Author Topic: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms  (Read 17960 times)

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Offline X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2009, 01:06:28 PM »
Partly culture, partly just innate. As to chaos it depends a lot on how you define it - if you see it as individual vs community then they lean towards choas due to their self-serving nature indicating chaos .  If you go on strong laws vs weak then I'd say they probably go the other way - brutally enforced laws being used to contain their tendency towards being self serving and keep the society cohesive.

The issue is whether they will be accepted as part of the realm, or what that acceptance means - after they are it is fairly irrelevant.

If acceptance means they get various rights and duties, but are second class citizens mostly then that is one thing, if they get absolute equality to the human population then that is another.

Try to remember that many people are still fighting goblins on the border, as a result the religions will be pushing the 'stand strong, fight on' ethos to ensure that the goblins of the Spiderfell, etc don't 'infect' the human community with goblin ideals and that the border defences stay strong.  A softer message about, or simply recognition of, the more civilised goblins within human realms undermines the former message - so is seen as an attack on anuirean culture rather than defense of the goblin culture.

Obviously not all religions, since there are goblins living peacefully in Medoere. Granted, that might still be a ploy and will be investigated, but even with that and the possibility of a Fell invasion in mind, the notion that some might wish for something else besides constant warring with humanity presents itself :)

Offline X-Alamie (Alex)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2009, 08:10:32 PM »
A few questions regarding the discussion, before Alamie joins, or not, this debate during the S&C:

1/ How open-minded do you plan to make your IC rulers? I mean Anuire is not the XXIst century of Earth, and even so, our societies are strained, somehow, by intra-humans relationships, cultures and so on. As for the Goblins, we are talking about the hereditary servants of Evil in Anuire since the dawn of times, humanoid beings, and bowing usually to their own evil-minded god.

2/ Would be interesting to see what the DMs might come up with internal events for humanoidophiles rulers? What would say your average Elinian when gathered in the Ducal host alongside Bob-Two-Toes from, formerly Markhazor, former cultist of Azrai or KK, now smiling with the benevolence of an LPA follower?

The debate might be IC confusing, OoC challenging, but remains interesting.

Offline X-Osoerde (Alan)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2009, 10:23:12 PM »
I was going to respond to the thread, but since I hate the idea of the RoE having a regent 'tele-conference' -- I am going to hold off until the S & C.  I totally haven't decided what to do with them anyways.
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Offline X-Tuornen/LF (Geir)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2009, 11:07:55 PM »
A few questions regarding the discussion, before Alamie joins, or not, this debate during the S&C:

1/ How open-minded do you plan to make your IC rulers? I mean Anuire is not the XXIst century of Earth, and even so, our societies are strained, somehow, by intra-humans relationships, cultures and so on. As for the Goblins, we are talking about the hereditary servants of Evil in Anuire since the dawn of times, humanoid beings, and bowing usually to their own evil-minded god.

2/ Would be interesting to see what the DMs might come up with internal events for humanoidophiles rulers? What would say your average Elinian when gathered in the Ducal host alongside Bob-Two-Toes from, formerly Markhazor, former cultist of Azrai or KK, now smiling with the benevolence of an LPA follower?

The debate might be IC confusing, OoC challenging, but remains interesting.

OOC:
Very good points from Our good and wise neighbor.
I’m all new here but the latest pre- S&C IC talks are kind of strange. My role here is far away from religious matters but kindness, decency and believing in each individual’s uniqueness will need to be put into contexts of the time and place.
Would We in the west (in-game west) feel obliged to trust a known member of a group or race we as humans have a life-and-death struggle with? We know there are elfs, and then there are elfs, but that about it. And should We see the Orogs as potential allies until proven otherwise when we find them squatting in our razed parts? I do not think so. Then where is the limit? Could there be benevolent intelligent undead too?

Could the DM gently adjust the direction on matters of Goblins please. If there is a game-plot on making the matter a source of tension between human realms then just ignore my request and let loose havoc. Because havoc there will be. If goblins can be, in some cases, educated to be civilized, and mind you humans are not all the civil so the target is low, then it is the dammed duty of a good and just person to try before one just exterminate the lot. Saying that most are evil and will always be evil is not good cause for slaughter. And a village of goblins doing some human sacrifice surely warrants intervention, and prosecution of criminals, but not slaughter of the common goblin and his family.
If, that is, it is known that some goblins can be educated to become civilized. But that is, as pointed out, a modern rooted idea....
Laela Flaertes, By the Grace of Haelyn Duchess of Tuornen

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Tuornen / LF

Offline X-Tuornen/LF (Geir)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2009, 11:23:00 PM »

Another letter is sent from Medoere.

"Lords and Ladies,
---//--
I wonder how often a creature has sought to leave it's past behind it and seek a better way of life, only to be trampled to death by a mob, fearful of that which they do not know. Bear that in mind, before you throw the killing stone."

- Kaven Enlien, Baron of Medoere

OOC;
Take heed! Take Heed! Lest You All be trampled by the Goblin Paladin Donkey Charge (most are a bit small for horses) as They bring the wrath of the righteous upon the self serving hypocritical clergy....
Redeem now! the goblin paladins are massing in their hamlets!...
Great idea for the comic-strip section btw…

www.fantasygallery.net/zug/Half_Orc_Paladin.jpg
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 11:27:33 PM by Tuornen/LF (Geir) »
Laela Flaertes, By the Grace of Haelyn Duchess of Tuornen

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Tuornen / LF

Offline X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2009, 12:17:20 AM »

....Would We in the west (in-game west) feel obliged to trust a known member of a group or race we as humans have a life-and-death struggle with? We know there are elfs, and then there are elfs, but that about it. And should We see the Orogs as potential allies until proven otherwise when we find them squatting in our razed parts? I do not think so. Then where is the limit? Could there be benevolent intelligent undead too?...


Intelligent? Well seeing as the battle against the Eyeless One's hordes was only won by the timely intervention of the undead King Raenech and his hordes of moaning, shrieking what-not's and seeing as Undead King Raenech had quite a few things to say to the dumbfound humans afterwards, I guess that answers your question :D
Look at the passage between year 1531-32
or From the old boards... the horses mouth, so to speak  ;)

Benevolent? Not sure... He did save quite a few that day?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 12:19:26 AM by Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten) »

Offline X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2009, 12:47:10 AM »
Benevolent?  Not a chance.  His intervention was welcome, but his intentions do not bode well for the future.  Jaison Raenech was an ambitious and ruthless man in life, even after his conversion.  From what little he said in his appearance there, I don't think death has done much to warm him.  :(

Offline X-Tuornen/LF (Geir)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2009, 04:56:38 AM »
Look at the passage between year 1531-32
or From the old boards... the horses mouth, so to speak  ;)
Benevolent? Not sure... He did save quite a few that day?

OOC:
The myths of old really capture the minds of the commons do they not? Well One should take heed of these myths; learn from them, and of them, to better the future, both for common and noble alike.


Thanks, I have yet to read the entire old forum. Just trying to mingle into the flock in ROE II, and doing so with my PC's head still attached to her body so to speak...
I’ll keep low a while yet, at least in IC…
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 05:06:56 AM by Tuornen/LF (Geir) »
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Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2009, 11:14:03 AM »
My thought is threefold 1) what do the gods think, 2) what does the leadership of the Aegis think, 3) what does the common man think.

1.  Only Bjorn can say whether goblins are accepted as priests/worshipers by the human gods.  If not then the churches are very unlikely to be well disposed to them, if they are - or some divine message of a change comes down, then that again makes a huge difference - missionaries replace paladins.

2. Herein lies politics.  As leader of a church with a remit of militant defense, the concern is about mixed messages.  How can Robhan say 'be vigilant and guard your homes against raiders' when simultaneously saying 'goblins are perfectly normal people, you are safe with them as neighbours'? how can he say 'Ghieste is threatened by goblins of the Spiderfell, let us send our children to fight and die defending the people' while also saying 'goblins are no better or worse than Anuireans'?  While unfortunate for 'the few' goblins who are good, or just want to avoid trouble, the need to defend the children of the Andu against the goblin realms forces him to take a fairly stern stance.

A rather unfortunate catch-22, goblins cannot prove that they are good, skilled, virtuous etc unless the Anuireans allow them to do so as a member of society.  The Anuireans will not welcome them as members until they prove themselves good, virtuous, etc...

3. a modified extract from some fluff I sent poor Niels (he of the worn off ears) on how I perceive race relations are likely to go...

Bigotry - right and wrong
Think about the issues between white (anuirean) and black (goblin) in America today.  Now imagine that everything that the worst rednecks of 50 years ago said was true, they are treacherous, they are lazy, they steal unless constantly watched, they breed incessantly, they take the jobs of honest poor men, they are insolent, they are crude, they eat people (not sure if this one is RoE canon or not), they worship false gods.

Now say that instead of 2-3 centuries of slavery, you have 20-30 centuries of wars and raids - goblins are not just inferior, they are dangerous, every child is told to do as they are told or the goblins will carry them away, every war hero fought/died bravely against the villainous goblins, every heroic play has its goblin villain, every family has a list going back generations of dead heroes to avenge.  Even now, centuries after abolition the hatred is a vivid memory in some places.  With goblins it is ten times worse and will last well beyond human lifetimes.

Now add economics and politics.  The goblins are poor, they have zero investment capital (it is with the churches/nobility mostly), that means that the boss in a business is inevitably a human, the learned are always human, those from the old school with all the plum government posts are always human... those prejudices just get stronger as the years go by and the goblins sense of victimhood rightly grows - why work when the humans get the profit, why serve when there is no chance to rule?  The law is a weapon used to keep us down...

If goblins are given rank and station, what will the nobility say when a goblin accuses a noble maiden of a crime and the judge is a goblin?  Green hands on white thighs, goblins look to their own, they want revenge, you can't trust them with one of us...

So even if a ruler says 'I hath decreed, from this moment forth peace shall rein', the hate and prejudice will remain and not simply evaporate.  Frankly, relations are going to be godawful. The goblins will not be accepted (aside from a few 'pets' who 'prove' the others are just lazy and vicious) for centuries - and will not accept the humans either.  Hatred will be rife, ancient feuds common.

What does the regent do when local law clashes - the goblin has a legal right to take the chicken, it was running in the field and is thus is his in goblin law, the human has a right to the chicken, it was on his farm/he bought it - the law of the king generally doesn't go down to that sort of level.  At peasant concern level it is common-law for justice handed out generally by the mob, except the law isn't common to both parties.  If the goblins are equal then so surely is their culture - and the ideals of their culture (might makes right, look after #1, you have what you can take and hold) are fundamentally opposed to the ideals human culture (reciprocal debts, be honest, etc) - are the goblins just to be told 'everything you say and do is wrong, learn from your betters now?'

Expect constant beatings, 'murders', 'raids', 'reprisals', etc, etc - from both sides.  Expect corrupt officials turning a blind eye or actively helping out thugs, expect goblins (rightly) complaining that their complaints are ignored and (wrongly) complaining that they are being discriminated against (the human craftsman will probably be better and certainly fit in better with the workforce).  Expect naive young folk to seek missionary duty to 'help the goblins' to be murdered, raped, eaten, etc to huge uproar amongst the great and good - something must be done!  Expect courts to rule that a goblins word in evidence is less persuasive than a human's, that any human killing a goblin is defending themselves - and any goblin killing a human is committing murder and so on down the ugly list of hate and prejudice.

Robhan can order his domain otherwise and push the 'law is colourblind' angle, and as law is a religious obligation to his people he may even have some success, but most of the Aegis will consider Robhan a fool for ignoring the ‘clear’ guilt born and bred to goblins.  Think the deep south and local law approach to the Klan - the people attracted to the legal posts were precisely the people who formed and led the Klan, good family men who wanted their culture and community to be strong and endure and their families to be safe from the brutes...

Goblins, hill-kittens of the land…  We need a PETA in the game to brush up the goblins image, so far Neils seems to have volunteered...
Robhan Khaiarén
High Marshal of Haelyn's Aegis
Work hard, walk with honour, be justly rewarded

Offline X-Elinie/RiD (Niels)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2009, 07:20:05 PM »
HA has no holdings in Sutren Hills.

You are implying that a regents holdings do whatever they want, even against direct orders to the opposite.

The population is listed as "Goblin". There is currently no mass effort to put more humans than absolutely neccessary in there. Thus, no innocent settlers to be offended.

Those who go, are well brifed on what thye will be facing. Obviously, people who really hate or fear goblins are not going to take posts there. (While its not always voluntary, there are degrees of freedom of choice for people working there).

But, basically, I don't think I should justify, in excessive detail, how Rashid is going to try and handle it. So to a large degree I'm gonna have to let most of the negative expressions stand unopposed.

But indeed, it'll be interesting times. I ask only that all who read these pages remember, that its far from certain that any little problem even reaches the ears of the zealously inspired.

I'll just remind you all, that we are not talking about hill-kittens as being the image Rashid tries to give them. What the tone is, is that they are going to live by the rules of greater Anuire. (this still pisses off some people, but hey.)
Formerly: His Grace, Patriarch Rashid ibn Daouta, Last Imperial Duke of the Eastern Marches, Duke of Elinie, Master of Sutren Hills, Holy Paladin of Avanalae, Light of Reason.

Offline X-Osoerde (Alan)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2009, 09:22:24 PM »
You are implying that a regents holdings do whatever they want, even against direct orders to the opposite.

Be careful.  Holdings are absolutely NOT a monolithic representation of the will of the regent.  Do not expect that they always do exactly what you want, when you want it, and without any complaint.

I will point out.  RiD lost control of his realm in a coup -- prepetrated effectively by his own holdings (and very little if any outside/foreign influences to help).

I wouldn't for a moment assume that RiD's enlightened sentiments towards the goblins is universal for his domain (in fact, I garuntee that this view is the minority).

The population is listed as "Goblin". There is currently no mass effort to put more humans than absolutely neccessary in there. Thus, no innocent settlers to be offended.

Nope.  Immigration & Emigration is occuring naturally with or without the direct intervention of the ruler.  You can easily assume that humans are coming to Sutren Hills.

Those who go, are well brifed on what thye will be facing. Obviously, people who really hate or fear goblins are not going to take posts there. (While its not always voluntary, there are degrees of freedom of choice for people working there).


Why do you think that?  People move for numerous reasons -- and hope for a better future--prompts many to go through very dangerous situations and make very rash decisions.

But, basically, I don't think I should justify, in excessive detail, how Rashid is going to try and handle it. So to a large degree I'm gonna have to let most of the negative expressions stand unopposed.
  I  think guaging the reaction from PCs that you might want to take some advisor actions and/or espionage to determine how your domain actually feels about it. But then again, since I principally have the same issue (with Undead no leass), I totally understand your sentiments.

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Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2009, 11:20:46 PM »
HA has no holdings in Sutren Hills.

Actually the P&H shows a L0 holding - which I can only assume is purely human since I don't know if the gods accept goblin worshipers.

You are implying that a regents holdings do whatever they want, even against direct orders to the opposite.

No - I am stating the exact opposite.  So even if Robhan orders his people to accept the goblins, they are quite likely to refuse, and even directly undermine any such attempts.

The population is listed as "Goblin". There is currently no mass effort to put more humans than absolutely neccessary in there. Thus, no innocent settlers to be offended.

In addition to Alan's point, I note that a) province borders are not walled - crossings will be routine for hunters, trappers, herdsmen, etc, etc. and b) people do look at their neighbours - and react strongly to things they fear, riches they perceive would be better in their hands, etc.  I would expect the court as well to take note of anything occuring in any province of a domain - and some of them could be offended if 'their' constituents were losing out on the regent's attention and bounty.

Those who go, are well brifed on what thye will be facing. Obviously, people who really hate or fear goblins are not going to take posts there. (While its not always voluntary, there are degrees of freedom of choice for people working there).

But, basically, I don't think I should justify, in excessive detail, how Rashid is going to try and handle it. So to a large degree I'm gonna have to let most of the negative expressions stand unopposed.

Your realm, your call - but expect anything you do publicly to impact on how people see you - and generally be completely misinterpreted (why somehow people thought Robhan was declaring a theocracy when he tried to pour oil on troubled waters during the civil war with a brief enforced peace!)

But indeed, it'll be interesting times. I ask only that all who read these pages remember, that its far from certain that any little problem even reaches the ears of the zealously inspired.

Oh quite true - but you can't exactly hide 20-30,000 goblins so it is one of the less subtle aspects of your realm.  Hide an affair with a servant from the public, a routine matter, brief diplomats in secret - easy.  Hide a thousand strong army of goblin berserkers on raging warpigs - a little harder.

I'll just remind you all, that we are not talking about hill-kittens as being the image Rashid tries to give them. What the tone is, is that they are going to live by the rules of greater Anuire. (this still pisses off some people, but hey.)

Everything annoys someone, somethings annoy everyone.  Rashid has made his choice and issued his PR, if anybody in or out of his realm wants to take offence that's their choice.  If they want to show that they are offended, well, that's also their choice and no doubt they will embrace the consequences - no matter how drunk they were at the time which is generally how minor troubles in this vein this start.
Robhan Khaiarén
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Offline DM B

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2009, 08:44:01 AM »
If any goblins do worship the HA (and I'm not saying there are any) then they would do so against the wishes of the church - believe me, the HA might be a Good temple, but it also has ages long relations with goblins, and there can never ever be any peace between them. Actually, one of the HA's holy tasks is killing such filth, so that Anuire does not have to suffer their depredations.
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Offline X-Tuornen/LF (Geir)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2009, 10:14:26 AM »
If any goblins do worship the HA (and I'm not saying there are any) then they would do so against the wishes of the church - believe me, the HA might be a Good temple, but it also has ages long relations with goblins, and there can never ever be any peace between them. Actually, one of the HA's holy tasks is killing such filth, so that Anuire does not have to suffer their depredations.

Thanks for clearing that up :-)
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Offline X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)

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Re: MIRROR - Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2009, 10:56:01 AM »
If any goblins do worship the HA (and I'm not saying there are any) then they would do so against the wishes of the church - believe me, the HA might be a Good temple, but it also has ages long relations with goblins, and there can never ever be any peace between them. Actually, one of the HA's holy tasks is killing such filth, so that Anuire does not have to suffer their depredations.

What about IHH? It is not many years ago the northern parts of Roesone was raided by goblins and then held for a year by the same goblins and since IHH is state faith in Roesone its unlikely goblins receive positive treatment.
His Holiness Wallac Isilviere, Pontiff of All Anuire, High Prefect of the Impregnable Heart of Haelyn