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RoE Development => Regent Guide => Topic started by: X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper) on March 31, 2009, 09:51:57 pm

Title: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper) on March 31, 2009, 09:51:57 pm
Having little prior experience I am not into debating this rule; I will just like to know how the mechanics works.

Pray tell how did it work when Assan transfered his bloodline to Rashid?
Title: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) on March 31, 2009, 11:35:12 pm
I'm confused.  So if Robhan has kids they will have far lower bloodlines as his bloodline is (I presume) buffed from that he was born with given his families historic weak line - and there is effectively nothing Robhan can do about strengthening the family line as his full heir will still be way below him?  That moves bloodline from a family possession to a personal possession which is quite different thematically.

I'm struggling to see how the bloodlines don't degrade rapidly over the generations - what level do children start at?  2e average of current?  average of original?  random roll? The mechanic chosen has quite an effect on gameplay for dweebs like me.
Title: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Ilien & PCE/GeM (Linde) on March 31, 2009, 11:51:28 pm
Reading through Ad&d Birthright I can see that you get the same bonuses to BS in standard BR as we get here (Bjørns description) when commiting blood theft.

There is however added that if you slay the last living survivior of a bloodline by stabbing him through the heart you get to add 1/5th of the victims bloodline score to your own bloodline score. And you get to keep his regency. But that is hardly relevant and the rule is probably not in use here anyway.

Further more it seems that standart BR commoners can not become blooded by commiting bloodtheft.

Regarding heirs:
Why would you want to give your bloodline to an heir? The difrence of +4  BS is hardly going to make or break a realm. It is surely nothing that a good economy couldn't compensate for so why not leave your heir 50 extra gold bars and keep your blood abilities for yourself. And in a year he can have raised his BS as much as you could have for him.

Why is it that you dont grant your domain to your "Heir" with a contract stating that he must return it to you if things go poorly and then you stay as his advisor for a year or untill he get the hang of it? That surely would be the wise way to do it instead of giving +2 BS to him.

If your good you don't give him your bloodline because you can help him so much better by staying as a blooded advisor.
If your evil you might have other reasons, but still it is the smart thing to do.


What is the regents motivation for transfering his bloodline and not just his holdings now that it has been established that the powers he possess can not survive the transferance and all he can give is a slight advantage in the first year or so of his heirs rule?

Better yet.. If you are set on loosing your blood then transfere all your holdings exept for one to him and swear vasalage to him. Then reduce your bloodline each turn to grant him insane tribute of regency untill you are unblooded.

[Just rambeling here ^_^ ]
Title: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Ilien & PCE/GeM (Linde) on March 31, 2009, 11:58:19 pm
I'm confused.  So if Robhan has kids they will have far lower bloodlines as his bloodline is (I presume) buffed from that he was born with given his families historic weak line - and there is effectively nothing Robhan can do about strengthening the family line as his full heir will still be way below him?  That moves bloodline from a family possession to a personal possession which is quite different thematically.

I'm struggling to see how the bloodlines don't degrade rapidly over the generations - what level do children start at?  2e average of current?  average of original?  random roll? The mechanic chosen has quite an effect on gameplay for dweebs like me.


You add the BS of the mother and the father and divide with two. (Unless I am mistaken. And I might verry well be.)
If someone with a bloodline score of 30 has kids with someone with a bloodline score of 60 their kids will get a bloodline score of 45.

Removing the possibility of a clean transferance of blood makes it extreemly important to sleep with the right people!
Title: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Roesone/ARR (Robert) on April 01, 2009, 12:01:13 am
Regarding heirs:
Why would you want to give your bloodline to an heir? The difrence of +4  BS is hardly going to make or break a realm. It is surely nothing that a good economy couldn't compensate for so why not leave your heir 50 extra gold bars and keep your blood abilities for yourself. And in a year he can have raised his BS as much as you could have for him.

Because parents usually do irrational things for their children :) And any advantage, regardless of how minor it may seem, is better than no advantage at all ;)


Better yet.. If you are set on loosing your blood then transfere all your holdings exept for one to him and swear vasalage to him. Then reduce your bloodline each turn to grant him insane tribute of regency untill you are unblooded.

Again.. if only our characters had access to the BR rulebook  ;D

Title: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Ilien & PCE/GeM (Linde) on April 01, 2009, 12:43:27 am
Regarding heirs:
Why would you want to give your bloodline to an heir? The difrence of +4  BS is hardly going to make or break a realm. It is surely nothing that a good economy couldn't compensate for so why not leave your heir 50 extra gold bars and keep your blood abilities for yourself. And in a year he can have raised his BS as much as you could have for him.

Because parents usually do irrational things for their children :) And any advantage, regardless of how minor it may seem, is better than no advantage at all ;)
Quite true, but even letting them running the realm is putting your people at a disadvantage.


Better yet.. If you are set on loosing your blood then transfere all your holdings exept for one to him and swear vasalage to him. Then reduce your bloodline each turn to grant him insane tribute of regency untill you are unblooded.

Again.. if only our characters had access to the BR rulebook  ;D


Not true, only if our characters observed the world they live in OR had access to the RoE II Rulebook. By the standard BR Ad&d rulebook it would be smarter to transfere your bloodline to your heir as they would get your whole bloodline score in place of their own.
And it makes more sense to me if it was that way.

Beside that. Rules in the BR(RoE II) rulebook are not ooc knowledge that our characters can not have or obtain IC. It is like the laws of physics is for our world! Laws of physics can be discovered and used to your advantage!
 

But I can see that it makes for interesting conflicts when a regent retires. You leave your realm weak when you transfere it to your child or other heir. So not only have your realm lost its lvl 13 ruler it has also lost 50% of its regency income and all of its enemies know that it is weak... For surely history must have shown that realms are best ovethrown right after an heir has assumed the throne.

In this setting I would find it just as likely if not more that a regent dies without transfering his bloodline than he transferes it and retires. The reason is that you leave your realm weak if you retire so you risk that your heir will loose it. So in an attempt to keep stability and prosperity in your realm you hold on to the power untill it is to late for the ceremony.

And dont worry anybody I am not actually going to try and do anything that I think would be against the spirit of the rules. EI I wont try to give my heir a greater bonus than Bjørn has said he wishes the heir to get. I just dont like that the only options you have is marriage with a high blooded or give your realm a disadvantage when you retire.
Title: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Tuornen/LF (Geir) on April 01, 2009, 01:12:00 am
I just dont like that the only options you have is marriage with a high blooded or give your realm a disadvantage when you retire.

But was that not the historically correct presumption for medieval Europe?

Marry below your station and your family will suffer for it.
Title: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Roesone/ARR (Robert) on April 01, 2009, 01:16:27 am
There is one problem with not letting a regent transfer his full bloodline to his heir. How would Avan and Boeruine maintain their great bloodlines? Who can they marry of high enough blood to keep it at 60+
Title: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Tuornen/LF (Geir) on April 01, 2009, 01:56:38 am
There is one problem with now letting a regent transfer his full bloodline to his heir. How would Avan and Boeruine maintain their great bloodlines? Who can they marry of high enough blood to keep it at 60+
Ok,

So if you have 70 BS

You marry a nice babe with 40 BS

You kid gets a 55 BS

The kid gets loads of RP presents from friends and family, get to be baron at his 18 birthday,

Dadys advisors see to all that is needed and every odd season there is the celebration as another BP is added.

When dady is old the kid is at 15 more then he was born with, 70 BS….

40 BS is not all that uncommon is it?

A great house would make sure there is an ample supply of nice babes with 40 BS….

Title: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-DM Jon on April 01, 2009, 02:02:28 am
Regarding heirs:
Why would you want to give your bloodline to an heir? The difrence of +4  BS is hardly going to make or break a realm. It is surely nothing that a good economy couldn't compensate for so why not leave your heir 50 extra gold bars and keep your blood abilities for yourself. And in a year he can have raised his BS as much as you could have for him.

Because parents usually do irrational things for their children :) And any advantage, regardless of how minor it may seem, is better than no advantage at all ;)


Better yet.. If you are set on loosing your blood then transfere all your holdings exept for one to him and swear vasalage to him. Then reduce your bloodline each turn to grant him insane tribute of regency untill you are unblooded.

Again.. if only our characters had access to the BR rulebook  ;D

 Passing bloodlines on is just an additional bonus of creating an heir. The main point is to avoid civil war and instability that follows from having no heir. Transference of bloodline is actually quite rare.
Title: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-DM Jon on April 01, 2009, 02:08:57 am
There is one problem with now letting a regent transfer his full bloodline to his heir. How would Avan and Boeruine maintain their great bloodlines? Who can they marry of high enough blood to keep it at 60+
Ok,

So if you have 70 BS

You marry a nice babe with 40 BS

You kid gets a 55 BS

The kid gets loads of RP presents from friends and family, get to be baron at his 18 birthday,

Dadys advisors see to all that is needed and every odd season there is the celebration as another BP is added.

When dady is old the kid is at 15 more then he was born with, 70 BS….

40 BS is not all that uncommon is it?

A great house would make sure there is an ample supply of nice babes with 40 BS….

 If you take a quick look through the P&H you will see that there aren't that many families with a BS of 40 or more. Almost none of the families from the South Coast or the Eastern Marches have a BS of 40 or more. Slightly more from the Heartlands do, whereas the west is mostly unknown.

 BS of 40 or more is very rare.

 Avan is most likely spending his huge RP income to increase his BS regularly, he's been around for quite a while by now. So surviving = good BS.
Title: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby) on April 01, 2009, 03:26:25 am
There's also the bloodline bonuses that come from powerful rulership - regents who win great wars, expand their domain, and complete Agendas gain in bloodline.  The heights of blood power rarely last long within a family unless they continue to rule powerfully, which makes sense.
Title: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-LPA/Gaerred Khaiarén (Gray) on April 01, 2009, 04:45:09 am
There's also the bloodline bonuses that come from powerful rulership - regents who win great wars, expand their domain, and complete Agendas gain in bloodline.  The heights of blood power rarely last long within a family unless they continue to rule powerfully, which makes sense.

I don't think I have EVER heard of a player gaining a BS bonus, with the exception of completing Agenda (and consequently 'winning' the chapter).
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper) on April 01, 2009, 09:43:57 am
To get BS bonus for completing agenda I say it must be a real difficult agenda; in my book these things should not come easy - a major agenda or if minor one of the tough ones.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: DM B on April 01, 2009, 10:06:01 am
There is one problem with now letting a regent transfer his full bloodline to his heir. How would Avan and Boeruine maintain their great bloodlines? Who can they marry of high enough blood to keep it at 60+
Ok,

So if you have 70 BS

You marry a nice babe with 40 BS

You kid gets a 55 BS

The kid gets loads of RP presents from friends and family, get to be baron at his 18 birthday,

Dadys advisors see to all that is needed and every odd season there is the celebration as another BP is added.

When dady is old the kid is at 15 more then he was born with, 70 BS….

40 BS is not all that uncommon is it?

A great house would make sure there is an ample supply of nice babes with 40 BS….

RP 'presents' are not so common, but having your Heir rule something certainly is. In the days of the Empire, the Princes and Princesses, the Heir in particular, would rule a Principality or some such, ostensibly to gain experience, but acutally primarily to strengthen their bloodlines.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) on April 01, 2009, 10:40:08 pm
Hmm, had a happy thought.

One big (& fun) difference between RoE and other BR, is the number of 'active vassals' - usually the vassals lurk below the RP radar.

However under the rules it makes far more sense to split realms up - the vassals then grant RP presumably.

Only the highest bloodlines would then have any major issue - and they just need lots of vassals pumping in the RP to keep themselves up if, for some reason, the individual wants a high bloodline.

As for retirement, I doubt anyone gives up power casually - most regent's probably only 'retire' when they fail a shuffle check or go completely loopy (in a socially unacceptable fashion, normal noble-style loopyness is of course fine).

Under ideal circumstances a handover would be gradual - Dad gives the heir a modest domain which lets junior get experience, meanwhile dad is funneling RP to junior as are other vassals, as junior's bloodline expands Dad keeps passing him more and more responsibility until junior hits their bloodline sweet spot and takes over everything leaving dad to retire to a single manor or suchlike.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: DM B on April 02, 2009, 04:37:22 pm
The key word here is 'ideally' - don't think it goes that well all of the time.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Roesone/ARR (Robert) on April 02, 2009, 04:52:48 pm
The problem with heirs throughout the middle ages was that they'd grow up too fast.. Ideally you'd want them in stasis until you died, otherwise a part of the aristocracy and your wife (Eleanor of Aquitaine hehe) would prod them to demand ever more power and authority from their father, still in his prime (40-50).

Double edged sword really.. If you think current vassals are unruly, what about an overambitious son with an inflated ego that attracts malcontents from all over the realm, let alone foreign meddlers :P
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) on April 02, 2009, 09:28:58 pm
Agree with both comments.  Frankly as long as dear old mum/dad pops their clogs when their heir hits middle age - say 21ish ::) then the system works fine.

But most people assume that 'it won't happen to me' and 'my kids are better than theirs' are natural laws, not fond illusions, and as long as people plan for a smooth handover, the system makes a coherent world.

Of course the other big illusion is that the regent will 'know when it's time to step back' and 'everyone will trust me to know best when'...
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Points East on November 08, 2013, 11:33:54 pm
OoC:

Edit:  Feel free to delete this post.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: Ruideside/OM (RP) on November 09, 2013, 02:35:57 am
OK, to what purpose?
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: Yggdrasil (DM Andy) on November 10, 2013, 01:47:40 pm
OK, to what purpose?

Simplification / consistency I suspect - it seems odd that the 2e versions allow a tainted bloodline to theoretically be far stronger than a great bloodline.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: Ruideside/OM (RP) on November 10, 2013, 02:51:58 pm
Really? It is TSR - I pretty much expect that sort of silliness from them, but it isn't really relevant. The bloodline "strength" is meaningless in game mechanic terms.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde) on November 10, 2013, 10:32:52 pm
Really? It is TSR - I pretty much expect that sort of silliness from them, but it isn't really relevant. The bloodline "strength" is meaningless in game mechanic terms.

Yeah. But only for as long as we play without blood abilities.  It is a nice thought for the future and I agree with Brandon's proposal except I would like true to start at 100
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander) on November 10, 2013, 10:42:56 pm
A clear algorithm is more important than round numbers! This is fact.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde) on November 10, 2013, 11:41:08 pm
A clear algorithm is more important than round numbers! This is fact.
Clear skies are more important than clear algorithms! This is fact.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander) on November 10, 2013, 11:59:52 pm
I said it first so my fact is more fact! In fact, it is the truest of facts in the factual land of factual facts.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: Ruideside/OM (RP) on November 11, 2013, 09:06:43 am
Sorry Linde, I don't see how his proposal in any way impacts the use of blood abilities, care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde) on November 11, 2013, 09:16:54 am
Sorry Linde, I don't see how his proposal in any way impacts the use of blood abilities, care to elaborate?
Of course.
Some blood abilities are dependent on bloodline strength.

With a clear system for BS players will gain a meta game resource for planning future blood abilities.

Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: Ruideside/OM (RP) on November 11, 2013, 11:27:00 am
Those blood abilities worked just fine before, so why the need for a change? I don't see how more precisely defining BS makes any difference to how those blood abilities function.

I see absolutely no reason to use such a strict relationship between Bloodline score (primarily a game mechanic) and bloodline strength (primarily a role playing concern), in fact the great variability in bloodline points within each strength category is one of the strengths of the system. Your enemy has a great bloodline? he may yet have less than you with your minor one -- see what i mean, it is unpredictable, which is as it should be.

Once again, the trend is to make everything known and predictable, which detracts from the game and hampers the suspension of disbelief required to play the game fully.

I would remind everybody of that age old bit of wisdom - if it ain't broke, don't try fix it.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: Ohlaak (Alan) on November 11, 2013, 12:31:28 pm
I concur with Bob. This hasn't been an issue before, so it doesn't necessarily need a change. Nonetheless, the idea is interesting.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: Ruideside/OM (RP) on November 11, 2013, 03:59:54 pm
I honestly can't see any benefit to it, other than to establish thresholds for increasing (or, Sera spare us - decreasing) the strength of one's bloodline, which was something missing from the original, in which case it comes down to messing with the cut off points of each strength category (speaking of which, for the love of all that is holy - keep the term "Tainted", it adds such a nice slap to the face to having dick-all in the way of a bloodline :))

Now the maximums one can roll according to the original BR books are as follows:
Tainted: 16
Minor: 30
Major: 48
Great: 64

So it looks to me as though the cut offs should be more along the lines of: 20/35/55/70 (or maybe 75 - after all we are talking about advancing to a "True" bloodline", that will mean even the best roll will still leave you having to work towards that increase
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander) on November 11, 2013, 04:52:24 pm
Could number of powers, modifiers for these powers and so on not be wholly dependent on bloodline strength and the categories - Tainted, Minor, Major, Great, and True - be something that is used as an inaccurate term in game?

The idea of a nasty surprise - expecting your opponent to be of a Major bloodline and therefore inferior to you - and then finding he/she is the equivalent of True bloodline, that is a cool idea.

We don't even need them for ECL purposes: At strength 15+ you get +1 ECL and so on. They're just categories.

If the term has a game-mechanical effect, I think it should be very clearly defined. That does not exclude it being less clearly defined in the game world. In the setting, those terms are something historians, bloodline scholars and so on throw around. The only way to accurately determine someone's BS is through magic and you need the subject present to do that (unless we're talking powerful scrying magic), so only a small number of people actually have accurate information on anyone's BS.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: Ruideside/OM (RP) on November 11, 2013, 08:16:13 pm
Quote
If the term has a game-mechanical effect, I think it should be very clearly defined.
Oh my! You would have hated D&D back in the early 70s, NOTHING about it was clearly defined. And the bloodline strengths are very clearly defined already - just not in terms of a nice proportional correlation to bloodline score, and there is a very good reason for that.
Title: Re: Bloodlines workbook
Post by: Stjordvik Traders/SH (Tristan) on November 11, 2013, 11:14:01 pm
I'm with Bob, I don't think that there is a role-playing (or game) benefit to having a defined non-overlapping range for bloodline levels/scores.

I prefer the variable and overlapping nature of the original Birthright tainted/minor/major/great bloodlines with the actual score simply being a mechanic used for the maximum regency generated.

If a bloodline to ECL modifer is used then set a simple equation, BS/X rounded down is the ECL modifier (and then argue about the X).
Title: Bloodline Score / Bloodline Strength
Post by: X-Points East on November 11, 2013, 11:54:12 pm

OoC:

Suggestion:

Bloodline Score of 1-10 = Weak Bloodline.
Bloodline Score of 11-30 = Minor Bloodline.
Bloodline Score of 31-60 = Major Bloodline.
Bloodline Score of 61-100 = Great Bloodline.
Bloodline Score of 101+ = True Bloodline.