantman (Skilled) suitable to the region/province. The next time the levy is called you get a lesser (light) type of vessel (Skilled). After that there are more of the same (but Green).
Example: In Anuire you will typically get caravels or more rarely galleys the first time and after that you get coasters or (more rarely) galliots. 
Naval levies suffer a -2 penalty to Attack, Defense, and Seaworthiness to account for their lack of weapons and  their lighter civilian crews.

As you can see prosperity loss is in the current rules as is the standard growth loss.

It would make sense for guilds to put up a defensive pool to counter leidang if they think it will be called against their will.

And it would make sense if DDC was higher than 5 if the landed ruler doesn't have an agreement with the trade holder who will loose a level.

Hardiness from guild and trade would be appropriate, but boosting the DDC to up to 9 is not enough.

I think base leidang need to be DDC 10, and then the guild/trade holdings can grant advantage/hardiness to the action pushing the DDC as low as DDC 6 or as high as DDC 14 for the first time +5 per extra leidang, just as raise levy.

Comments? 
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Offline X-CJS/Ruormad Coumain (Tristan)

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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2013, 01:53:44 am »
IMO.

A naval levy should not be able to raise military ships. If a naval levy exists it should only allow the raising (seizure) of ships suitable for troop transport/logistics use.

The leidang should be garrison/reserve ships maintained by local nobility (i.e law/manor holders) in provinces that meet the criteria (sea faring culture & coastal), probably with some role play aspects indicating the local nobility pay lower taxes, etc in return for maintaining a naval reserve.
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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2013, 09:36:16 am »

OoC:

Here follows a quote from an italicised passage in Chapter 2 of Regent Guide v.3.5 Draft 2.25:  "Law and trade holdings are never able to call out the levy."


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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2013, 10:15:33 am »
OK, and how is that relevant?
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Offline Ohlaak (Alan)

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Re: Conscripts — Levy & Leidang
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2013, 02:18:22 pm »
It isn't common for the domain ruler (liege) of a landed realm to control a majority of manors.  This means that unless he has the backing of his lords and ladies, the domain ruler won't be able to call out the levy.