Author Topic: Dowry  (Read 8383 times)

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Offline X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)

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Dowry
« on: September 24, 2008, 08:58:53 PM »
I often wondered how is it that certain regents get to have law holdings in other regent's domains. Yes, there's the explanation that this made game more interesting and allowed powerful regents like Avan or Boeruine the reason to meddle in their neighbors affairs and control vassals, but one rather simple concept would greatly enhance the game experience, even though it will probably be applied very rarely, and that's dowry.

When a woman of high birth was married to a knight, count or even king, it was expected that she bring with her a dowry in accordance with her rank and status, be that money, goods or estate. Usually it was the husband who controlled the dowry, but legally it wouldn't be considered legal property of the dynasty until a male son inherited it.

In Birthright it is quite concievable that instead if, for example, Avan was marrying the daughter of the Archduke of Alamie, instead of getting 30-40GB, the archduke would give "his daughter" and in fact his son-in-law, and their heirs, 2-3 levels of law. I can't dig up the actual nunbers but an estate was usually worth 10 times or more than its annual income.

This is, of course, just a roleplaying suggestion, but a dowry should be used in those few cases when our regents get to marry. How much for particular counts, barons, or dukes, I'm not exactly sure.

It was however, inconcievable, that a medieval noblewoman would marry without one.
Arvour Raemel, by the Grace of Haelyn Baron of Roesone etc, Champion of Cuiraecen

Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: Dowry
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2008, 10:27:05 PM »
10 * the income is a fairly low number in many respects, the actual value depends on tactical positioning and competition.  Interestingly this is where players and characters may collide - as a player the holding has great value to me for the 1-20 years of a game (i.e. 1 generation), as a character I would be thinking on generational terms, contrasting future income over years with cash needs now, my ability to retain loyalties of agents now technically vassal to another lord, etc.

In terms of dowry, in a world where women are more equal than our own at noble rank, I would expect dowry's to go either way depending on social rank etc of the two parties - a dowry is a very good way to 'prove' that your family is worthy of a higher social family (how could you afford so rich a dowry if you were weak?  Surely your peers will recognise you now that you have demonstrated your largesse!) or to get rid of an embarrassing child (quick, get her married before they find out she's been near an elf while unchaperoned!)
Robhan Khaiarén
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Offline X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)

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Re: Dowry
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2008, 01:57:53 PM »
I'd like to add some to this, which I overlooked and you hinted at, Andy. Actually it was common practice for dowry to go both ways. The father of the bride would give estates/money to the groom in the name of dowry, and he in turn was expected to grant estates to his wife the queen/duchess/countess/whatever for her own support and household.

Thus, it would be quite reasonable that a queen in each realm (or prince consort in female ruled realms) should have her own manors/hodings to reflect this, holdings which would, of course, be inherited by their son/daughter, but not until her/his death.

In Hungary, for instance, King Sigismund received almost 50,000 gold forints as dowry from his father in law, count Herman Cilli, and then he gave his wife Barbara dozens of castles in Slavonia (now province of Croatia - adjacent to her father's lands) which were later switched for possessions in modern day Slovakia (with the seat in the city of Trencin) that she kept until her death, and her income rivaled that of the strongest magnates which made her a power to be reckoned with in the kingdom.

I know Bjorn won't rearrange everyone's holdings for this, but it would be fun if, during the game, players who marry or give away daughters, took this into consideration.

Also, if possible (what I already mentioned in PS Roesone), it would be cool if some women of marrying age were mentioned in the various domains. Thus far I've mostly encountered fathers and sons....

and my regent's a bachelor!! :D
Arvour Raemel, by the Grace of Haelyn Baron of Roesone etc, Champion of Cuiraecen

Offline X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)

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Re: Dowry
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2008, 02:36:43 PM »
Nice post.

Could players making new alliances "invent" a daughter or other familily member to be used for a marriage including dowry etc? To make the new alliance more solid?
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Offline X-DM Jon

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Re: Dowry
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2008, 02:46:33 PM »
We don't allow for the sudden invention of daughters for a specific alliance, but all good ideas for your realm is always welcome (and may be approved or discarded at the DM's pleisure).
 There is after all Victory Points to be won in helping fleshing out your own domain for future reference. So if you think something is missing - something probably is!

Offline X-IHH/Wallac Isilviere (Kasper)

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Re: Dowry
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2008, 03:38:06 PM »
But yes invent and await moderator approval  8)
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Offline DM B

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Re: Dowry
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2008, 03:47:30 PM »
Generally speaking its OK for player to gain a small advantage if they are creative - take domain actions for example; if you make a good description, you get a small bonus to your check. If you don't come up with a description at all, you get a penalty. So if a player want to take the time to detail his family three, its OK for him to benefit (slightly) from it - consider it as sort of reward for having bothered to contribute.
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Offline X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)

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Re: Dowry
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2008, 06:41:01 PM »
Roesone's family tree is already very detailed (although it relates to Marlae, not Aruvor in the current incarnation and in fact I don't even know whose son Aruvor is :)), but I was referring to the major/minor nobles within a realm. The widow Coriel caught my eye (literally hehe, since I'm the one she has to ask permission to marry) but I've no idea how old she is for example. Then a family like the Isilvieres (also outdated I believe) who are very important within Roesone would probably have more family members than just two.

I could, for example, foresee a scenario that I marry an Isilviere and get them to be loyal, or that I marry the Coriel woman, or that an Isilviere would want to marry the Coriel woman etc. but it would take slightly more data to work with that.

Unless you're implying that players can detail their nobles too? :)
Arvour Raemel, by the Grace of Haelyn Baron of Roesone etc, Champion of Cuiraecen

Offline X-DM Jon

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Re: Dowry
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2008, 07:03:56 PM »
Please do. Though consider it what you know "officially" about them. So refrain from fleshing out all their secrets, they'll just portray how paranoid your character really is  ;D

Offline DM B

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Re: Dowry
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2008, 07:21:32 PM »
Roesone's family tree is already very detailed (although it relates to Marlae, not Aruvor in the current incarnation and in fact I don't even know whose son Aruvor is :)), but I was referring to the major/minor nobles within a realm. The widow Coriel caught my eye (literally hehe, since I'm the one she has to ask permission to marry) but I've no idea how old she is for example. Then a family like the Isilvieres (also outdated I believe) who are very important within Roesone would probably have more family members than just two.

I could, for example, foresee a scenario that I marry an Isilviere and get them to be loyal, or that I marry the Coriel woman, or that an Isilviere would want to marry the Coriel woman etc. but it would take slightly more data to work with that.

Unless you're implying that players can detail their nobles too? :)

The "Coriel woman" is in her early thirties. A good match if she's fertile. The Isilvieres are a big clan like the Bellamies, with numerous little offshoots. There will likely be one or more possible wife candidates there. The real fun would be for you to take a Bellamie wife :)

I can provide a little more into on your nobles in the update, but after that you can play around.
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Re: Dowry
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2008, 07:38:24 PM »
It was actually the usual practice that a ruler had people looking for prime husbands/wives. Which in games terms mean that you can use advisor actions to find a wife/husband for yourself, your family, etc. It was a matter of great importance - not just to the ruler, but to his entire court. And one thing is always certain - marry for love and your stability drops   :D

 Now the actual getting married part of things will usually demand some sort of pre-relationship, thus it will often be enough with a dispatch and a court ceremony. But if you want the real goods, you need adventures (rescuing her from generic evil opponent) and possibly diplomacy (getting her father to actually give you half of the kingdom that he promised when drunk on grief and wine.)

 Obviously some are boring and just point their finger at a worthy vassal, who immediately spring to!

Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: Dowry
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2008, 10:16:12 PM »
Now now, marriage is always for love, why else would bards say that absence makes the heart grow fonder if not to explain the clear commitment to love shown between noble spouses, why oft the love spoken by the widow(er) over their late spouses grave shows a deep and abiding private passion that social convention had barred them from showing in more restrained time (the last 4 married decades say).
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 12:01:05 AM by Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy) »
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Offline X-Roesone/ARR (Robert)

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Re: Dowry
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2008, 11:33:47 PM »
Spot on Andy ;)

A damsel in distress might be the correct approach if you're a lowly knight aiming at Aubrae Avan, but "in the real world" its the parents that arrange the marriage. Noble marriage is far too important for alliance forging to let silly concepts like "love" get in the way. "Love" is the invention of the troubadours anyway. Knights had wives for offspring and many other women for "lust" (hence so many bastards in history). They didn't bother much with love anyway.

If a king wants to marry a vassal('s daughter) all he'd need to was ask and they'd come running. HBO's Tudors portray this very well, how nobles jump at the opportunity to make their particular daughter the future ex Queen :D

Marrying another king's daughter is a political issue, marrying another's vassal, hmm.. that might also work but it would involve some negotiating and would require the permission of their liege.


As for detailing the nobles, I wasn't planning on making them secret spy assassins serving the Serpent, just to add some spice, a squire son here, a damsel there to make things interesting.
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Offline X-Haelyn's Aegis/RK (Andy)

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Re: Dowry
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2008, 12:05:55 AM »
I always take the view 'make it up, if its useful or funny but not munchkinism you'll get away with it - doubly so if its a mixed blessing they can have fun with' - besides, just because I write 'a true and loyal son of Haelyn with a +5 holy avenger' just means that the write up is how my PC perceives the 'loyal knight' - he could just be a Berserker priest of Belinik with a smooth tongue and the patience to worm his way into the sealed council chamber to better wreck vengeance upon the worthless vermin cringing behind their foolish thoughts of honour with his +5 paladin slayer...

The way I figure it, if I write the NPC as a 'proper' NPC with an agenda and so on that are mostly in line with the domain but give them some flaws (if they were perfect they'd have my PCs job), then the DM is more likely to work from those flaws than invent their own peculiar and alarming character aspects...
Robhan Khaiarén
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Offline X-Bellam & BC/TB (Bobby)

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Re: Dowry
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2008, 01:32:01 AM »
The "Coriel woman" is in her early thirties. A good match if she's fertile. The Isilvieres are a big clan like the Bellamies, with numerous little offshoots. There will likely be one or more possible wife candidates there. The real fun would be for you to take a Bellamie wife :)

Lysa's a bit young for marriage contracts just yet.  Maybe one of the cousins....