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RoE Development => Regent Guide => : X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) January 25, 2009, 11:28:37 PM

: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) January 25, 2009, 11:28:37 PM
Hmm, I found myself at a loose end - well, looking for an excuse to avoid work, so made some structures.  Given Bjorn is busy, would anyone care to have a look and say if they seem unbalanced, useless, opposed to game philosophy, etc.  Thanks.

Academy
DDC   10
Build Cost   10
Upkeep   0.25
Benefits   +2 on all hire help actions.  The regent can spend RP on a 1:1 basis to influence the chance to hire help.  Using the academy costs 1 RP per action.
Description   An Academy is a centre of practical learning and training which gathers students from far and wide.  While the students are usually the ones hired.  Students are mainly low level characters, a few of medium level.  Higher level tutors and masters may be available on occasion (DMs bribery recommended).  The regent controlling the structure can permit other regents to use the Academy to attempt to recruit, while they control access however they have no influence over whom the foreign regent speaks…
Special   At the cost of a court action a season for .25 GB and 1 RP, the regent can offer a scholarship, in this case the above modifier, court/stability modifier, and half of any additional RP spent accumulate for up to 3 attempts to hire the help. (i.e. with +1 court/stability and 4 RP spend each time the modifier would go: +7, +12, +17, +17, +17, etc).  A failure by more than 10 wastes any accumulated bonus.
Modifiers   An academy may specialise in a particular field – warriors, priests, rogues, wizards or experts.  This specialisation costs a further 10 GB and 0.25 GB maintenance, but increases the benefit to +5 with respect to that class only.  Other classes are less likely to be available in a specialised academy.
Inspired by:   Small palace.

Proving grounds
DDC   10
Build Cost   10 GB
Upkeep   0.25 GB
Benefits   One active/garrisoned unit kept in the province all year gains 1 xp.  If an attempt is made to improve a unit, and the DDC is exceeded by 10 or more, the unit gains 2 xp not just 1.
Description   A military academy specifically built to provide excellent training for any unit.  The proving grounds are typically built as an extension of a fort or other substantive structure.
Inspired by   Pure guesswork

Shrine of the Patron
DDC   18
Build Cost   50 GB
Upkeep   0.5 GB
Benefits   +4 to all agitate actions in the province. Once per year cast Celestial Boon as a free action for 5 RP.  The DDC of any contest action of the temple is increased by +2.
Description   Every faith has one key individual who first laid down the foundations of its existence, Fitzalen, Torgoed, their words and deeds echo in the hearts of all those who hold to their creed.
Note   Only one per faith barring the creation / existence of a schism in the faith (not recommended).
Inspired by:   Chapel

Theatre
DDC   10
Build Cost   10
Upkeep   0.25
Benefits   +2 on all agitate actions in the same province. The regent can choose to use agitate as a free action once a season in place of their normal class free action.
Description   A theatre is a cultural centre, sometimes a house of song and music, sometimes a debating chamber and sometimes the blood and violence of an arena - the type is different for every culture.  Whatever form it takes the theatre allows the negative feelings of the population to be released harmlessly and encourages positive messages – if the manager wishes to support the province ruler…
Inspired by:   Chapel

Grand Mines
DDC   12
Build Cost   25
Upkeep   0.25
Benefits   1 extra level of trade holding is available in the province above and beyond the province level.
Description   Grand mines can be built only in mountainous terrain. They reflect deep mines, vast pumps, and canals to carry away drained water.
Inspired by:   Twin towers of Ilien

Mebhaighl nexus
DDC   12
Build Cost   25 GB or 100 RP (building at 12 RP per turn).
Upkeep   0.25 GB or 1 RP.
Benefits   1 extra level of source holding is available in the province above and beyond the normal maximum level for the province.
Description   A mebhaighl nexus is an attempt to encourage the formation of a Caermebhaighl focal point.  Over months a wizard focuses the mebhaighl of the land into a single carefully chosen and shaped focal point (generally some exceptional natural phenomenon).  During this time the mebhaighl must not be disturbed by the use of realm magic within the province or the focus is likely to be torn asunder.
Note   It is said to be much easier to create a Mebhaighl nexus around some exotic phenomena – dragon bones, certain elven ruins, vibrant underground caverns, etc.
Inspired by:   Twin towers of Ilien

Hanging gardens
DDC   14 (12 with dwarven knowledge of stoneworking)
Build Cost   25 GB
Upkeep   0.25 GB
Benefits   1 extra level of manor holding is available in the province above and beyond the normal maximum level for the province.
Description   Where normally steep hills are useless for farming, vast terraces served by fine aqueducts can turn the most barren  scrub into verdant fields of vines and other shallow rooted crops.
Note   Hills or low mountains only.
Inspired by:   Twin towers of Ilien
: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) January 26, 2009, 10:45:26 PM
Academy
Special   At the cost of a court action a season for .25 GB and 1 RP, the regent can offer a scholarship, in this case the above modifier, court/stability modifier, and half of any additional RP spent accumulate for up to 3 attempts to hire the help. (i.e. with +1 court/stability and 4 RP spend each time the modifier would go: +7, +12, +17, +17, +17, etc).  A failure by more than 10 wastes any accumulated bonus.

Hmm, I chucked that line in late - thinking about it it is maybe too much, although I'd like to think there could be some bonus for trying to recruit over several rounds, maybe just amortise RP spend at 50% reducing balance and only allow 1 try a season...
: Re: New structures
: X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten) January 26, 2009, 11:06:54 PM
Academy
Special   At the cost of a court action a season for .25 GB and 1 RP, the regent can offer a scholarship, in this case the above modifier, court/stability modifier, and half of any additional RP spent accumulate for up to 3 attempts to hire the help. (i.e. with +1 court/stability and 4 RP spend each time the modifier would go: +7, +12, +17, +17, +17, etc).  A failure by more than 10 wastes any accumulated bonus.

Hmm, I chucked that line in late - thinking about it it is maybe too much, although I'd like to think there could be some bonus for trying to recruit over several rounds, maybe just amortise RP spend at 50% reducing balance and only allow 1 try a season...

There's potential in a lot of this, though some of them seem quite strong.
How about Officer's Academy (Westpoint)? Or, if you wish to use the proving ground kinda theme, make it focused on a particular unit (dragoons, pikemen, etc.) or unit subtype (cavalry school, infantry, archers, etc.).

That way you could get bonus xp for having the structure, but not boost your entire army (there's only so much you can gain from training I guess, if you don't specialize in certain fields, and training infantry,cavarly and archers in various aspects at the same time would be very taxing).
: Re: New structures
: X-Points East January 26, 2009, 11:34:40 PM

Hmm, I found myself at a loose end - well, looking for an excuse to avoid work, so made some structures.  Given Bjorn is busy, would anyone care to have a look and say if they seem unbalanced, useless, opposed to game philosophy, etc.  Thanks.

Academy
DDC   10
Build Cost   10
Upkeep   0.25
Benefits   +2 on all hire help actions.  The regent can spend RP on a 1:1 basis to influence the chance to hire help.  Using the academy costs 1 RP per action.
Description   An Academy is a centre of practical learning and training which gathers students from far and wide.  While the students are usually the ones hired.  Students are mainly low level characters, a few of medium level.  Higher level tutors and masters may be available on occasion (DMs bribery recommended).  The regent controlling the structure can permit other regents to use the Academy to attempt to recruit, while they control access however they have no influence over whom the foreign regent speaks…
Special   At the cost of a court action a season for .25 GB and 1 RP, the regent can offer a scholarship, in this case the above modifier, court/stability modifier, and half of any additional RP spent accumulate for up to 3 attempts to hire the help. (i.e. with +1 court/stability and 4 RP spend each time the modifier would go: +7, +12, +17, +17, +17, etc).  A failure by more than 10 wastes any accumulated bonus.
Modifiers   An academy may specialise in a particular field – warriors, priests, rogues, wizards or experts.  This specialisation costs a further 10 GB and 0.25 GB maintenance, but increases the benefit to +5 with respect to that class only.  Other classes are less likely to be available in a specialised academy.
Inspired by:   Small palace.

OoC:

Perhaps the following?

Engagement Bureau
DDC:  10.
Build Cost:  10 GB.
Upkeep:  0.25 GB/turn.
Benefits:  An engagement bureau provides a +2 asset bonus on hire help actions.  As many as two hire help actions may be conducted in a given turn, without an increase in the DDC.

: Re: New structures
: X-Points East January 27, 2009, 04:19:32 AM

Shrine of the Patron
DDC   18
Build Cost   50 GB
Upkeep   0.5 GB
Benefits   +4 to all agitate actions in the province. Once per year cast Celestial Boon as a free action for 5 RP.  The DDC of any contest action of the temple is increased by +2.
Description   Every faith has one key individual who first laid down the foundations of its existence, Fitzalen, Torgoed, their words and deeds echo in the hearts of all those who hold to their creed.
Note   Only one per faith barring the creation / existence of a schism in the faith (not recommended).
Inspired by:   Chapel

OoC:

What is the annual upkeep of a Chapel of the Saint?
How does that compare to the cost of Bless the Holy Land?

What is the annual upkeep of the proposed Shrine of the Patron?
How does that compare to the cost of Celestial Boon?

: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) January 27, 2009, 09:54:55 PM
Chapel of the saint is 10/.25.  Since celestial boon is four times the cost of bless the holy land, I multiplied the CapEx by 4 to get 40.  A structure with cost 40 has upkeep .5.  So Patron became 40 / .5.

To cast the chapel blessing costs 1 RP, so I charged the Patron 4 RP for the same.  The maintenance doesn't quite cross, but that balances out on the internal rate of return scale depending on the discount factor you apply to the build - it takes quite a while to build a big structure delaying the initial payoff.
: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) January 27, 2009, 09:56:47 PM
There's potential in a lot of this, though some of them seem quite strong.
How about Officer's Academy (Westpoint)? Or, if you wish to use the proving ground kinda theme, make it focused on a particular unit (dragoons, pikemen, etc.) or unit subtype (cavalry school, infantry, archers, etc.).

That way you could get bonus xp for having the structure, but not boost your entire army (there's only so much you can gain from training I guess, if you don't specialize in certain fields, and training infantry,cavarly and archers in various aspects at the same time would be very taxing).

I was figuring 1 unit at a time - not as many as you wanted - should have specified.  In terms of topping out that should probably dealt with in the main rules - no training after level 'x', only xp won in the field...
: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) January 27, 2009, 10:09:22 PM
Engagement Academy
DDC:  12.
Build Cost:  30 GB.
Upkeep:  0.5 GB/turn.
Benefits:  An engagement academy provides a +4 asset bonus on hire help actions.  As many as three hire help actions may be conducted in a given turn, without an increase in the DDC.
Academy-Specific Benefits:  When hiring an individual of an academy-specific class, the asset bonus is +6.  Furthermore, an engagement academy provides a +2 asset bonus on grant (promotion) and create lieutenant actions, involving members of the academy-specific class.

I wondered about grant and create lieutenant, but worried the structure was getting bloated.

I went for tall (RP spend efficiency) compared to wide (avoid repeat hire DC escalation) as the DC of hires gets extremely high - a L1 true wizard clocks in at 31 minimum (elite +5, true magic +10, bloodline +5)...  A L1 priest at a barely more attainable 26 (unless you are hoping for realm spells out of them someday).  At that sort of point the level is almost irrelevant - if you are spending  20+ RP to get the DC down to a take 20 point, then spending another 10 RP to get 5 more levels is nothing.  If you can only afford to spend 1 action and are paying 50-60+ RP to get a very low DC then hiring L as-high-as-you-can-get is not much more.  By halving the RP cost, the need to burn DC down reduces as the waste is less on a bad roll, so the hope was that level would be a spend factor, although to really get that you'd need a non-linear level cost function.
: Re: New structures
: X-Points East January 28, 2009, 02:32:12 AM

Chapel of the saint is 10/.25.  Since celestial boon is four times the cost of bless the holy land, I multiplied the CapEx by 4 to get 40.  A structure with cost 40 has upkeep .5.  So Patron became 40 / .5.

To cast the chapel blessing costs 1 RP, so I charged the Patron 4 RP for the same.  The maintenance doesn't quite cross, but that balances out on the internal rate of return scale depending on the discount factor you apply to the build - it takes quite a while to build a big structure delaying the initial payoff.

OoC:

Upkeep of an Imperial Palace is 1 GB/turn.

: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) January 29, 2009, 10:29:40 PM
Both of the larger palaces are out of sync, perhaps unsurprisingly given the fluff context - I attach the list.
: Re: New structures
: X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander) February 22, 2009, 03:32:20 AM
This was an idea I had. The cost of maintaining a big network of ley lines can quickly get steep (as it should be), but the drain is on regency points... which are needed for spells. Since the Alchemy spell offers us a way to turn regency into gold, I think there is room for a way to change the regency cost of a ley line network into a gold cost.

Alchemy allows a mage to turn Regency Points into Gold Bars at an exchange rate of 4 to 1. This goes the other way, but at a 2 to 1 rate... so 100% poorer conversion rate. I do not think this will be game breaking, it will allow mages with a steady income to maintain a larger ley line network without reducing the RP they have available for spells. Only those with a income base will want this building, so it is not for every mage (that way we won't have to wonder why everyone hasn't build one of these things).

The last part about mixing maintenance and start-up cost might be too much of hassle. The simple solution is to have it be all or nothing - either it has to support the entire ley line, or it has to be turned of.

Ley Line Nexus
Description:
The Ley Line Nexus maintains the Mage's ley line network for him. It become slightly more stable and difficult to disrupt, but the advantage is mostly that the Mage can support the network with magical components instead of his own power.
The Nexus can take many shapes, but some kind of conversion device is needed - this usually takes the form of a forge into which magical components from across the land are thrown. They are burned in the magical fire and thus sustains the Ley Lines.
DDC 12
Build Cost 10
Upkeep 0.25 GB + 0.25 GB per 1 RP cost of the Ley Line.
Benefits
The Nexus must be built in a province in which the Ley Line to be affected originates, terminates or has a hook-up there. The Nexus allows the Mage to turn the Maintenance cost of the Ley Line, including all extensions and hook-ups, into gold bars instead. For each 4 RP that would be needed to maintan the line, 1 GB is used up.
This gold represents magical materials gathered and bought throughout the land. Plants gathered at sources, magical charms, spell components, etc, are gathered and sacrificed at the nexus.
This also makes the Ley Line the nexus maintains slightly more stable, granting it a +2 modifier to it's SR versus attempts to tamper with it.
The downside of the Nexus is that it tampers with the flow of Mebhaighl in the province. This can weaken the barrier between the worlds, making shadow world incursions more likely or make it easier for magical beings to gain entrance. What this means exactly is up to the GM, but there should be a 10% increased risk of magical events in the province.
The Nexus must either be turned completely off or on, there is no halfway. Either it supports the entire ley line, or it does nothing - in which case the +2 bonus to SR disappears.
Inspired by: Alchemy spell

EDIT: Boosted the conversion rate, made it more expensive and made it all or nothing. I like this version... Perhaps time to ask the dms if I can actually build this thing, once I get the cash :P Conversion rate might still need to be 1-3 instead of 1-4 though...

Hope this is not considered thread-jacking... if so I apologize.
Not a lot of comments on the other buildings suggested, they look good to me, though the academy description needs to be clearer. I have trouble understanding exactly how it works.
Also, note that the Mebhaighl nexus grants the equivalent effect of a 6th level spell - enhance source. 25 GB is a lot though, seems fair.
Perhaps it would be an idea to require Research action in order to build structures that are magical in nature? Perhaps including religious buildings (finding the right prayers, consecrations, and such).

: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) February 22, 2009, 10:06:05 AM
Hmm, don't you need gold for spells too?  I'd have thought it would be in even shorter supply for most than RP?  Plus in RoE RP are only worth half the usual amount spells aside...

I'll have another think about the academy, but as it would only be used at the start of a game to fill out slots maybe its not a structure that anyone would ever actually bother building
: Re: New structures
: X-Osoerde (Alan) February 23, 2009, 01:48:05 AM
Some of the structures are simply too complicated from the prespective of DM management, IMO.  I am thinking about the Academy (I like Brandon's version more).
: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) February 23, 2009, 10:49:55 PM
I agree that a rolling track for the academy is harder for the DM - although the player should do the actual tracking.  A 1:1 RP cost instead of the usual 2:1 as the structure power would avoid the need to track things turn on turn and still have a significant impact.  My concern with a +2 bonus is that it would make the building useful only for hiring administrators which is not currently a huge issue from what I see.

The problem I'm seeing with hire help at present is in trying to build 'replacement PC' or 'Useful classed lieutenant' type characters - the DC smashes 40 easily for any hires that are spellcasters.  My worry is that the loss of the regent will be utterly unfixable, Robhan clocks in at a DC around 59 if I read the rules correctly (which I hope I'm not), as a new regent would be a driving 'DC must be 1' sort of issue that would be a cost of 1 GB, 1 action, and 116 RP to get an equivalent - Haelyn knows how they afforded him even with a take 20 action to drop the cost to 78 RP - or why the Aegis didn't chuck in a few extra RP/GB to get someone much higher level (his level is a trivial part of the cost).

In practice I don't see how they - or any other temple/source domain could afford that sort of price - which means that if any temple/source domain loses its regent then it is basically eliminated as a domain.  Given that job #1 of any regent is to arrange for an orderly succession (the throne must have an heir) I'm looking at a 'take 20' action and more than a season's income as being necessary to get someone who might, if they survive several adventures, be ready to succeed when Robhan fails a shuffle check.

Of course I may be missing the point - Jon's mentioned that you should be building up adventurer-quality looey's by, well, adventuring - but the level cost is fairly minimal cost-wise and if you've spent 60-70 RP buying someone then the last thing you would do is send them out to get killed/crippled adventuring...


Aside from academy I'd hope the structures are relatively simple - a single 'pip' on the spreadsheet sort of thing just like a bless province spell for any which increase the potential level - most of them were simple translations of existing structures.
: Re: New structures
: X-Osoerde (Alan) February 24, 2009, 03:24:52 AM
The DC represents if you just were to do some 'cold calling', if you will, for a hireling/henchmen.  In most cases though, these characters are acquired primarily through diplomacy, adventure, espionage, etc actions.

This is to say...

Robhan is look for an heir.

First, he does a research/advisor action to look for canidates. 
Secondly, he arranges a diplomacy/adventure action to see if he like the person, and get them to agree to be his successor.
Thirdly, he uses the Hired Help action

This particular plan is probably more common for the purposes of finding an heir, then simply going out and looking for some out of the blue.


Additionally, there is nothing that says that an heir is a part of your able-assistance.
: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) February 24, 2009, 10:06:03 PM
The DC represents if you just were to do some 'cold calling', if you will, for a hireling/henchmen.  In most cases though, these characters are acquired primarily through diplomacy, adventure, espionage, etc actions.

Part of the idea of the academy was to make it a more drawn out process, discrete actions are better than the rolling sum, but without a solid idea of the end result (+10? +20?) it is hard to see why you would commit significant resources up front.  That said 'take 20' to recruit a new leader is probably the norm cutting the cost a lot.

Additionally, there is nothing that says that an heir is a part of your able-assistance.

I'd expect a new leader 'out of the blue' to be very rare - if the Aegis has a 2nd priest able to cast realm spells with a reasonable bloodline then that NPC should demand an active role in running the church - not just wait on the sidelines and hope to leap into the top post.  Similarly for Robhan to ignore so talented an individual (for fear of losing his position?) would be gross dereliction of duty - whether friend, rival, or enemy one keeps such people close and makes use of their talents - to keep them busy and focused outwards if nothing else.
: Re: New structures
: X-Osoerde (Alan) February 25, 2009, 03:46:43 AM
As far as I know, Rhobhan was never a LT or able-assistance as far as I know. 

Royce was only BARELY a henchmen when he became the High Prefect of the IHH.

The OIT probably rarely if ever has a regent that is part of able-assistance (because their heirs are chosen by Land's choice).

Ilien's regent was never Able-assistance to the count.

I don't think it is such a strange situation.


I think all of you are missing the point, when I was the IHH, I acquired Martin Royce, by sending a dispatch to the NIT (a reformist church) if he had an idea of someone who could act in the capacity of Able-assistance.

Just prior, Talinie had just gone through a civil war between the Queen of Talinie and House Royce (her major vassal).  The Hierarch of the NIT had been captured (and imprisoned) briefly (for support the Queen) and though Martin has remained loyal, the Hierarch felt that the current situation had made his ability to be effective for the NIT impossible.    I had been involved in a series of adventure actions in the area (all-around the Archduke Theron Boer, who was murdered by his vassals and later Brandon Boer and aiding them against another lost Boer, who is a Belinite).

Basically, through a storyline, Martin Royce, a cleric with access to realm magic, was acquired as a cohort (with special conditions).  I used a grant promotion action (henchmen) which was routine, to elevate him within the IHH (remember what is acceptable to a character may not be so for the domain -- and most actions are about bringing the domain along).  And lastly, diplomacy to get him recognized as my heir (that was a pain).

As far as I am concerned, if you are having difficulty seeing how to accomplish something through adding and subtracting modifiers, I think you should look for another way.

: Re: New structures
: X-Tornilen/SM (Alexander) February 25, 2009, 05:53:22 AM
Good to know, but keep in mind that some of us are new players. None of us knew that, nor do we have access to information about situations like that.

The thing is, RoE II is part roleplaying game, part strategy game, so people like to know the odds of the methods they choose to accomplish their goals. The only thing we really have to look at is the hire help action in this regard. It's hard to compare the odds of something where we have no idea of the underlying mechanism (eg. how adventure and research actions affect getting a npc into your retinue).
: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) February 25, 2009, 09:21:53 PM
I'm with Alexander on the newbie point - with the extra point that getting a third party to run the domain from out of the blue via adventure is not something that most domains would expect surely?  The 'normal' promotion to head honcho would surely be close to a 'buggins turn' approach.

Think of the election of the latest pope - not a single muslim / atheist / bhuddist in the mix, for that matter no protestant christians / greek orthodox, etc - in fact not merely was the running restricted to only senior roman catholic clergy, but only a tiny minority of the cardinals were even in the running with one given almost a clear run for the post...

I would certainly support making a potential heir gained via an adventure have something 'extra' - the domain took a significant risk in the adventure and so if its member (the PC) survives it should see a bigger reward - but the current set up seems to assume that replacement PCs pop up out of thin air.

My concern from a domain perspective is 'which of us will succeed him in 10-20 years' - as a player I know that the view is irrelevant generally due to metagame issues but from a RP perspective it would be a driving concern that there was no suitable heir in the domain.

A realm, law or guild holding has far less trouble getting an heir of course, and wizard realms are different in that the wizard basically is the domain, but for priest domains the spells, true, ritual, realm magic, bloodline +25 combo (minimum) is a killer on top of the +5/10 for elite/heroic character and +5 or so minimum for level.  If the regent can't cast domain spells, then the domain is going to have some very angry regents demanding their bless land spells in short order!

A lot depends on how lethal adventures are - so far the examples make them sound extremely dangerous with missing body parts the norm, as a result they sound like a desperation measure, not a standard growth mechanism.
: Re: New structures
: X-Osoerde (Alan) February 26, 2009, 03:42:49 AM
Adventuring was the way in which to acquire the NPC.  Diplomacy was to get the domain to accept it.  Diplomacy is VERY common when it comes to issues around heirs.


I just think that you are looking for a hard-and-fast rule when their isn't one, and frankly, the rule would be extremely limited. 

If you want an heir, train them.  Find a level 1 cleric, or even a child, and use training actions to mold them (find such should be a very easy task) -- at least this way you don't have to worry about realm magic etc, they will acquire it as they level.

OR -- start with a unblooded character; they can at least be taught the basics of realm magic and once they have a bloodline finish learning it (the wonders of unspent feats).

OR -- poach a cleric from another domain.

I just don't see an issue with the rule per se, I just think a little creativity and poetic license is needed.

PS. I hijacked this thread so we should move it to another.
: Re: New structures
: DM B March 01, 2009, 10:13:39 AM
Listen to wise Alan!

I'll look over the able assistance DCs, haven't spent too much time balancing them, but the main point is that a really good 6th+ lvl heroic wizard should represent a MAJOR effort to gain the services of. Now, getting a good (3rd lvl) unblooded administrator (expert) should be fairly simple for any decent court (i.e. you should be able to take 10).

To dos: Look over exiting structure, maybe add a few more (maybe I should get help with this one - volunteers?) and check DDC for hire help.
: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) March 02, 2009, 10:53:45 PM
Listen to wise Alan!

I have it on good authority that doing so can be distinctly hazardous to your realm and one should always look for at least 2 levels of subterfuge...

I'll look over the able assistance DCs, haven't spent too much time balancing them, but the main point is that a really good 6th+ lvl heroic wizard should represent a MAJOR effort to gain the services of. Now, getting a good (3rd lvl) unblooded administrator (expert) should be fairly simple for any decent court (i.e. you should be able to take 10).

Oh I agree it should be difficult - but at present the rules encourage you to steal an heir from another domain if one is needed, but otherwise smack down any potential heirs (to prevent dissent) and certainly avoid encouraging them to grow as they will simply be stolen.  I'd expect the rules to encourage growth (people of ambition go either up or out and the wise manager ensures that the good ones go up - at the appropriate speed...) but make stealing fairly difficult - merchants may swap easily, but would Boeruine expect to steal an heir from Avanil?  Should the Aegis recruit an heir from the local temple of Azrai just up the road - realm & temple domains in particular have very distinct cultures that discourage much switching.

To dos: Look over exiting structure, maybe add a few more (maybe I should get help with this one - volunteers?) and check DDC for hire help.

Happy to help with structures, although being new to RoE may not be a good choice as I'm still learning the mechanics, the hire help action, as I note in the other thread is mixing two very different things as far as I can see which causes much of the problem.

I note that Alan's work around (hire a moderate level character who hasn't 'spent' their feats and then just spend them to get realm magic) while presumably effective is avoiding the issue at best if they can just spend the feats as soon as they join...
: Re: New structures
: DM B March 02, 2009, 11:02:40 PM
The revised Realm Magic chapter + the revised Characters and Domains chapter will hopefully help a bit. We have already briefly looked at the simplified rules for AAs and skill levels; expect more along those line, also regarding magic. And that has to tie in with the AA rules and the actions that hire/promote them etc.

Some design choices:

AAs (and by extension regents) belong in a level category (low, medium etc) - actual level is just fluff. Call him 3rd lvl or 1st level; for the purposes of the RoE game he is LOW level (if you played table-top and took him adventuring, then his real leave could be interesting to flesh out, but that is beyond the scope of THIS game).

He also has one or more classes; fighter, rogue, noble, wizard etc. Actual numebr of levels in a class will not matter (once again, fleshing out a cherished NPC is still allowed, but not required and won't impact his abilities on the domain level).

They can still be Professional/Elite/Heroic. Most AAs will be Professional (and won't have any PC classes; lost of experts I would imagine), but key NPC can be Elite, or even Heroic.

So now your Steward can be a Professional Mid-level Aristocrat/Expert

More late...probably have to split this into a separate topic as well.
: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) June 06, 2009, 02:46:04 PM
Ok, thinking more about chapel of the saint.  The standard is fine as a 'generic' chapel, but lacks any personification for the saint.  I figured that increasing the cost and adding a mainly fluff power would make sense.

Cost: Increase to 20 GB.  No maint increase.  DDC 12.
Requirements: Chapel's gotta have soul.  You need to tie the Saint to the effect and your church with a cool description.
Benefits: As normal chapel but 1 of:

Academy.  Bonus to one training action per season within the province. (I don't know how the normal action works, but this sounds thematic - a centre for contemplation / a famed training ground, etc).

Centre of order.  The monks/clergy are famously frugal and orderly, and the structure can try and administrate the selected type of maintenance (chosen via initial fluff) once per season. (basically the clergy act as an AA for the purposes of ply trade:administrate once per season).

Diplomacy.  +2 bonus to one diplomacy action in the province per season.  (weaker than small palace, but no increase in maint)

Inspired.  +2 to hire help once per season for someone with similar skills/whatever as the patron (i.e. a patron of arts inspires artists).

Magnificent.  Once per year +4 to a local agitate action not +2 (must be same season as bless cast).   (This one might be too good, although it is 1/year only)

War I.  Allied units in the province are inspired to gain +1 defense. Up to 1 unit per temple holding level can benefit.

War II. Allied units in the province are inspired to gain +1 offense. Up to 1 unit per temple holding level can benefit.

War III.  One garrisoned unit can be trained in the province per season as a free action.  (Is it too good with a garrisoned unit?  The cost saving isn't much for units that benefit from training i.e. unskilled ones).

War IV.  One unit can be mustered in the province per season as a free action (i.e. as if the domain was at war).

Watchful.  +2 to espionage actions within the same/neighbouring province once per season.

Are these overpowered?  The idea is mostly just to add some coolness to the chapel's and distinguish between them...
: Re: New structures
: X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten) June 06, 2009, 04:00:38 PM
They sound good in general, but some seem more powerfull than others and I lack some options.
Taking an example: The RCS is building a chapel dedicated to Egris Enlien (the one who got killed by his brother).

I see him as a diplomatic/peacefull person. Choosing Diplomacy, the chapel would give bonuses also to actions that might work in non-peaceful ways. Not excactly in the spirit of the saint.

The War-actions seems a bit overpowered (speaking as one currently fighting against enough bonuses in the forms of hills, defensive positions and npc-wizards who use me as test-subject.)

How about:
Trade: gives a minor income bonus (not like bless, but perhaps a small percentage of the overall income)

Peace: decreased chance of rebellion/unrest or in general just making the populace less inclined to violence.

and remove some of the war-stuff, or degrade it somewhat... the training one seems cool.
: Re: New structures
: X-DM Jon June 06, 2009, 06:00:57 PM
I like the general gist of your thinking.


 However, all structures have certain conceptual limits:
- All abilities are permanent, no yearly abilities. The only semi-exception to this rule is the halls of learning that allows 1 admin re-roll each turn.
- No magical abilites in structures. Offense and defense can't be influenced by other means than magic, morale can.


Ok, thinking more about chapel of the saint.  The standard is fine as a 'generic' chapel, but lacks any personification for the saint.  I figured that increasing the cost and adding a mainly fluff power would make sense.

Cost: Increase to 20 GB.  No maint increase.  DDC 12.
Requirements: Chapel's gotta have soul.  You need to tie the Saint to the effect and your church with a cool description.
Benefits: As normal chapel but 1 of:

Academy.  Bonus to one training action per season within the province. (I don't know how the normal action works, but this sounds thematic - a centre for contemplation / a famed training ground, etc).

 This shouldn't be a chapel at all, but an academy with the same cost and equal abilites as the halls of learning.

F.ex. It could give a +4 bonus to training actions and knowledge: Military. In addition it could supply a training action to all aa's training at the academy. The aa's may not do adventure or travel the turn they're training at the academy (unless it is in order to travel to the academy). And the action still goes against their character action limit - however this structure conceptually allows aa's to train twice each turn.

Centre of order.  The monks/clergy are famously frugal and orderly, and the structure can try and administrate the selected type of maintenance (chosen via initial fluff) once per season. (basically the clergy act as an AA for the purposes of ply trade:administrate once per season).

 Conceptually possible. But to have a structure do what aa's normally do, seems somehow wrong to me. Why not just build six of them and spare your domain the trouble of admins permanently? No, I think this should stay with the aa's.

Diplomacy.  +2 bonus to one diplomacy action in the province per season.  (weaker than small palace, but no increase in maint)

 I can see why a good looking palace would gain you a bonus to diplomacy, but why should a shrine? Remember, no magic.

Inspired.  +2 to hire help once per season for someone with similar skills/whatever as the patron (i.e. a patron of arts inspires artists).

 I like it. Though it's probably more appropriate to have it cost the same as a standard shrine.

Magnificent.  Once per year +4 to a local agitate action not +2 (must be same season as bless cast).   (This one might be too good, although it is 1/year only)

 No annual bonuses.

War I.  Allied units in the province are inspired to gain +1 defense. Up to 1 unit per temple holding level can benefit.

 Boosting defense is a magical effect. +1 to morale perhaps possible - IF the army first goes and bow their heads at the shrine, seeking the blessings of the saint. Or something like that.

War II. Allied units in the province are inspired to gain +1 offense. Up to 1 unit per temple holding level can benefit.

See above.

War III.  One garrisoned unit can be trained in the province per season as a free action.  (Is it too good with a garrisoned unit?  The cost saving isn't much for units that benefit from training i.e. unskilled ones).

 Again, no magical effects. This sounds more like a military camp of some sort, i.e. not a shrine.

War IV.  One unit can be mustered in the province per season as a free action (i.e. as if the domain was at war).

 Sounds good, the warrior saint inspires people to train more etc.

Watchful.  +2 to espionage actions within the same/neighbouring province once per season.

Don't know about this one, it's interesting though. The effect should probably only work within one province. And maybe reduce the cost to a standard shrine. But what would cause the effect?

Are these overpowered?  The idea is mostly just to add some coolness to the chapel's and distinguish between them...
: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) June 06, 2009, 07:48:09 PM
Andy quoth:
Ok, thinking more about chapel of the saint.  The standard is fine as a 'generic' chapel, but lacks any personification for the saint.  I figured that increasing the cost and adding a mainly fluff power would make sense.

Cost: Increase to 20 GB.  No maint increase.  DDC 12.
Requirements: Chapel's gotta have soul.  You need to tie the Saint to the effect and your church with a cool description.
Benefits: As normal chapel but 1 of:

Academy.  Bonus to one training action per season within the province. (I don't know how the normal action works, but this sounds thematic - a centre for contemplation / a famed training ground, etc).

DM Jon
This shouldn't be a chapel at all, but an academy with the same cost and equal abilites as the halls of learning.

F.ex. It could give a +4 bonus to training actions and knowledge: Military. In addition it could supply a training action to all aa's training at the academy. The aa's may not do adventure or travel the turn they're training at the academy (unless it is in order to travel to the academy). And the action still goes against their character action limit - however this structure conceptually allows aa's to train twice each turn.

Andy
 Hall of learning seemed OTT for the idea I was aiming at - Maybe just +1 or 2 to the train action?  Or one AA only per season as their action?  The idea was that some saints would be noted for their wisdom and experience.

Centre of order.  The monks/clergy are famously frugal and orderly, and the structure can try and administrate the selected type of maintenance (chosen via initial fluff) once per season. (basically the clergy act as an AA for the purposes of ply trade:administrate once per season).

DM Jon
Conceptually possible. But to have a structure do what aa's normally do, seems somehow wrong to me. Why not just build six of them and spare your domain the trouble of admins permanently? No, I think this should stay with the aa's.

Andy
 hmm, I'd struggle to find 6 saints to cover the areas in any particular temple, the idea was to reflect a legendary saint noted in one of the relevant areas - their chapel then acts as a centre for like minded people.  In practice an AA attempting to administrate and the structure should be identical unless you have a special aa.  Thinking about it administration isn't very heroic - I'd figured this one would be for temples of avani/sera as it didn't fit the martial faiths, but maybe it doesn't work thematically for them either...

Diplomacy.  +2 bonus to one diplomacy action in the province per season.  (weaker than small palace, but no increase in maint)

DM Jon
I can see why a good looking palace would gain you a bonus to diplomacy, but why should a shrine? Remember, no magic.

Andy
 Some saints are militant, some are diplomatic - so a shrine to a saint of Nesirie might be dedicated to a peace maker, a shrine to Haelyn recognise a great lawmaker, the idea was that the staff attracted to the shrine, the library, etc within, have a body of knowledge, follow certain interests and teachings, etc which is then reflected by a bonus in the specific diplomatic area.

Inspired.  +2 to hire help once per season for someone with similar skills/whatever as the patron (i.e. a patron of arts inspires artists).

DM Jon
I like it. Though it's probably more appropriate to have it cost the same as a standard shrine.

Andy
  well it's a bonus above the usual, so some extra cost seemed appropriate, I didn't want to get bogged down playing with costs when I didn't know if they worked or not so just stuck with +10 Gb for each.

Magnificent.  Once per year +4 to a local agitate action not +2 (must be same season as bless cast).   (This one might be too good, although it is 1/year only)

DM Jon
No annual bonuses.


Andy
 rats, it would be overpowered if it was more often...

War I.  Allied units in the province are inspired to gain +1 defense. Up to 1 unit per temple holding level can benefit.

DM Jon
Boosting defense is a magical effect. +1 to morale perhaps possible - IF the army first goes and bow their heads at the shrine, seeking the blessings of the saint. Or something like that.

[colour=blue] sure, I just had the idea that a martial saint might make people fight harder, to me its mostly a fluff outgrowth.[/color]

War II. Allied units in the province are inspired to gain +1 offense. Up to 1 unit per temple holding level can benefit.

See above.


War III.  One garrisoned unit can be trained in the province per season as a free action.  (Is it too good with a garrisoned unit?  The cost saving isn't much for units that benefit from training i.e. unskilled ones).

DM Jon
Again, no magical effects. This sounds more like a military camp of some sort, i.e. not a shrine.

 Well, as the Aegis some of my shrines will be military camps, as they will be dedicated to priests of war - many if not most Haelyn / Cuireacen saints will be military heroes of some sort.  Having people train 'in the saints name' seemed to fit.  As the action is free with a war action it didn't sound too bad - maybe a bonus to train unit success would fit better than cutting the cost/removing the court action cost.

War IV.  One unit can be mustered in the province per season as a free action (i.e. as if the domain was at war).

DM Jon
Sounds good, the warrior saint inspires people to train more etc.

 that was the idea - the same thinking as war III but reflecting in a slightly different mechanic.

Watchful.  +2 to espionage actions within the same/neighbouring province once per season.

DM Jon
Don't know about this one, it's interesting though. The effect should probably only work within one province. And maybe reduce the cost to a standard shrine. But what would cause the effect?

Andy
 I was trying to think about other gods - Eloele and Sera may not have many military saints, but they will have some damned cunning ones...
: Re: New structures
: X-Points East June 07, 2009, 03:26:25 AM

Ok, thinking more about chapel of the saint.  The standard is fine as a 'generic' chapel, but lacks any personification for the saint.  I figured that increasing the cost and adding a mainly fluff power would make sense.

Cost: Increase to 20 GB.  No maint increase.  DDC 12.
Requirements: Chapel's gotta have soul.  You need to tie the Saint to the effect and your church with a cool description.
Benefits: As normal chapel but 1 of:

Are these overpowered?  The idea is mostly just to add some coolness to the chapel's and distinguish between them...

OoC:

More benefit than,--and equal maintenance to,--the standard?

In an hypothetical context, with an assumed end of structural variegation, the standard chapel's Bless the Holy Land spell could conceivably be replaced by a different first-level divine realm spell (without changing DDC, Build Cost, and/or Upkeep), no?

: Re: New structures
: X-DM Jon June 07, 2009, 12:42:01 PM
Heh, looks like I've missed the mark again. Bjørn has actually opened up the possibility for annual effects, not to mention the ability to cast spells using a chapel. I hadn't noticed that part before Brandon made a note of it.

 Brandon's idea ain't bad. A lvl 1 realm spell is "attached" to a chapel at the time of construction.
: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) June 07, 2009, 06:20:55 PM

More benefit than,--and equal maintenance to,--the standard?

For double the up-front cost - and only a very minor extra benefit (the plan anyway, some may be OTT)

Basically the maintenance appears to be .25 Gb per 25 Gb cost - excepting the palaces and grand cathedral, so increasing the cost to 20-25 shouldn't increase the maintenance.

But yes changing the existing L1 spell, or the existing +2 to agitate, should also be doable, although those become very different structures - plus bless the holy is a 'surprisingly cheap' spell from a realm perspective, and one of the most commonly used.
: Re: New structures
: X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten) June 07, 2009, 07:12:04 PM
I wouldn't mind a chapel casting shadowward once a year...  ::)
If that's doable, I'll build three... at the very least!
: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) June 07, 2009, 07:51:58 PM
Hmm, I think that Elenie might like that one too... Thinking more about it, the BTHL benefit is in it being L1 instead of L2 or L3 - so it would make sense to have 'any L1 spell and +2 on a thematic action' as an alternative.  I'm not sure that the Aegis would make use of Mark of the True Believer, but others might, otherwise unless you are at war frequently I'm not sure how useful the L1 spells would be...
: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) June 12, 2009, 08:19:39 PM
Ok, I've played with alternate skills and spells - page 1 of the attached sheet.  I've re-jigged the enhanced chapels I was thinking about into alternates, hopefully I twigged Jon's comments correctly...
: Re: New structures
: X-Points East November 20, 2009, 09:09:42 AM

Theatre
DDC   10
Build Cost   10
Upkeep   0.25
Benefits   +2 on all agitate actions in the same province. The regent can choose to use agitate as a free action once a season in place of their normal class free action.
Description   A theatre is a cultural centre, sometimes a house of song and music, sometimes a debating chamber and sometimes the blood and violence of an arena - the type is different for every culture.  Whatever form it takes the theatre allows the negative feelings of the population to be released harmlessly and encourages positive messages – if the manager wishes to support the province ruler…
Inspired by:   Chapel

OoC:

Maybe increase the DDC of this to 12? . . . Also, perhaps it could be stated explicitly that a Theatre does not provide a lieutenant with access to Agitate as a bonus class action?

: Re: New structures
: X-Points East November 20, 2009, 11:26:21 AM

OoC:

Somewhat relatedly, perhaps the DDC of some structures in the Regent Guide could be increased?

: Re: New structures
: X-Points East November 28, 2009, 12:56:39 AM

I like the general gist of your thinking.


 However, all structures have certain conceptual limits:
- All abilities are permanent, no yearly abilities. The only semi-exception to this rule is the halls of learning that allows 1 admin re-roll each turn.
- No magical abilites in structures. Offense and defense can't be influenced by other means than magic, morale can.


Ok, thinking more about chapel of the saint.  The standard is fine as a 'generic' chapel, but lacks any personification for the saint.  I figured that increasing the cost and adding a mainly fluff power would make sense.

Cost: Increase to 20 GB.  No maint increase.  DDC 12.
Requirements: Chapel's gotta have soul.  You need to tie the Saint to the effect and your church with a cool description.
Benefits: As normal chapel but 1 of:

Academy.  Bonus to one training action per season within the province. (I don't know how the normal action works, but this sounds thematic - a centre for contemplation / a famed training ground, etc).

 This shouldn't be a chapel at all, but an academy with the same cost and equal abilites as the halls of learning.

F.ex. It could give a +4 bonus to training actions and knowledge: Military. In addition it could supply a training action to all aa's training at the academy. The aa's may not do adventure or travel the turn they're training at the academy (unless it is in order to travel to the academy). And the action still goes against their character action limit - however this structure conceptually allows aa's to train twice each turn.

OoC:

Two proposed structures follow. . . .

Halls of Land Warcraft [Generic]
     DDC:  = DDC of Halls of Learning.
     Build Cost:  = Build Cost of Halls of Learning.
     Upkeep:  = Upkeep of Halls of Learning.
     Benefits:  The Halls of Land Warcraft provide a +2 asset bonus on any action dealing with an army, whose type is "Military".
     In addition, a domain with Halls of Land Warcraft may re-try one failed quartermaster (Expense Reduction:  Army) check per season.

Halls of Sea Warcraft [Generic]
     DDC:  = DDC of Halls of Learning.
     Build Cost:  = Build Cost of Halls of Learning.
     Upkeep:  = Upkeep of Halls of Learning.
     Benefits:  The Halls of Sea Warcraft provide a +2 asset bonus on any action dealing with a navy, whose type is "Military".
     In addition, a domain with Halls of Sea Warcraft may re-try one failed purser (Expense Reduction:  Navy) check per season.

: Re: New structures
: DM B February 10, 2010, 11:24:50 AM
Lots of good stuff here; I'll consider adding some to Chapter 5 - or making an appendix.
: Re: New structures
: X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) February 10, 2010, 10:54:39 PM
Do you want me to table it all up?  I did much of the whining from recollection.

Also I've been wondering about co-operative builds - mainly due to the Parthenon for the Conclave, say double cost, everyone has to pass a build check, but then all parties construct an element separately, the whole building having effect only on completion of all elements (perhaps for builds with many components a severely restricted effect if only 1 or 2 parties were outstanding).
: Re: New structures
: X-Points East February 23, 2010, 06:32:16 AM

OoC:

Naval Base:  Naval Base (http://www.twilightpeaks.net/forum/index.php?topic=715.msg8159#msg8159)

Great Naval Base:  Great Naval Base (http://www.twilightpeaks.net/forum/index.php?topic=715.msg8160#msg8160)

Mines & Affluent Mines:  Re: Affluent Mines (http://www.twilightpeaks.net/forum/index.php?topic=869.msg9906#msg9906)

Superior Embassy:  Superior Embassy (http://www.twilightpeaks.net/forum/index.php?topic=873.msg9915#msg9915)

: Re: New structures
: X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten) March 23, 2010, 09:59:22 AM
I recall waaay back in RoEI (around turn #52 I think) where I contemplated something along the lines of a granary.
Looking at how prosperity is the first victim in war, and seeing how soldiers plunder everything they can, perhaps it is time to have a look at it again?

Would it be possible to build a granary-thingy, perhaps a structure that ignores/negates the first negative prosperity modifier from famine (negative event) or foraging?
Alternately it could help keep prosperity in the midrange, rather than take a dive. It's not something you need when everything is jolly and well after all (and so I don't think it should give bonus-modifiers into the positive spectrum), but when a province is poor, it might just help alleviate things somewhat to have a ready supply of grain under the regents thumb (thus perhaps keeping things unsteady, rather than taking another prosperity hit).

It's not really something I've thought through, just a spur of the moment thought. But it seems to me, that in a world where seven years of "summer" is followed by seven years of "winter" (which was my initial reason for wanting to build one), and war, plague and constant foraging takes place, that something along these lines might be nice.
: Re: New structures
: DM B March 23, 2010, 11:07:11 AM
Granaries are represented by stashing GB for a rainy day; seeing as how the majority of GB is not gold, but resources (grain included).
: Re: New structures
: DM B March 23, 2010, 11:08:50 AM
...but that doesn't mean that it's impossible to construct something that limits the effects of famine/foraging.
: Re: New structures
: X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten) March 23, 2010, 11:33:41 AM
Granaries are represented by stashing GB for a rainy day; seeing as how the majority of GB is not gold, but resources (grain included).

Well seeing as how I throw "grain" into an ocean of hungry mouths at an alarming rate, it might be good with a structure that freezes some of that so I can't touch it (kinda like my account at the bank  ::)), and save it for an extremely rainy day.
: Re: New structures
: X-Elinie/RiD (Niels) March 23, 2010, 04:34:04 PM
Well, foraging hit prosperity at a time where you can't really do dick about it.

Your tax is already set for the season and your actions are spent too, so there is no way possible that you can dodge the prosperity loss.

This means you, at a minimum, have to spend 1 GB and a Regent Action, assuming Take 10, to restore Prosperity in that province.

If there was a structure, which made "Emergency Tax Relief" and dumped the tax by one or more levels, enough to offset the otherwise impending prosperity loss, then it would quite possibly be worth having it built and on retainer.

Assuming you are on stable Heavy Tax, then you can, in theory and pending DM allowance, offset up to 5 levels of prosperity loss, at the cost of the tax income of course.

Still, likely to be much preferred to the alternativy. Well, yes, it is much preferable to the alternative. I know.
: Re: New structures
: DM B March 23, 2010, 05:54:52 PM
Read as: Elinie has poorly stocked granaries :-P
: Re: New structures
: X-Elinie/RiD (Niels) March 23, 2010, 09:57:51 PM
*cough*