Author Topic: Hire Help  (Read 7034 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Torele Anviras/TA (Niels)

  • Xenophobia GM
  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Sovereign
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.028
  • Regency: 3
  • Gender: Male
  • Mage of Talinie
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2013, 08:45:00 PM »
Just to throw a wrench into the works, I like the idea of combining the sequence & cumulative method.
meaning you have to hire the person, then promote him.
Yep, the tally could be tiered too perhaps.

Also, speaking from a looooong experience as a DM (36 years), the cumulative method is going to be an annoyance for the DMs to track, especially if it is extended to a lot of actions.
We have the power of excel spreadsheets to help us. It should not be a big chore...

Offline Dhoesone/FD_(Marco)

  • Poor little Regent in a big world and in a big game
  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Noble
  • ****
  • Posts: 465
  • Regency: 2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2013, 09:52:15 PM »
Cumulative method risks to be too long in term of gameplay.

don't forget that complexity and too much work to do are the worst nightmares for every Dm running a BR-related campaign and the main causes of ruining out the campaign itself.

I' m for the classic or maybe the sequence method.
Fhiele Dhoesone, by the Grace of Haelyn Baroness of Dhoesone and Countess of Sonnelind
"You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true, and also fierce, you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her."

Offline Torele Anviras/TA (Niels)

  • Xenophobia GM
  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Sovereign
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.028
  • Regency: 3
  • Gender: Male
  • Mage of Talinie
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2013, 10:23:33 PM »
I am almost certain, that the current method is MORE work for a GM than the tally method. The tallies are just a tangible representation, where the current method's work all take place in the head of the GM. - And thus depend on his time and state of mind.

Offline Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)

  • **-Thuriene Donalls-** Bearer of the Rose Scepter.
  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 638
  • Regency: 2
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2013, 10:58:18 PM »
Cumulative method risks to be too long in term of gameplay.

don't forget that complexity and too much work to do are the worst nightmares for every Dm running a BR-related campaign and the main causes of ruining out the campaign itself.

I' m for the classic or maybe the sequence method.

Well.
Regarding complexity:
Sequenced method is just as complex as cumulative in terms of there is notes that need to be kept in an excel ark....
And classic method is just as complex, or even more so, since you can build up for one or more domain turns where you do adventures and diplomacy to get various bonuses to your final and very important roll. And those notes need to be kept AND rechecked.

Regarding game time:
If cumulative becomes too long in game play it is because the gm have rolled 15 dice for you and they all came up 1, 2 and 3.
You would not get an AA sooner by classic or sequence that way, in fact you would be right at square one with those two methods if gm rolled 1,2 or 3 for you all the time. But cumulative will have brought you to or very near to your goal after 15 sucky rolls.

If you vote for less complex, vote for sequenced or cumulative.

If you vote for the shortest in terms of game play, then vote classic or cumulative. Since only classic and cumulative have any chance of being performed in a single turn.

If you want to vote for a chance of the shortest game play and the least complex, then cumulative is the way to go.
Thuriene Donalls.
Thane of Talinie.
Supreme Hierarch of the Northern Imperial Temple of Haelyn.

"Those who hear the word of Haelyn and obey are like plants rooted in rich, fertile soil.
They will thrive, grow and be the most beautiful flowers in the garden of man."

Offline Yggdrasil (DM Andy)

  • Demigod
  • Sovereign
  • *
  • Posts: 1.029
  • Regency: 2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2013, 11:14:41 PM »
Cumulative sounds good - you could track it on the DO just like tracking locations of military units, construction, etc.

My thoughts were something like the skill challenge idea (about the only part of 4e that I liked, but I confess I never played it).  Promotion  - thinking on most structures are fairly flat - or more accurately we only see the top part anyway.  It may on be an issue for heirs, realm casters, etc.

I need to ask Matt about his views on realm casters generally - ROE II was discussing sifting the focus to the domain from the caster, if you moved in that direction big mods to deter hiring a spell caster would seem unnecessary, from recollection that was where the silly mods often came in preventing hires - as HA I got several administrators and mid-level fighters, I just couldn't hire a priest.
Sometimes the gods are neither subtle nor slow to anger

Offline Torele Anviras/TA (Niels)

  • Xenophobia GM
  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Sovereign
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.028
  • Regency: 3
  • Gender: Male
  • Mage of Talinie
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2013, 11:47:50 PM »
as HA I got several administrators and mid-level fighters, I just couldn't hire a priest.

This situation is not what ROE is supposed to be about is it though? - What point is there that a caster domain is unable to cast and have a lieutenant able to cast too?

Beyond 2 casters, additional casters have no value on the domain level so why overprice them so? - I guess the "problem" is many high level casters, so the threat of losing the regent caster becomes trivial.

The impact of that happening is brutal enough as it is though, even if a replacement is handy.

I am not a huge fan of the domains themselves providing the ability to cast. That will water out the character role completely, and any sane ruler will become a multi-purpose domain with spells and income generation.

As it is, the strongest caster is single class. The regent only collects regency depending on his class. This is a strong encouragement to divide roles accordingly. Multiclassing weakens caster ability, so most don't.

Offline Ruideside/OM (RP)

  • Otmar Messer, Lord-Commander, etc., etc., etc.
  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Noble
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
  • Regency: 7
  • Gender: Male
  • Come let us discuss this...
    • Bob's Worlds
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2013, 01:01:42 AM »
We have the power of excel spreadsheets to help us. It should not be a big chore...
Trust me, it is.
By the Grace of My Own Right Hand, Lord Commander of the Federated Free Companies, Governor-General of the Ruideside, Marshal of the Realm, and Captain-General of the Brethren of  the Black Flag.

My Tollanar blog: https://bobsworlds.wordpress.com/

"If reason won't work - try violence"

Offline Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)

  • **-Thuriene Donalls-** Bearer of the Rose Scepter.
  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 638
  • Regency: 2
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2013, 01:37:49 AM »
D&D skill challenges has the risk of failure build into when you fail enough checks. That is probably a good idea to remove that, since we a cumulating points and not successes.

The complexity of a skill challenge can be translated into the DDC. Simply put how hard is it to find the character.

skills, they will then be substituted for actions.

Actions you could possible use to hire someone:
Research- you find out what he like so you can offer it to him
Diplomacy- you "court" him
Adventure - you go looking for the stuff he wanted.
Espionage - you get him fired from his previous post/ find out his dirty secret
Hire help - you tell him how much you are willing to pay him and what information you will never reveal to people while he is loyal to you.
Finances - you set up a sweet little deal for him
Grant - you give him the stuff you found along with fancy ceremony to make him feel important and accept the darn job.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suggest that the same action can't be used more than once in the same turn towards hiring the same AA.


And we need a good base for DC with cumulative action.

I suggest this:

Hired Help by level:Base DDC
Low10
Medium16
High22
First (Best) skillDDC modifier
Proficient+0
skilled+2
Expert+6
Master+12
Second skillDDC modifier
Proficient+2
Skilled+6
Expert+12
Third skillDDC modifier
Proficient+4
Skilled+10
Expert+18
Fourth skillDDC Modifier
Proficient+6
Skilled+14
Bloodline strengthDDC modifier
weak+10
minor+20
major+30
Caster lvl:+4 per lvl

Thuriene Donalls.
Thane of Talinie.
Supreme Hierarch of the Northern Imperial Temple of Haelyn.

"Those who hear the word of Haelyn and obey are like plants rooted in rich, fertile soil.
They will thrive, grow and be the most beautiful flowers in the garden of man."

Offline Ohlaak (Alan)

  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Sovereign
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.482
  • Regency: 3
  • The Dragon
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2013, 01:45:51 AM »
What if we did a system of build points for AA's and hirelings?

NPC Class - 0 Points
Heroic (non-spellcasting) - 2 Points
Heroic (minor spellcasting) - 3 Points
Heroic (primary spellcasting) - 5 points

Low Level - 1 Points
Medium Level - 3 Points
High level - 5 Points
Very High Level - 7 Points
Legendary - 10 Points
Near-Epic - 13 Points
Epic - 20 Points

Non-Blooded - 0 Points
Blooded (tainted) - 2 Points
Blooded (minor) - 4 Points
Blooded (major) - 8 Points
Blooded (great) - 16 Points

etc.

So in concept, the Hired Help action would have a base success rate, DDC: 15, which starts you with a pool of 5 points, then the build pool is modified by the MoS (margin of success) for the action.

This is a simple action, that allows for a vast array of hired help options, but still has limits...

Offline Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)

  • **-Thuriene Donalls-** Bearer of the Rose Scepter.
  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 638
  • Regency: 2
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2013, 02:25:37 AM »
Interesting,

if I roll 18, do I then get 8 points or 6 points to build the character? 
Or am I set at what DDC I chose before I roll the dice?
For sake of arguments later, I will chose to read modified by MOS as just that.

Why include epic, near epic and legendary characters as people you can hire, if not to invite game braking number tweaking?
Same with great blood strength?

It need a lot of work.

I like the idea because it could be simple and work.



I don't like the idea because of this example: I have court 5, I get Torele to cast royal fascade on me I use an AA to aid in the hire help. I take ten. I now have a high level heroic character. at no risk. and I could for full effect get 20 before the spell runs out.
So at this point I might as well roll the dice and take the 20 rolls. Sure I wont get one each time now, but if just one of the 20 rolls come up 20 I will get a 17 point character.

That is a near epic heroic class blooded character.
Or a legendary Primary spellcaster who is blooded
Or a low level npc class with a great bloodline I can steal YAY POWER MEE!!!!!
I will have spent a little over 20 gb on getting him unless I get lucky early. But I will most likely also have gotten other useful and nearly as powerful AAs in the process.
As this show these rules can be twisted to encourage a "Hail Mary" try for a great character.

So tweaking is definitely needed to make the idea viable. But it is interesting.
Thuriene Donalls.
Thane of Talinie.
Supreme Hierarch of the Northern Imperial Temple of Haelyn.

"Those who hear the word of Haelyn and obey are like plants rooted in rich, fertile soil.
They will thrive, grow and be the most beautiful flowers in the garden of man."

Offline Ohlaak (Alan)

  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Sovereign
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.482
  • Regency: 3
  • The Dragon
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2013, 02:41:26 AM »
It definitely needs work. It is just an un-fleshed out idea at the moment.

At DDC 15, having a great court, and the support of an AA, likely just gets you the basic pool. You would need to back the action with influence to get any sort of significant pool.  As so to how the MoS affects the pool, I don't know right now, maybe 2 for 1?  I don't really think it matters largely, but it will depend on what the full menu of options for building are.  Once the character basics are selected added purchase options for personality, skills, etc will quickly diminished a point system.

Incidentally, I don't see how your concerns can't happen with any action. Abuse is Abuse regardless of the rules that are set forth.

I do like this because at minimum, it could simplify the current set of rules and afford a lot of options for DMs without over complications.  As someone who has run RoE before, it is a complex game with tons of moving pieces and complexity works to make the game overly difficult to run in a way that is fun for a DM.

Offline NRCS/LN (Mark)

  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Noble
  • ****
  • Posts: 291
  • Regency: 1
  • Most Sacred Minister, Larra Nielems
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2013, 02:54:37 AM »
Sits back, eats popcorn, watches people attempting to rework a rule turn it into rocket science.....grumbles he forgot the butter on the popcorn.   ::)
Industriousness is the virtue needed to better the lives of others.  Wealth is the reward for working to better your own.

Offline Talinie & NIT/TD (Linde)

  • **-Thuriene Donalls-** Bearer of the Rose Scepter.
  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Regent
  • *****
  • Posts: 638
  • Regency: 2
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2013, 04:58:55 AM »
It definitely needs work. It is just an un-fleshed out idea at the moment.

At DDC 15, having a great court, and the support of an AA, likely just gets you the basic pool. You would need to back the action with influence to get any sort of significant pool.  As so to how the MoS affects the pool, I don't know right now, maybe 2 for 1?  I don't really think it matters largely, but it will depend on what the full menu of options for building are.  Once the character basics are selected added purchase options for personality, skills, etc will quickly diminished a point system.
to use Influence make take ten impossible, so it is always better to take a "Hail Mary" attempt as Andy called it and try to get the best possible character.  - He wanted to avoid that so I try to respect that.

Incidentally, I don't see how your concerns can't happen with any action. Abuse is Abuse regardless of the rules that are set forth.
Well, if you don't include rules for how to make an epic great blood strength wizard, then people can't try to abuse the rules by hiring one.. - So you could try NOT to invite abuse by removing the dangling a carrots? Just like Matt is removing the P&H. You know that some people get tempted to do stupid. If you like them you remove the temptation so they can't do it. If you don't care you remove them after they have abused the rules.

I do like this because at minimum, it could simplify the current set of rules and afford a lot of options for DMs without over complications.  As someone who has run RoE before, it is a complex game with tons of moving pieces and complexity works to make the game overly difficult to run in a way that is fun for a DM.
You got me there, I have not tried to run RoE. But it seems to me, that not creating so large an opportunity for power gaming should be in the interest of the DM team in order to keep the complexity at a minimum.
And even though Matt is going to run this game very different from how roe2 was run, and roe 2 was run differently than roe1. I still think that when you bring up that you have been DM in RoE  I am entitled to expect a more well thought through idea, understanding for why giving the option to abuse encourages abuse, and the absence of bad numbers added to your idea.

The basic idea is still sound, but everything past: "What if we did a system of build points for AA's and hirelings?", is as I see it  just you showing how not to do it.

To work your idea need:

DDC directly depending on BP of character. This depend on the method of action resolution.

Action resolution needs to be either all or nothing, cumulative or sequence. To accommodate Andy's request.
Or alternatively 100% on success or half of what you rolled on failure(so if you go after a DDC 19 but only roll modified 18 you get a character as if you rolled 9. or a 3 BP character by your BP calculations. If you on the other hand roll modified 25 you still only get your DDC 19 character.) This will also accommodate Andy's request.

The ridiculous high levels and BS need to be removed.
Proficiencies need to be addressed as they are more of a power factor than what class a character has.
Caster level needs to be addressed because it is not proportionally more powerful to get a wizard lvl 7 instead of a fighter lvl 7, than it is getting a lvl 2 wizard instead of a lvl 2 fighter.


When Matt decides how he wishes to run the action All or nothing, cumulative, sequence or something else, then we can start on a point by that work in synergy with that choice.

A BP system where DDC = BP is basically also what I have suggested for the cumulative action.

And in the interest of keeping things simple, it might be easier to keep BP = DDC and then DM can tweak the BP cost to get the DDC at the level where they want it.

You can also strip the cumulative action down to only Hire help, no other actions can apply, only once per character per turn and then take it from there. It will actually make the action more transparent in terms of what you can get and how long it will take. The other things were just fluffy additions that could bring life to the story. If the DM's feel that choice make the idea of cumulative more manageable.

Nothing is set in stone.
Thuriene Donalls.
Thane of Talinie.
Supreme Hierarch of the Northern Imperial Temple of Haelyn.

"Those who hear the word of Haelyn and obey are like plants rooted in rich, fertile soil.
They will thrive, grow and be the most beautiful flowers in the garden of man."

Offline Stjordvik/Varri (Greg)

  • Varri Haraldsson
  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Scion
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
  • Regency: 1
  • Gender: Male
  • Of the crown by the bondi
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2013, 08:32:27 AM »
Great ideas being tossed around here, keep it flowing!  Below are just my "2 cents" worth based on the ideas as I understand them so far...

I think you should definitely have the AA key stats built prior to the first DDC roll (GM should pre-approve), as well as a background story.  Maybe the GM can modify what you want by +/- 2 based on this or other unknown variables, which means you may not necessarily get the EXACT AA you want, but would be the closest AA available to you (could be slightly better or worse).  This would also introduce a bit of Fog around AA's in the recruitment stage which I think would add to the game.

I like the relative simplicity of the new proposals, where a higher DDC gets a better AA, with predetermined stats/characteristics.  Any of the proposals can work, but I would suggest testing the process with a few example "stereotypical" AA builds (to see if it feels right).

I do like the concept of cumulative, so smaller realms have a shot at AA's that are closer in ability to the stronger realms AA's (though it will rightly take longer for the weaker realms to "convince" the better AA's to come on board with them vs. a more powerful realm that usually has more to offer), but there should be some sort of cap.  I think if recruitment is unsuccessful on a turn, then only ~half of the previous total of accumulated AA recruitment points earned should carry forward to the next turn.

Maybe I am misreading something, I dont understand how someone should get 20 rolls and pick the best result for the AA, I would suggest only one roll turn (unless I am missing something?).

Again, great stuff guys, i think there is a winner in here somewhere.
Varri Haraldsson,
King of Stjordvikers

"Of the crown by the bondi"

Offline Torele Anviras/TA (Niels)

  • Xenophobia GM
  • RoE3 (Rjurik)
  • Sovereign
  • ******
  • Posts: 1.028
  • Regency: 3
  • Gender: Male
  • Mage of Talinie
Re: Hire Help
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2013, 09:12:36 AM »
Maybe I am misreading something, I dont understand how someone should get 20 rolls and pick the best result for the AA, I would suggest only one roll turn (unless I am missing something?).

Hire Help is a Court action, and you can have quite a few of these each turn if you have enough money.

I think it would be wise to add a: "You can only use one Hire Help action per Turn per position you are trying to fill. Multiple Hire Help actions in a single turn will apply to different persons being sought after." Limitation.

Or something to that effect.

Assuming a cumulative approach is used. I like that one most, so hey. :)