Author Topic: Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms  (Read 12066 times)

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Offline X-OIT/Narvelon Diem-Avan

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Re: Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2009, 08:54:06 PM »
Man is born with a weakness he can barely endure, so it is for the Orthodox Imperial Temple of Haelyn to shepherd him along the path of light.  But some do not listen, and fall by the wayside to be consumed by the shadow.  So our work continues to purge the blight that they are, from the land.

Goblin kind are tools of the shadow, cruel and twisted, pawns made to perpetrate the evil of any that would bend them to their will.  Their very being is an anathema to our beliefs, our way of life, our civilisation.  So it is most fortunate that their very form marks their wicked ways for all to see.  So can the evil be plucked out and the righteous folk made safe.

We must be vigilant and guard against the whisperer in darkness, real or imagined that paints these things as virtuous.  It was ever the way of the shadow to subvert and pervert with lies and deceit.

But for those faiths that cannot but help themselves weaken, do not go so far as to give these creatures the benefit of any doubt.  If you must, let them prove themselves ten times over then perhaps there may be a case to be made, but not before.

The OIT will not weaken, will not forget.  Even if others do.
Cardinal Narvelon Diem-Avan
Orthodox Imperial Temple of Haelyn

Offline X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)

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Re: Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2009, 09:23:48 PM »
The Baron replies:

"Lords and Ladies,
I thank the Orthodoxy for making clear their viewpoint, especially since I deduce from their answer, that they do not see goblins as evil by nature as well, but rather tools, twisted by their society and beliefs.
As historicans and theologians would have it, it was the shadow-god who bent the goblins to do his bidding, just as he bend the minds and ways of other men and beasts.
But if a man can be redeemed, why not a goblin? The followers of Ruornil have to persue this train of thought, for if goblins might redeem themself or turn against their evil nurturing, then perhaps... one day... we might deprive the ancient foe of one of his tools in our realm."

- Kaven Enlien, Baron of Medoere

Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2009, 10:26:47 PM »
Lord Enlien, to slay evil may be an act of goodness, but it is not necessarily an act of law, for states and faiths rightly constrain the rights of their followers to act with violence lest chaos and blood-lust ensure.

One must consider the impact on the slayer you theorise over Lord Enlien - would you truly expect any to casually countenance the slaughter of unarmed and helpless foes?  Even of goblins that is a dangerous lesson, whither next - bandits?  Then lawbreakers?  The the idle or merely poor?  The Aegis welcomes the deaths of raiders, warbands and the like, but knows well the darkness waiting to devour those who forget their humanity - goblins may deserve death, but we owe it to ourselves to remember mercy whenever possible.  When goblin clans begin to encroach on human lands it can be justified to scour clean their warrens to deter further encroachment, when mighty realms prove themselves unyielding foes such force as is necessary to crush them may be applied - but such should be done only after grave consideration and by those trained to the task and disciplined to go no further than they must and with heavy heart at the need.

Men choose evil, or perhaps more accurately in the most case, blind themselves to good and deafen themselves to the cries of those they harm.  But goblins are, in the main, born to such condition.  While the man may be redeemed, or his children born to grace, such seems rare in the extreme for goblins and so ever will men be cherished more by the gods.  Should a rare few goblins grow to grace then they should indeed be praised, but I see no true exemplars of virtue amongst them.

As to what hinders the penitent from straying, many things do so.  How many young men grow to be pillars of their community once youthful folly is outgrown and they stand married and parent with craft?  How many such folk indeed turn with vehemence on their former lives and strive to attain righteousness?  Those who return to evil ways oft do so because they were coerced into abstinence of such and then escaped the watchful eyes that imposed restrictions upon them - the answer is thus to watch until such danger is well past.

As to good and bad choices, many we consider evil sincerely feel that they are right - they consider that mercy is folly, for in harsh conditions it robs the strong of support and so risks the community; perhaps such might have been true ages past, or in benighted lands such as far Vosgaard, yet still we priests come across such folk in Anurie today.  Others consider that great strength, endurance or the like entitle them to more, ignoring the fact that the humble horse or bull is stronger by far than any mortal man but was made to serve us.  Few choose to do wrong simply because it is wrong - save perhaps rebellious youths spoilt when young - most do so from some deficiency in compassion, empathy, understanding of the world or ones place in it.

It is however innate, it seems, in men that most hold true to certain core beliefs.  Whichever of the ancient tribes of men we look to, we find recognition of debt earned and owed, pride in the accomplishment of ones fellows, respect for piety, love for one's children and honour for one's parents lauded, exultance in life and the striving for havens of peace and joy.  In us, the gods gave an instinctive understanding for that which is good.  Such desires can be suppressed by culture - think of the bloodthirst of the Vos or the feral children raised by bandits, but even in these twisted cultures one sees faint attempts to form some code of honour by which they might live and strivings for joy.  Thus one sees that nature continues true despite the striving of nurtre to confound it.

In goblins however the opposite seems to hold true, whether reading the ancient tales of the tribes of the Andu, or the modern tales from Brecht travelers, goblin lands are ones in which these clear truths seem absent.  While a goblin might, I suppose, be taught such things, will they ever truly understand them as we do?  Plant a seed in rocky soil and but a twisted scrub will grow regardless of the care bestowed.

Remember that the goblins, like other beastmen, were twisted by Azrai to serve him as warriors, assassins and labourers - only one who was the Shadow's master in the shapings of flesh and soul could thus ever redeem the goblins for good.  To strive to teach goblins goodness will thus ever be as ineffective as baling a broken dam, the Shadow wrought in them a desire for power and violence, and struck from them mercy and other things he deemed weakness - so ever will they willingly return to darkness however far they are led towards the light.

OOC: I'm assuming that there is an equivalent tale in Anuirean, for those unfamiliar, baling a broken dam saves the village from flooding - but only so long as they keep baling the water - indicating the futility of trying to solve the symptom not the cause.
Robhan Khaiarén
High Marshal of Haelyn's Aegis
Work hard, walk with honour, be justly rewarded

Offline X-Medoere & RCS/KE (Thorsten)

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Re: Goblins as citizens, challenges of modern realms
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2009, 10:55:55 PM »
"Lords and Ladies,
Though the Haelyn's Aegis hold valid points, they ultimately fail to see some of the points first laid out before them.
'As to good and bad choices, many we consider evil sincerely feel that they are right - they consider that mercy is folly, for in harsh conditions it robs the strong of support and so risks the community' - does that not also hold true for what we know of goblin society? Mayhaps we simply fear and loathe that, which we do not know propperly?

'In goblins however the opposite seems to hold true' - the esteemed Haelyn's Aegis writes and refer to tales of old. Yet these same tales seem to indicate that once, the tribes of the goblinoid where something else. Is it then folly, to wish to restore to them, what has been so twisted by the shadow? I am not suggesting that you preach for every goblin, especially if they seek to raid you land. You would not seek to do that, even for a man, should he do the same.
Yet given the opportunity, I would rather attempt to right these creatures, for what has been wrongfully wrought upon their race by the shadows, than skewer them on the end of my blade.
Granted, one may be the quicker way to salvation for the goblinoid, but it also means that our next generations, will be facing their next generations, perhaps with the same stalemate and borders as now. If they could change, perhaps, in generations to come, an cease fire may be enacted. Or, Ruornil willing, even peace."

- Kaven Enlien, Baron of Medoere